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Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

"Somebody is lying. Either the bank is lying or Celsius is lying.” - Alex Mashinsky

EDIT: omg at the almost $5B settlement

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/13/former-celsius-ceo-arrested-... ("The FTC also announced a $4.7 billion settlement against the exchange, which will not be paid until creditors and investors have been repaid in bankruptcy proceedings.")

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All those guys are going to end up in prison. It’s fraud after fraud - biggest one being Tether.

It’s just impressive how long it all takes.

I'm also surprised Tether hasn't imploded yet, it's opacity must have saved it in the short term

There's nothing that inherently unsustainable in Tether's basic model. Take in US$, issue tokens matching them and keep the interest on the US$.

Their main problem is money laundering regs which is why they have to be opaque and offshore.

Plot twist: They don't take in US$ ! At least not legal US$, and not anywhere near the amount they claim they have.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt already multiple times that they are lying about the supposed composition of their 'assets'.

> Take in US$, issue tokens matching them and keep the interest on the US$.

Well, the issue is that they are not doing your first step, instead they are printing new ones as they want.

There's not a single audit either.

The FTC determined that the exchange is guilty of defrauding investors because Celsius defrauded customers.

And the remediation is that investors get their money back.

Kind of weird when you think about it. But it's a good reminder that the goal of the FTC is to protect investors.

I think you mean the SEC. That’s the agency here and yes, investor protection is part of the SEC’s mandate.

No, I meant the FTC which already settled with Celcius today:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/...

OK cool. My understanding is the FTC has a consumer protection mandate vs the SEC is about investor protection. So the FTC covers fair trade, deceptive and unfair business practises and that sort of thing vs the SEC will cover securities fraud, illegal marketing of securities to unqualified investors and whatnot.

Feels like they both are relevant here.

I am somewhat confused about the situation, but your own link says

> The companies also agreed to a judgment of $4.7 billion, which will be suspended to permit Celsius to return its remaining assets to consumers in bankruptcy proceedings.

This seems like the FTC claims the judgment is suspend so the normal clientele can have its money back, not any institutional investors who knowingly put their money at risk by investing into the company itself.

Just oligarchy things.

Celsius is not a bank, the customers were junior creditors. Junior creditors get paid after senior creditors. People should not deposit their money in not banks if they want guarantees on their deposits.

I'm not up on all the details of the situation, but "after creditors and investors" means $0, right? Why is a fine getting less priority than investors? Isn't that a moral hazard?

Fine is less priority than investors because the government doesn't want to be taking recourse from those harmed.

I went looking a little more, the FTC itself says something quite different, unless CNBC is calling the clients "investors".

> The companies also agreed to a judgment of $4.7 billion, which will be suspended to permit Celsius to return its remaining assets to consumers in bankruptcy proceedings.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/...

Why not both?

Because it’s an “or” rather than an “xor”.

You didn’t have to LOL

But "xor" is the operation that prevents both. So maybe you meant that it is an implied "xor" instead of an "or"?

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