Grammarly will discontinue the Text Editor SDK | Hacker News Reader

Grammarly will discontinue the Text Editor SDK

developer.grammarly.com

28 pointsiamflimflam175 comments

Reading old books (1800s and earlier) has done much more for my writing than apps like Grammarly. Much of the style is obviously dated but there was a cultural care and precision for language that remains invaluable for learning. I'm sure there's some survivorship bias here, which is a feature in my opinion.

I hope this will at least allow them to focus on their own app again. It went from “works great” to “garbles my text”, “text markers are wrongly placed or not showing at all” and a gazillion other issues it feels like :-/

I assume that LLMs leapfrog Grammarly's technology? So basically they need to double down on a moat?

Grammarly integrated some sort of LLM into their browser plugin offering. In addition to the normal grammar suggestions, you can now ask Grammarly to rewrite your text according to certain "styles". This is new as of, say, 3-4 months ago. It feels like it's using something like GPT 3.5 under the covers.

FWIW, I love Grammarly and its use has helped my career by toning down my asshole emails.

Wouldn’t specialised models for spelling/grammar outperform general purpose ones?

This is such a shame. One of the most powerful features of the SDK is now exclusive to the site itself. I can see the incentive to make this decision, but it's also going to have counterproductive results for the same reason.

Yeah, Grammarly is moving in the wrong direction for me. What I’d like to see is better integration with text editors etc, especially in a plain text environment. 99% of what I write is Markdown, LaTeX, or some other markup language, which Grammarly does not deal well with at all. LanguageTool is much better in this respect, although it doesn’t find nearly as many mistakes as Grammarly

I can see something like Grammarly being quite helpful to a non-native speaker, but if English is your native language, do you still find that Grammarly improves your writing?

Although I'm technically not a native speaker, I consider myself completely fluent, and a competent writer. I still find Grammarly or similar services quite useful, even if just to catch stupid "grammatical typos" that a traditional spellchecker would miss. I basically treat it like autocorrect.

I’ve found that it does. It’s easy to forget some of the more nuanced grammar rules, or if you’re spending more time building a sentence it can be easy to lose track of things like maintaining prior tenses.

It probably fulfills a slightly different use case than non-native speakers.

I switched to LanguageTool after Grammarly decided to block people who paid for a subscription from using their tool just because they were located in Russia ;)

Glad to see a company take the moral way, not the most profitable one. It’s disgusting how many companies happily keep conducting business with/in Russia.

Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way. Not as moral as preventing people fleeing the military draft from crossing the border, but close.

>Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way

So companies now have a moral responsibility to provide their services to everyone across the world even if they may lose money in the process or get fined for violating sanctions? That's a very interesting moral framework you got there.

So do I get you right, once a country has some person or company on the sanctions list, companies should better cease operating in that country to not get fined for violating sanctions?

No, that's a facile assertion. It's not even about "sanctions". Companies should cease operating in a country where the legal and practical risks of doing business in the country outweigh any potential profit. Russia isn't exactly rolling in the dough right now, and most goods sold in Russia now require a license to transfer[1]. Add to that the risk of the Russian government simply stealing your business away from you, and you have quite the effective deterrent.

American companies unloading their Russian assets like offices are advised by the American Bar Association to destroy everything that's not nailed down so that they do not have licensing concerns. [2]

[1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-gu... [2] https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2...

Edit: I can't reply to you, but [3] here's an example of how Russia legalized the theft of intellectual property.

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/russia-al...

Hmm. So, how can Russia steal the business of Grammarly or Figma?

A company does not need a reason to stop servicing a country. They just can.

And users can stop trusting such company and using its products.

(It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily)

>(It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily)

Huh? I never made a statement about sanctions and morality. In fact I explicitly said it is not a moral question and questioned your statement that it is a moral question versus a standard business decision.

>And users can stop trusting such company and using its products.

Of course. Freedom of association is great.

It's not about punishing those people, but about not supporting the government which is currently invading another country. You can't stop supporting the government without "punishing" the people, and it's not acceptable to keep supporting the government.

Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government.

Aren't the two of you saying the same things?

I don't think so. GP is saying that "punishing" Russian citizens by not doing business with them is immoral. I'm saying that doing business with Russian entities is immoral.

> Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government.

Yes, all of Ukraine with an actual army, drones, rockets, tanks, artillery and zillions of cash from NATO countries struggles to contain Putin's gang, and Russian people must remove him from power barehanded, while the EU help comes mostly in a form of sanctions, visa bans and cancellations of service by such companies as Grammarly.

If you don't want nuclear fallout, then yes, that is literally what has to happen.

Not to mention there are very very few cases of a foreign forceful power changes in a country working out well for the people of that country. I'd argue it's utterly immoral based on historical examples to invade a country to change it's government no matter the type of government. To say a million dead people is better than not accessing Grammarly is such a baffling statement to me.

Can you please share with me some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll?

Can you explain why you want "some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll"? Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of?

A few messages above you said,

> Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government.

I'm one of the punished people. Sure, I don't want the nuclear fallout. So please, share with me your wisdom on how should I, a responsible person, act to remove Putin from power?

> Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of?

Apparently, you were able to think of several ways how Putin could be overthrown, I'll be happy to hear them all.

It's sad you can't think of any way except literally violently overthrowing him! But I'm happy to share my ideas.

The most important thing is to build support against him. Putin isn't in power because he pays everyone so well, but because he has enough support that nobody can easily overthrow him without themselves suffering for it afterwards. But just look a couple of weeks back - Wagner has at most 50k people, and they could have succeeded. They probably would have if the russian public was outspoken against Putin, because other supporters would have joined. It's all about the key supporters, and ultimately about public support. But what can you do to strengthen suport against him?

- Spread non-russian news to people

- Tell them about the horrors the russian military is inflicting on Ukraine

- Tell people about Putins close supporters who seem to be building support against him

- Tell people about the terrible effect the war has on those drafted

Any problems?

>Putin isn't in power because he pays everyone so well

Oh he absolutely is. The wages in key riot police/FSB/Rosgvardia units have grown at a rate of ~5x or more compared to the rest of the population, they have early and lavish pensions and lots of other benefits.

And because he rules with terror and everyone vocal against him end up jailed or dead. KGB know their business well.

> But what can you do to strengthen suport against him? ...

After ~1 week public activity, you'll be apprehended by the KGB. So you'll naturally try to 'spread the information' on foreign websites, but they get blocked really fast, in a day or less. You'll start trying to use foreign VPN services, but you can't, because they are all commercial and you can't pay them with your Russian visa/mastercard because of the ban they imposed on Russians. Nice?

In the real life, not your fantasies, lots of people were very actively spreading the news about the evils of the Putin's regime. They are either dead, jailed or have fled the country.

Btw, while we're at it, Wagner never tried a coup, but you're right, they had some (very slim) chance to succeed: they had lots of weapons, including tanks, anti-aircraft missiles, etc. Anti-putin protesters don't have any of that.

> Any problems?

Yes, quite a few, actually.

> The most important thing is to build support against him.

Ok assuming you have support against him. How exactly do you deal with 5 million well-payed armed guards?

That's undoable if the population supports the government, as it is currently in Russia - and doable without much violence when government and its institutions lose legitimacy in the eyes of its population. The USSR was vastly more powerful than Russia, yet it crumbled in a very short time when people simply stopped recognizing its government as legitimate. Town governments declared self-governance and stopped following orders from the central government, and local police, KGB and army chiefs stood by and ignored orders that come from Moscow, until new legitimate leaders emerged from the people and they quietly switched sides. Why aren't we seeing anything like this in Russia? Because 3/4 still support Putin and the war. To most Russians, it's a legitimate government doing the right thing. And hence comes the responsibility.

> That's undoable if the population supports the government, as it is currently in Russia

So what exactly is your source for this information? Polls by organization that Kremlin allows to work in Russia? Did it occur to you that they are as trustworthy as so-called referendums in Ukraine regions where 97% 'voted' to secede from Ukraine and become part of Russia?

> The USSR was vastly more powerful than Russia, yet it crumbled in a very short time when people simply stopped recognizing its government as legitimate

No, not really. The USSR was broke and was extremely lucky to have a decent human being as a leader, Gorbachev, as a leader, who didn't want any bloodshed. Had some hardline monster like Andropov lived longer, everyone here world be marching in lockstep, North Korea style.

And Putin's government is not even broke, it's actually swimming in money. Sure, the war is expensive, but he is far from being unable to pay the people who guard his regime. And I struggle to find an example in history of a popular revolution overthrowing a non-broke regime.

> Town governments declared self-governance ...

To put it mildly, you have a rather distant understanding of how it all happened.

A country is its people. Unfortunate as it is, you cannot support - or harm - one without the other.

There are plenty of Russians who do not support the invasion, why punish them? Especially when they've been loyal users for a long time?

Despite any political dispute, which is not belongs here, Grammarly obviously denied Russian users because they are actually Ukrainian company.

Worth to mention that on the other hand there was some betrayals within Ukrainians who sold a heavy weapons (e.g. tank engine) to Russians even after the war started, luckily there are just a few of them.

It is no different when a government uses trade sanctions. All citizens are harmed, whether they are patriots, rebels, neutral or ignorant.

It would be much less fair you to try to judge individuals, and it would not be effective if it only affected a few citizens.

People are the country. And draft dodgers are not even necessarily against the war or the regime. They just don’t wanna be cannon fodder, which is understandable, but also doesn’t mean they should be granted asylum.

Did Grammarly help their employees to escape the draft [0] and moved jobs out of Ukraine? If so, is that moral?

[0] - https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/02/how-grammarly-works-since-...

If youre in Russia and you oppose your own government, but can't leave, you should be punished?

Ohh ya there's no possible reason they could have done that, just a completely random act.

If they're taking OP's money but denying them the service, that's not okay. You don't have to do business in Russia, but you shouldn't get to take money from regular Russians and then turn around to block them.

No good reason anyway.

Im fine with that. Most of their dev is in Ukraine. F#ck Russia.

Russia the government, or Russia as in every person in Russia including those opposing their government, those stuck there, children, and so on?

Two of the founders are Ukrainian, and they have a major office in Kyiv.

Comment of the normal person: - I'm russian, and I'm sorry my country invaded neighbor. I understand that my lack of actions partially lead to this happening. I also carry responsibility, and I'm ok with the fact that company denied service to me.

Your whining comment: - Oh, I'm so oppressed, grammarly punishes good russia. oh my.

Buddy give me your crypto wallet so I can refund you personally and gtfo.

Huh, not the OPs intent I'm sure, but this actually makes me want to give Grammarly a second look.

> just because

You realize that russia is sanctioned right? That's like saying "X stopped selling parts to nuclear reactors just because the customer happened be to in north korea"

The comment makes it sound like they were still taking the money, but no longer offering the service. If that’s the case, they’re in the wrong.

That was the case, yeah. Of course a business can decide where to do business, but if you accept customer's money, its simply not right to not give them the service just because they're stuck in the wrong country.

Is it the whole country or only some individuals of concern? I haven't really followed the news on sanctions, but I thought it was the latter.

As an American entity or an entity that does business with the US Government, you are required to get a license to transfer goods of almost any sort within Russia. [1]

The current recommendation from the American Bar Association is to destroy any goods remaining in Russia instead of trying to liquidate them for cash. If you're an American business leaving an office behind, smash the computers and the phones before you leave because you'll need a license to transfer them. If you leave them behind, that's considered a transfer too. It's a very easy way to make sure your company is bankrupt and you're blacklisted from ever importing or exporting anything ever again. Likely you will get extra super special secondary screening at the airport just for fun.

[1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-gu...

It was both. There were targeted sanctions against powerful individuals, the government, and certain Russian industries, but lawmakers and public opinion also explicitly urged sanctions/private withdrawals from Russia from organizations that were providing service to the country to protest the war.

I'm sure that preventing average everyday Russians from using Grammarly is going to have a material impact on Vladimir Putin's executive decisions.

I mean, yeah? He wants to stay in power, so he needs the population to support him and his supporters enough that they don't violently overthrow him. Objectively, do you think him being overthrown is more likely if:

a) there are no sanctions against stuff like this

b) there are sanctions against stuff like this

I honestly don't think it matters to an autocrat whether the largely powerless people he doesn't care about can or can't access a web site. But judging by the votes, this is an unpopular opinion. The HN Tribe Has Spoken though and I accept its verdict.

You basically can't send or receive money with any russian person or institution right now.

It's not the whole country, but as a practical matter it's difficult for small companies like Grammarly to determine whether any customers are on the official list of sanctioned entities. Since they probably receive very little revenue from Russia it's safer from a legal compliance standpoint to just block the entire country.

There are also some practical problems with getting payments out of Russia.

This reminds me of an old Russian saying: "It's like trying to shear a pig: too much squealing, not enough wool."

Grammarly compared to nuclear reactor parts. Now that's some gold medal mental gymnastics

My country has sanctioned Russia. I can't even sell a t-shirt if it's being delivered to Russia. I can't accept a credit card if the address terminates in Russia. It's not nothing personal, it's just the law.

I'm used to this. My country has sanctioned many people before: Cuba, North Korea, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc. Once the war is over... the sanctions will be removed.

Until then, I accept sanctions as a resonable alternative to actually going to war, and drafting 18-20 year olds to go die in a foreign land.

ITAR restricts exports of Nuclear parts, weapons and other Scary Stuff all the time based on what they are.

Sanctions restrict all economic interactions with specific entities (countries, businesses, individuals) based on official displeasure with those entities.

So Grammarly is almost certainly NOT subject to ITAR restrictions (IANAL). Exporting software like this (ie selling it to someone in another country) is usually governed by EAR, which is a rule set like ITAR but for normal civilian stuff and thus not very strict.

So you are correct, Grammarly is not export-restricted the same way nuclear parts are. Both nuclear parts and SaaS (and everything else) are restricted from sale to Russia because of sanctions. Those sanctions were put in place when Russia invaded Ukraine for basically no reason and started committing war crimes.

…I’m very content with the sanctions on Russia.

Totally legit comparison

Business depends on people following the rules of business. Countries engaging in unprovoked invasions of their neighbors aren't the right people to do business with.

Sooo was that 2003 invasion to Iraq provoked? Or we give it a pass because Iraq wasn't a 'neighbor' to the invading country?

For what it's worth, Sapling.ai (a Y Combinator startup) offers an SDK with grammar/spell checking as well as other LLM-powered functionality. Disclaimer: I'm on the team.

The availability of LLMs and the lack of good VSCode markdown support is why I canceled my subscription this year. It’s not adding enough value in 2023 to justify the cost.

What have you switched to using? I have the same pain point with Markdown support. I've played with a few of the ChatGPT integrations and haven't loved any.

I’m in the same boat. I have been manually copy pasting stuff from ChatGPT.

Can someone please help me read this situation? What are the potential benefits to Grammarly of removing support of this form of the Marketing by Tech channel?

I speculate that it was cannibalizig their own product by providing the relatively same quality of service at places where users already get stuck rather to forcing them to migrate to their products.

Like myself, I’m pretty ok with the weary rough grammarly plugin for Sublime Text implementation and therefore I’d tried and deleted their iOS keyboard app, haven’t installed any of their browsers plugins and so on.

does this mean grammarly will stop working in slack/google docs or is that using the first party sdk which would be unaffected

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