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Comment by smoldesu | Hacker News Reader

> Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is one of the big reasons manufacturers were pressured into non-removable batteries.

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Not even a little consideration for this has made manufacturers ditch removable batteries. The primary driver has been increased capacity, followed closely by the ability to make them much thinner and develop water resistant handsets. All other reasons are so far below these they aren't even worth mentioning.

> Not even a little consideration for this has made manufacturers ditch removable batteries.

What makes you qualified to say this? Do you work for one of the large phone manufacturers?

I think some observation and a little engineering thinking makes this clear.

In the early 2010s one of the biggest issues with smartphones was battery life. The packaging of the battery is limited if a requirement is to make it removable (i.e. it must be a certain shape, have connectors in a certain location, etc). If that requirement is removed, battery can be made to fill whatever space is available in the device.

People drop their phones in water all the time. Then call the company and complain it's broken. People get mad when the company tells them it's their fault. If you have fewer holes in a device, it's less likely to be damaged by water. A removable battery means exposed connectors sealed by imperfect covers, making them more likely to be damaged by any water ingress. So they removed that failure point.

Another issue in tech generally is end-users messing with the device internals, accidentally breaking the device, and blaming the company. Remove that failure-case by making the internals inaccessible and complaints go down.

Making the device impossible to access because of a deep-state conspiracy is just a convenient mental shortcut to believe in. I'm as annoyed as the next person about less-repairable devices but I don't think it's a conspiracy, just practical engineering.

My s5 had great battery life with removable battery that could be upgraded and was perfectly waterproof almost 10 yrs ago. I think the bigger driver is encouraging people to get a new phone when battery life inevitably declined. I used the S5 for about 6 years with no issues other than a couple battery replacements. My pixel didn't even make it 2 years before serious performance declines and poor battery life.

It must have been one of the few well-made smartphones back then. It's still hard to make a perfectly waterproof seal that last for years and is inexpensive enough to use on a smartphone. Some team has to sit around designing it, so without the removable battery and seal they could in theory be freed up to do something else

Just because something is possible to do, doesn't mean every manufacturer wants to do it

I have first hand accounts from decision makers about the challenges these decisions were faced with and have worked with many engineers in adjacent areas over the years.

While I haven't worked on phones, I have worked on tablets and e-readers. I can say that the discussions have always been around cost, ID, waterproofing, tablet thickness in the design stage. I don't think it's a stretch to say the same design considerations are at work in cell phones.

I've worked with the ID and battery teams (who also worked on phones). There was never even a hint of being pushed to non-replaceable batteries from "higher up" for "reasons". Instead, it was product specs / design parameters that drove the choice.

> There was never even a hint of being pushed to non-replaceable batteries from "higher up" for "reasons". Instead, it was product specs / design parameters that drove the choice.

Cynically, we should be so lucky to have such crudely overt messaging. I would expect the reasons to take the form of specs and design parameters and not be so blunt. The NSA has done just that in the past.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/the-n...

> Not even a little consideration for this has made manufacturers ditch removable batteries. The primary driver has been increased capacity, followed closely by the ability to make them much thinner and develop water resistant handsets. All other reasons are so far below these they aren't even worth mentioning.

Oh give me a break! It obviously makes more money to have things non-trivially-user-servicable - especially wear items like a battery.

I'm a strong advocate for right to repair... that being said, user serviceability is something that has to be explicitly defined as a requirement. However, just because something is difficult to service, doesn't mean it was designed with that in mind.

For example, designing a flex PCB with a 90 degree bend and a small inner radius like you might see on a mipi display or camera makes it extremely difficult to service, but has very little effect on initial assembly. If you design it for serviceability, you might do 2x 45 degree bends or a rounded pcb plus a stiffener above the mezzanine connector, reducing the chance it may tear or have broken joints.

I guess what I'm saying is just because it hasn't been designed to be serviced, doesn't mean it was designed to be unserviceable.

It generates more sales to tightly couple a wear item to its host, full stop.

We're talking about massive for-profit businesses here, there's zero chance this is happening ignorant of the positive revenue effects.

I've had to replace the battery on my phone due to swelling in the desert heat four times now.

How about the consideration that making an item less easy to service incurs more complaints? That's a metric too right?

I think you are overestimating how much influence beancounters and marketing people have on the design.

I live in the desert as well and in the last 15 years between me, my wife and my parents have only replaced a single battery. We buy a new phone once a year and then rotate them, so keep them a minimum of 3 years.

dude, you're voluntarily replacing phones too frequently for it to be relevant

try living in the desert without AC or spend more time outdoors... I tend to go through a battery per summer.

> try living in the desert without AC or spend more time outdoors

I'll pass... that sounds fucking miserable.

Not to rain on a good theory but removable batteries require extra space in the form factor and cost in manufacturing. Where smaller is a UX goal and cost is a profit goal, being forced by shady government agencies actually seems like a second order effect.

Keeping the mic live is a profit goal.

Cost is probably negligible as phones had removable batteries since the beginning, even cheap ones.

If conspiracy were our only worry, what a wonderful world it would be. However, dangerous developments like this happen all too often without supervillains cackling and masterminds plotting... and people make mistakes like this through innocent decisions.

We don't need to worry only about conspiracy, seemingly arbitrary design choices undermine us at every turn. No one said "if only this room-sized computer were able to fit into a speck of dust and be powered by ambient temperature differentials I could spy on everyone!"... we want those things because it is convenient. Or because it can do things we couldn't do otherwise.

The universe itself has it out for us.

That reminds me of how the CIA was able to track Pablo Escobar. He had a mobile phone that he only turned on to make calls, however the CIA was able to remotely activate and track it using surveillance aircraft.

The EU is mandating removable batteries in consumer appliances by 2027.

Removable meaning without glue or similar adhesives, and without proprietary tools. Not removable in the when you drop your phone the lid jumps off kind of way.

So with screws then?

well, that's what I'm hoping. We'll see what manufacturer make of the regulations.

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