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Comment by hghid | Hacker News Reader

Slightly tangential rant, but is anybody else becoming frustrated with the process of buying Apple products in Apple stores? For me, it started with the Apple Watch - I knew which one I wanted and was ready just to head down and buy one, but I was forced to sit through an entire "fitting" with patronising explanation on how to use the knob on the the side. Recently, I wanted to buy a new Phone. Again, I knew the one I wanted and was ready to part with cash and walk out with a box as quickly as possible - I approached a sales assistant, said: "Hi, I'd like to buy a new phone please" (or words to that effect) to be informed that if I didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over. A random store nearby that also sold phones had no issue selling me one.

The whole experience of visiting an Apple store has changed from being something I looked forward to just another shopping chore. The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided through the process, then I will ask for that. Otherwise, just sell me the damn product! I guess maybe I'm just not their target audience any more.

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Yeah absolutely. Every time I’ve been in my local Apple Store, I’ve basically been talked out of purchasing, or it becomes a huge hassle of upselling and extra worrying charges, and quite frankly, stupidity and lack of knowledge from the pseudo-smart staff. All they can do is toe the party line and what they’ve been trained to say and do, which kind of falls apart when faced with someone who has used Apple computers and products for some 25 years now. Most recently I walked in and basically said “I would just like to buy this phone right now” when I wanted an iPhone Pro Max in a rush, and the hassle that I got led to me walking out and going to John Lewis (uk department store) next door, where I said “I would like to buy an iPhone Pro Max” and had one in my hands 90 seconds later and was paying for it, at £60 cheaper than Apple.

Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.

Ballache.

Is this a new sales tactic, playing hard to get?

I think part of my comment was broadly about their softly-softly approach to hard selling not actually working at all when someone simply walks in and says "I'd like to buy this right now"

Back in 2009, buying a MBP, the salesman questioned why a CS student would want a mac over a pc. Luckily for him I wasn't considering his thoughts. I definitely didn't need that powerful of a computer and glad I switched to an air a few years later.

When I bought my windows XP computer, the salesman said “you really want a candy OS? Windows 98 is where it’s at”

Yeah. How’d that turn out, guy?

“Windows 98: It’s where the blue screens are at.”

Get in on some WinME!

Windows "Mistake Edition"

Ranked 4th in 2006 PCWorld "25 Worst Tech Products of All Time"

I've never had the kind of experience you're talking about at an Apple Store, so I'm very confused about those anecdotes.

same here. i was able to skip a fitting for an apple watch when i told them i already measured. also with buying iphones outright i've never been hassled or up-sold. i've been going to my apple store in a medium sized american city for the past 10 years.

I’ve not had such a terrible experience but I’ve had the experience of being confused trying to work out how to buy something and the shop assistant being almost surprised that someone wanted to buy something instead of just looking at things. It was smooth enough after that but I would typically order online after that (which was mostly fine except for an annoying case where they would only deliver if I showed up in person)

That situation has the makings of a comedy sketch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAG39jKi0lI

They are designing it as a show-room where you can buy items, not a self-service shop. More like a car dealership.

Because everyone loves buying at car dealerships?

People would probably like car dealerships a lot more if it was 'here's a bunch of cars you can look at, climb in and out of, and try out as much as you like as long as they don't leave the lot, and each has a specific listed price, take it or leave it'.

Same. If I'm in a rush I just preorder. Apple has the easiest purchasing experience I know of.

Maybe this is an American thing?

GC is in the UK so that's probably not it.

> Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.

Their pricing structure on basically all of their product lines is absolutely perfect from a capitalism/business perspective. They are so good at getting people to buy more than they need. It's impressive.

Well, it's not exactly perfect because I was in the mood to simply buy a basic Air, until I was pretty well talked out of it by sales staff, so instead of an easy £1099 in the till, in their attempt to turn that into £2500, they got £0. That isn't good business.

Also, the tedium of nowadays knowing that all the products will be bumped in spec in 9-12 months means that instead of excitement, buyer's remorse has already kicked in before reaching the store, for the savvy consumer midway though the product cycle. Again, not the result effective capitalism should be going for.

I wonder how representative you are of the average consumer though?

I imagine their pricing structure works well to upsell people on average, which is why they have maintained it for long.

Also, why would someone like you even go to the store; I had no issues whatsoever buying a macbook from their website. No reps, no nothing, I set my specs and clicked buy and a few days later had my product. I think most people with your profile probably buy online, and most people with the profile that fits store-goers are successfully upsold by the reps.

It is often that I see people on hackernews post as if the world was designed for them. When, in reality, they are most definitely the odd-man out.

> It is often that I see people on hackernews post as if the world was designed for them. When, in reality, they are most definitely the odd-man out.

sewing thread emoji

i'm with you on the first two lines but the idea that a certain class of person is no longer welcome at _stores_ is pretty wild

Is it? I see homeless people who aren’t even stealing get kicked out of places like Target all of the time.

I think you upset a lot of people on HN who maybe don't like the idea that some small part of how homeless people are excluded from society could be applied to them.

True.

Also, I guess people forgot about all of the “Whites Only”, “No Negros Allowed”, and “No Irish Need Apply” signs at storefronts too.

by "pretty wild" i meant outrageous, not false.

"Also, why would someone like you even go to the store;"

Errrr, because I'm out shopping? And the store is located in a shopping centre amongst other stores where I'm buying things. I fully realise I can buy online, but I can buy vinyl records, sofas, groceries and shoes online, yet I'm often in the mood to walk in somewhere where they have those things available for sale and buy one. It can actually be quicker and easier.

> wonder how representative you are of the average consumer though?

But Apple's target demograhic isn't the average person. Apple is particularly dependent on image, and one would think that they would want every customer to leave their store with a story about how awesome they are, to ensure that they keep their image polished.

Except pretty much every American has an iphone? How many americans have macbooks? Ipads? So it's most definitely for the average american. I mean, believe it or not, that's what the average american wants.

Their image is one of exclusivity, but products such as the iphone, macbooks, ipads are actually mass-market products. It's quite a remarkable thing, that the most luxurious phone you can get from Apple is what... 1500 dollars? That's affordable when you think of other luxuries, how expensive can a watch get?

I think saying apple doesn't make products for the average american consumer is really falling for their marketing. They make products that are on the upper-end of what average people can afford but they put a lot of care into presenting these as clean as possible so that people feel like they are buying into luxury. They're not in most cases.

In terms of the phone market, foldables are probably the most luxurious products right now. A foldable will run you 1800-2000 dollars for a product that you know is not designed to last more than 2 or maybe 3 years. In terms of laptops, how many people really spec out their macbooks? I would say people probably buy in the 1000-1500 range and laptops are long-lasting products. A gaming laptop can easily cost 2500+ dollars and will depreciate much faster.

So, I respectfully think you're misreading Apple's demographic. Their demographic is pretty much every adult in America and they tap onto that aspirational mindset to achieve it; which is why people who can kinda see through the bullshit might come out with the sensations that are being described in these comments.

From a business perspective it’s hard to argue that their approach isn’t working even if they don’t sell to you that’s irrelevant the only thing the bottom line cares about is the totals not individual slaws.

A 50/50 chance to make close to 3x the profit is a huge net win for Apple. It’s also why they don’t cater to the low end of the market.

> A 50/50 chance to make close to 3x the profit is a huge net win for Apple.

Revenue, not profit.

And you're going to have to convince me that it's 50/50 that a consumer who came in looking to buy a $1,000 MBA is going to be convinced to walk out with a $3,000 MBP. Because I think that number is closer to 1 in 20 (and I think I'm still being generous there).

The MBP is both more expensive and has a higher profit margin, so when I say 3x the profit I do mean 3x profit.

Anyway, most people who walk in wanting a 1,000 MBA end up buying something even if it’s a 1,000$ MBA that’s just breakeven. So no they don’t upsell 50% on a 2.5k laptop with much higher margins, but that or no sale is not the only possibility.

Some people buy nothing or what the intended walking in, other people buy an 1k laptop with extended care, others by 2.5k laptops etc. So looking holistically if they lose 200 million in profit from lost sales but make it up with profit of 100 million in 3 different categories that’s a win.

PS: Something that’s not obvious is sales people don’t use the same pitch for everyone who walks in the door nor do they all execute every sale perfectly.

> savvy consumer

Bold from you to assume majority of Apple customers are savvy consumers

I'm not even talking about salespeople upselling you in the store. I am just talking about how their product lines are priced.

For example, a maxed out MBA is just a few hundred short of a MBP. So you say to yourself, well why not just get the pro? That quickly turns into "well I can't get the base model macbook pro" and more. It's all designed so that the consumer instinctively upsells themselves before anyone in the store even tries to do so.

>in their attempt to turn that into £2500, they got £0. That isn't good business.

It IS good business. It's proven by the company's stock price and financial results. For every customer like you that leaves in disgust, there's 100 more that are happy to be upsold like this and empty their bank accounts. Consequently, Apple is the most valuable company in the world.

>Also, the tedium of nowadays knowing that all the products will be bumped in spec in 9-12 months means that instead of excitement, buyer's remorse has already kicked in before reaching the store, for the savvy consumer midway though the product cycle. Again, not the result effective capitalism should be going for.

Yes, it IS. Again, the company's financial results speak for themselves. Customers are happy to buy new Apple stuff every year, and the company is profiting enormously.

If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at all the idiots that buy into this.

Just say ""I appreciate your efforts, but no upselling, please.""

What a miserable experience!

Meanwhile I had the opposite experience in a Google Store recently. I picked a phone case off the shelf in 10s, told the nearest employee I wanted to buy it, and he immediately whipped out a credit card scanner and I bought it right there in 30s. Didn't even need to go to the checkout counter or anything. It probably helps that that store is less crowded than the Apple store, but their training at least seems to involve making the purchasing flow as efficient as possible.

There's gotta be a lesson here: if your customer is ready to hand you money, best you just go ahead and take it without further delay.

Is that the lesson though? It seems people are falling over themselves to buy stuff at Apple stores despite these annoying and awful experiences, and Apple is the most valuable company in the world.

It seems the lesson is to treat knowledgable customers like morons using patronizing staff and try to upsell them as much as you can, even if it makes them leave the store in disgust.

Well, to be fair, they don’t know who’s knowledgable and who’s not?

I just order my stuff online, walk in, and pick it up. Not sure that it’s super frequent I have a “I need this hardware in 30 minutes or less” situation

It’s a brave commenter who tries telling Apple they’re doing retail wrong.

I’d guess Apple wants to avoid their shops feeling like a supermarket, to avoid commoditisation. They want it to be like buying a work of art, where each one is unique and special. You need a knowledgable curator to guide you.

I know that for us on HN it’s all bullshit, but it’s a very, very successful strategy.

Its nothing new either, luxury brands (eyewear, purses, cars, whatever) have discovered this decades if not century ago, why do you think people actually buy say Versace suits?

And I disagree HN crowd 'looked through' this, the amount of tribalism and emotional irrationality that almost any Apple-related topic here brings is probably unparalleled.

I think the overall delayed and selective launch is attributed to the reasons you mentioned. They know they'll have to get this right 17 years after the initial iphone was released. I'd probably do the same thing if I were the head of commercialization/distribution. If they screwed this up (selling a few hundred Ks of units on a global release in the first few months), the stock will get hammered

Well, obviously not comparable. Price of case < salesman salary for the extra time << iPhone. So it does not make sense to invest extra time to get an upsell. If they can instead get you to spend an additional $100, then spending that extra time makes money.

TLDR: cheap stuff -> as quick as possible. Expensive stuff -> take time to ensure the sell and try for an upsell.

Apple and Google stores work the exact same way for accessories.

Not necessarily. I already have a MBP but I wanted something lighter to bring to coffee shops or use in taxis, so I bought a nicely specced MBA. Yes I could have gotten a MBP for the same price but they’re literally different form factors and bigger isn’t always better.

I've given up on simply walking into an Apple store to just buy something for the past few years. The closest you can get to this is by ordering online ahead of time, then walking into the store an hour later and picking it up.

I've walked into an Apple Store and told the person triaging people walking in, "I know EXACTLY what iPhone I want". They send me to the iPhone area where I have to wait in a queue behind 5 other people who need to be sold the damn iPhone. The customers I'm waiting for are either deliberating between a few different models or have no idea what they should get, so the people working in the store are busy talking to them for much longer than I care to wait.

I wish Apple would add a step to their triage to handle people who walk into the store and say, "I know EXACTLY what I want, _________"

Doesn't Apple have this step already? I'm talking about the online store with optional pickup in your Apple Store. I've ordered online whenever I exactly know what I want. No sales talk, no waiting. Pickup in store was fast and hassle free, but that might depend on store and time. Best of all: I know exactly that the item I want is available for me.

Yeah, but as I said it takes about an hour, under optimal conditions, for Apple to fulfill the order.

This was exactly my experience trying to buy an Apple Watch from the Apple Store just before the pandemic. I had done all the research ahead of time and knew exactly what I needed. “Do you have an appointment?” No. “Oh, it’ll be about 45 minutes before someone can help you.” But I know what I want and just need you to ring me up. “I’m sorry, 45 minutes.”

Hands down the strangest retail interaction I’ve ever had. Frustrated, I went to the Best Buy literally in the mall’s parking lot and was on my way in under 10 minutes with the watch I wanted. I guess Apple still won here since I bought the product anyhow?

> “Do you have an appointment?” No. “Oh, it’ll be about 45 minutes before someone can help you.”

Ah, yes, the Ferrari customer experience. You need to be selected by the manufacturer to be allowed to buy their product. It makes the product feel rare and exclusive, and the customer feel "special", when it's a consumer product made by the same Chinese sweatshop workers that make your other e-waste.

Obligatory Futurama "there might be one left":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASUHbFEhWY

No, it’s just bad service, cargo culting the Steve Jobs Store move

I don’t think Steve Jobs would have tolerated that bullshit. He understood the customer better than that. Actually, this was his main talent.

Right, that’s literally what cargo culting means.

It’s making a surface level imitation of behaviors, without understanding the underlying reasons, hoping for the same effect.

So maybe Jobs might have made experiences that looked superficially similar to this, but he would’ve done it in a manner that actually understood the customer.

How meta. It appears I’m guilty of cargo culting the phrase “cargo cult”, since I superficially use it to describe really any modern form of tech fad following, all in an attempt to be hip with “modern” terms.

I think it’s more than that; I suspect that they have pretty onerous internal store processes about inventory control and device transfer to minimize employee theft.

And yet they were still one of the companies most noted for their onerous 'unpaid bag check' stuff.

At some point you either have to point to their inventory system being a problem, and/or them having a very low trust view of their employees, and it's the customers who get to waste their time as a result.

Or perhaps they know what Costco and Walmart and every other store knows: “Increased dwell time correlates to increased sales.” I suspect that waiting for the “Ferrari Experience” is a side show to the very real effect that the longer you spend in their stores, the higher affinity you will have for their products, during that visit or future visits.

Surely that only works if you have a pleasant experience and linger willingly. Then you develop positive associations with the store and the products.

If you have a negative experience from being forced to wait, then that's a different animal. How many of us relish the idea of visiting the DMV after previously experiencing long lines?

>Ah, yes, the Ferrari customer experience.

The difference here is that you can only get a Ferrari from a dealer. Apple products aren't exclusive to Apple stores, so driving away customers eager to shell out money doesn't seem optimal.

Tbh it may well be better to forgo their retail margin to get better placement in other stores. If an Apple store was the best place to buy them why would anyone else carry them?

Wait, you need an appointment to buy it?

No, you don’t. Perhaps those stores were overloaded, but I can easily walk into stores in East Bay and walk out with my products in a few minutes.

If you want to buy an iPhone with minimal interaction, just use the website or app, for in store pickup. Takes no time at all!

I will agree that it’s ridiculous for customers to have to wait for an appointment to buy a watch band, which I’ve seen. There were several employees standing around at the time, inexplicably.

But what I want is to get a phone now. That's half the point of going to store - the place where the product is stocked.

that's what in store pick up means -- you still get the phone right away.

Do you get how insane this sounds as an experience though? I'm physically in the store, saying "just let me pay for your product so I can leave" and the default is to try and drag that interaction out?

The existence of workarounds doesn't make it not stupid.

Not really. Apple is catering to the majority of consumers who don't arrive at the store with their exact purchase ready to go. They want to be guided and shown all the options.

And if you are in the small % who don't want this. Either go to one of the other retail stores selling the product, or order it online for pickup or delivery.

I don’t always know for sure what I want when I go into an Apple Store, but I never want to wait 45 mins for an appt! Usually it comes down to 1-2 questions about storage, photo quality, screen tech, etc.

It doesn't make sense economically, and it is likely a side effect of a metric used on employee performance. Quick sale -> less time in store -> more time to help those that (actually!) need it. If you truly can't be bothered to take the money for an unambiguous transaction, Something Is Broken.

You’re not a candidate for upselling and both they and you know you’re going to wait or walk over to Best Buy and get an iPhone.

Revenue lost = 0

The percentage of HN types storming out screaming “I’m going to just go buy Android” is a rounding error.

Yeah but the shop itself has a long-standing user interface, ie people go into a shop to buy what they want. Ok Apple are catering to people who might not be certain and amenable to upselling, but not easily catering to people who are fairly clear about what they want, for example long-standing and valuable existing customers, is seriously stupid. It’s not like people are casually wandering into an Apple store looking to purchase a hoover or a Linux netbook.

> the shop itself has a long-standing user interface, ie people go into a shop to buy what they want

Over the last twenty years, more and more shopping is done online. Fewer people want to visit shops - those that do are usualy there to seek advice. The need for shops is changing and will become more like showcases for what you can do with the products and how they might fit into the lifestyle that you aspire to have.

It's probably actually about the opportunity to upsell. A single upsell on a MacBook to the next better specs pays for enough apple store employee time to make up for everything.

Citation needed. "Most Apple customers don't know what they want and need expert assistance and guidance."

Seriously? You think most Apple customers are developers or tech enthusiasts or meticulous shoppers? That's neither the majority of Apple customers nor their intended primary audience.

Your use of dysphemism in that paraphrase suggests a defensiveness and personal identification with your own consumption choices that are not helping you assess Apple's strategy here.

You hit the nail on its head. This is HN where mostly everybody knows tech, geek out about specs and learn about devices ahead of time. But Apple sells to a general population that is far less knowledgeable and mostly lives by "new phone good". Either guidance or upsell Apple knows what they're doing. We are not the usual demographic in an apple store.

ill gladly bang the drum about how insulated the HN bubble is, but this opinion specifically is bizarre to me. why does this have to be one size fits all? when someone walks in and says "i know i want this, let me buy it" how is it unreasonable to expect Apple to realize that it can skip the default flow?

Maybe they've found that most of the time the customer is mis-informed and doesn't really know what they want. I don't know, but I expect they've got more data than you or I.

But tons and tons of stores cater to customers seeking guidance through their purchases, yet if you show up knowing exactly what you want, they are only all too happy to take the easy sale.

I always excessively research big purchases, and so I have never in my life walked into a store like this without already knowing what I want. For example, walk into a sewing machine shop ready to buy without asking for any demonstrations, and see how almost giddy the staff get about it. Salespeople and shop owners often tell me how much they appreciate the rare customer who comes in ready to buy; it means more sales for less work.

It seems weird to turn those customers away instead of perceiving the sale as an unexpected-but-welcome freebie like 99.9% of other retailers do.

It doesn’t sound insane at all. Unless you’re paying cash, the transaction is going to be set up on a computer, the inventory is going to be checked on a computer, and the payment is going to be processed on a computer. And your smart phone is a computer. Why is it odd to expect it to be faster to ask someone else to do this process for you rather than you doing it yourself? It’s not like you need someone with extensive point-of-sale software experience to blaze through this for you.

>>Why is it odd to expect it to be faster to ask someone else to do this process for you rather than you doing it yourself?

That's not really the issue here. It's more that it's odd to ask someone else to do this process for you and they tell you to make an appointment and come back.

A potential customer is telling an apple store employee "I want to exchange my money for your goods. I need you to do the exact same thing as a high school kid at a part time job, take my money and give me the phone. I just want you to act like a proper brick and mortar store for 2 minutes dammit." To which the employee responds "I can't do that now be cause you don't have an appointment. When you come back withone, I'll be glad to take the 2 minutes that's needed to make that transaction."

The "insane" pat is that apple store employees, the purpose of which are ultimately to convince potential customers to give them money in exchange for apple stuff and facilitate the transfer of resources, are basically telling potential customers "I won't do my job where I take your money and give you apple stuff unless you have an appointment. You don't have one, no apple for you."

It seems unintuitive, but the fastest way to get an iPhone when you're standing in a store may be to pull out your phone and make a purchase on the website.

This won't always be the case (I've never been told I needed an appointment to buy an iPhone, and I've bought them at several different Apple Stores over the years), but if you run into an intransigent employee, give this a try.

At the very least, the employees should be trained to tell people about the in-store pickup option. That would avoid leaving a bad taste in the mouth of customers who just want to get in and get out.

> At the very least, the employees should be trained to tell people about the in-store pickup option.

If they were going to train employees to tell customers about that, they could also just... let their employees ring someone up without an appointment. It would take exactly as much time as explaining the work around would, and would be even less likely to leave a bad taste in a customer's mouth.

It's also much less likely to result in an upsell or selling additional merchandise. Why would they want to lose that opportunity?

Leaving a bad taste in a customer's mouth isn't a problem. Just look at the comments here from people exactly like that: they went somewhere else, and then bought the exact same thing. Sure, they're griping about it, but who cares? Apple still got their money for the item, and they freed up room in the Apple Store for another customer who might be more amenable to up-selling.

Why should Apple care about pissing off customers with this kind of treatment? It's not like they're going to buy an Android Phone or Samsung watch or whatever. They're going to buy the Apple product they have their heart set on, no matter how poorly they're treated by employees at the Apple store. So exactly what incentive does Apple have to make their shopping experience more efficient and hassle-free?

It kinda seems the fastest way to get an iphone would be to go to a store where you can actually say "i want to buy an iphone from you immediately" and they respond with "i want to sell an iphone to you immediately" whereupon your money and their iphone are exchanged.

It's sort of shocking to hear about going to a store, attempting to purchase something they are selling at the asking price, and being told "I don't feel like having commerce right now. I have a headache. Why don't you come back tomorrow cause I need something time to psych myself up?" It's almost violating somehow, maybe like seeing capitalism get violated or something. I mean, what if you went to the grocery store and they told you they don't feel like selling food to you at the time but they might have some appointments open. Hunger doesn't have a snooze button to delay it until the time of your appointment.

>It's almost violating somehow, maybe like seeing capitalism get violated or something.

No one's being violated here.

>I mean, what if you went to the grocery store and they told you they don't feel like selling food to you at the time but they might have some appointments open. Hunger doesn't have a snooze button to delay it until the time of your appointment.

You don't go to the grocery store if you're hungry (in fact, that's the worst time to shop for groceries). If you're hungry, go to a restaurant.

Anyway, if there's a fancy and horribly overpriced grocery store in town, and they treat customers like this, and those customers just give in and make appointments and come back later, how is the grocery store operating badly?

Normally, such a grocery store would quickly go under, as customers would go to a competing grocery store. But with Apple, that never happens. Apple customers will keep coming back for more.

Some people (apparently many people) actually like this kind of buying experience. I imagine some ultra-high end brands of clothing and cars treat people similarly.

you know, i tried this first time recently. placed order at 10am. no pickup that day. ready at 1pm next day! go to store. had to wait ten minutes after i wated at the door to checkin my appt (why). whole time employees small talking me. guy finally finds my box and shoves it in my hands and i was finally free from that cursed overpriced garbagehole

Perhaps some AI they run believes that waiting in line at midnight is the fun part of the iPhone experience

Do you know if the item was in stock at that store? I've been able to do same-day pickups, even right after an item was launched. Not all variants are in stock, of course.

Pretty similar experience buying a studio display, except the wait time was at least 40 minutes for them to get the box with the only monitor in their stock room. I expected 10 minutes at most.

My last 4 purchases from the Apple Store were terrible experiences that all took nearly an hour.

You keep going back so it must be working

> finally free from that cursed overpriced garbagehole

Then why do you go there? Honestly I don't get it. If you call it names like that.

There's dozens of retailers who sell the same Apple products and online websites too for quick delivery, including Apple's own.

opinions change of a place after the experience. i do not see why this is weird

I'll take this over waiting in a long line or not knowing if they have what I'm looking for.

I picked up a MBA and had a similar experience. It just takes 5-10 minutes for someone in the stock room to find the thing and carry it out to me. 10 minutes feels like a reasonable amount of time. I guess best buy has a slightly better system?

Was coming here to say the same; I don’t think I’ve ever come to the Apple Store to buy something; always order it online through their app or website and choose store pick up. You schedule a time, stop in, verify ID, and are out within a few minutes.

> The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided through the process, then I will ask for that.

The reason this is done is to:

a) limit bad online reviews due to ill fitting headsets or unfamiliarity with the controls

b) to ensure that people looking to buy it have their expectations managed

c) to give it the upscale, prestige feeling of going to a tailor for a fitted suit. Useless theater for a tech product, but Apple loves pageantry.

They should do the same but for returns:

1) Give explanation to you why you should reconsider

2) Make you fill out a form stating reasons for returning

3) Refund in cash giving you small notes

I returned the Pro XDR display and the person at the store didn't ask me anything other than for my receipt and opening the box to check the product was there.

Also probably because of the prescription lens inserts.

This problem (not Apple's fault) makes me pessimistic about the practicability of this process for people with high myopia. I've never ever been able to walk out of an optometry appointment with a pair of glasses. Could an Apple Store possibly be better than an eye doctor?

I only have normal subpar vision but I too have never been able to walk out of an optometry appointment with a pair of glasses. That's a thing? Optometrists keep prescription lens stock on hand?

There's a store chain called Lenscrafters that has a gimmick where, depending on your prescription, you can get glassess in one hour at some stores. So if you have an appointment for an eye exam at the store it can be done. I've never shopped there so can't say what it's like in practice.

Pageantry is the perfect word to summarize what Apple is

Also, given the production issues I'm wondering if this is being done to reduce returns. I'm curious what the return policy actually is.

Can't you also buy these products online? I'm not surprised that the in-store experience has become such a high touch affair when the customer base that would have wanted less interaction have already self-selected out by not going to the store at all

That is true, but I'm sometimes I'm frankly far too impatient to wait for delivery.

you can buy the product online and choose store pickup. can be ready within hours since it’s from their inventory.

You can frequently get same-day delivery for a nominal fee, even within a few hours! My partner’s phone broke after she dropped it one too many times at about 7:30am on a recent morning, and we had a new one in hand without leaving the house by 10:30am.

Yes, and then too sometimes you order for same-day delivery and the store hands the bag to an Uber Eats driver (they actually do partner with Uber Eats for courier service!) who mysteriously never turns up to hand it off to you. Then you have to spend a few hours on the phone with Apple to make sure you don't end up paying for a phone you never got.

I don't blame the guy who stole it, although I might if I'd had to hold the bill for his act of sticky-fingered entrepreneurship. I do blame Apple for using a service, whose drivers normally handle $50 in food at a time, to deliver nonperishable and highly portable items of 20 or more times that value.

Just order it then go and pick it up in store. High touch customer service is universally considered a good thing, but for someone like you, you can order it online or just pick it up in store.

I'm not sure I agree with "universally", I bet there are a awful lot of people who can't stand that level of service and find it quite uncomfortable. I get that I could order ahead etc, but that makes an impulse purchase into a multi-step process. I'm sure the multi-trillion dollar company felt that pain when I still bought their product only from a different place. Oh wait... ;-)

Except when you don't want the high-touch service. Good service companies recognize this and have some accommodation for the customer who knows what they want and are there to buy, not shop.

If I'm there to shop, I'll ask them to point me to what I want to try out and do so. If I'm buying clothes, for example, high-touch is great. "I like this style, but this manufacturer doesn't fit me well, do you have something similar you recommend?"

But when I needed a new Apple Watch charger on a trip, I walked into the store, said I needed one, and the only question was did I want USB-A or USB-C? A, thanks, sold. I was in and out in less time than it took my wife to find and use the restroom in the mall.

One bizarre experience I had was when I had a Genius Bar appointment to fix an inaudible handset speaker on an iPhone (apparently they have a program that runs through a wide gamut of frequencies to knock out any odd bits of dust). Yep, it worked. Then the Genius asked me if I would make a phone call (can't, it's a backup phone, no SIM) or FaceTime call (um, to whom?) to test it. It's work hours, the people I would call would be busy at work, how about I just call your phone? No, can't share that.

I said, Genius, why don't you have a generic thing that I can FaceTime and you can respond to that's part of your work identity? I don't need your personal info. Just "applestore-ZIPcode-[five-digit one-time account]@icloud.com" would work.

But they shouldn't assume that.

I just had this exact experience because my phone was irrevocably ruined, so I needed to pick a replacement up the same day.

The Apple Store was a very poor experience with a sales agent I knew more than trying, repeatedly, to explain to me things like backup, Apple Care, etc., etc. I also for some reason had to talk to four different people, and the only one that could actually help me was busy while everyone else in the store was standing around. It should have taken 10 minutes and it took the better part of an hour.

What happened when you told them, “I’m all set without a demo, please just ring me up ?” Did they refuse?

Near me, they keep the products locked up in the back room, and the person who you talk to on the floor often doesn't have direct access and needs to find the person who has access to get them the product.

It makes sense. There's not a pile of 1000 Macbooks on a pallet back there. It's locked up in a cage, and they go in and get one at a time.

But makes for a slow shopping experience.

Not even gemstones are that stupidly processed.

Gemstones are also not worth anywhere near what the gem store would like you to think. Just try selling them back to the store you bought them from and see how much less they are willing to give you.

Same with any Macbook. Buy one and try to sell it again right after the return period is over. See how little Apple will offer you for it.

That’s not an answer to the question posed.

This may not come as a surprise, but the practice of locking up expensive shit so people can't go grab stuff they aren't supposed to isn't unique to the Apple Store.

I've worked places that used this kind of process. It doesn't turn a 10 minute visit into a 50 minute visit without some kind of underlying issue blocking the cage pull from happening. Something along the lines of an interpersonal communication failure (forgot to request cage pull, person with key forgot/never got the request or the person with the key has gone into hiding ), a technical fluke (cage has electronic lock and it's EMP day), or a freak accident (person with the key, as well as the key itself, got disintegrated by ball lightning). As long as there isn't anything blocking, a cage pull is 10-15 min. If the person with the key was busy with a client, the requestor would normally take that over so they can run to the cage without the delay of having to finish that client.

Costco manages to do this well. If you buy a Mac (or almost any other high-value small item) you take a paper slip which is scanned by the cashier or self checkout. You then go to the cage and they hand you your item right then and there.

Yes. The last time I was there to buy an iphone they said: “Someone will help you in 30 minutes, let me put your name in the queue. Oh, and you have to go stand and wait in the corner. No, you cannot leave the store to get coffee, if you do you will lose your place in the queue.”

I counted 14 workers and maybe 3x as many customers in the store, with at least 5 workers just standing around doing nothing.

It’s clever. They’re essentially hacking your attention by taking advantage of the fact that you already signaled you have money and are willing to spend it. Getting you in the store and putting the hardware in front of you is the hardest part, and you did that yourself.

This is why people on a budget go to the grocery store with a list. The physical experience is designed to sell you more, and Apple has the margins to to design the fuck out of that experience.

Really? That experience was so bad I’m not sure I will ever go to an Apple store again.

As long as you keep buying Apple products it won't matter.

You're not just supporting them with money, you help to reinforce the spread of their ecosystem and marketing by using the phone day to day.

If you did not enjoy the Apple Store experience you should absolutely not go there again. You are in charge of your time and attention. Only you get to decide how to spend it.

I don’t have the same negative experience as others in this thread with the Apple Store, but I understand it. I would liken it to a car dealership, which I refuse to do business with after it once took five hours to buy a car from one. Lots of people are totally fine with it, but it’s not for me.

I wouldn’t assume they’re assuming it, they probably have data to tell them that.

I’ve not gone into a store for an item when I already knew exactly what I want since the pandemic. Even if I need it same day I’ll buy it online and pick it up. That’s probably most people now, and they probably know it.

Data lies. Throwing data in the face of real customer feedback is how end up at the lowest common denominator.

I usually place an order online and pickup at the store for reasons. Never had it take more than a few minutes. I did check out the Apple Watch Ultra in a store to make sure I was OK with the size and the band but again very straightforward.

Yeah, the only time I go to the store is to check out a new product in person. Even if I decide I want it, I go home and order it online.

A few years back I bought a MBP online with the pickup option. I picked it up, declined their assistance setting it up and went about my day.

I get home later that day, start to set it up and it’s locked to employees of a bank in Canada. Live support is no help so I take it back, only to find out the serial number did not match that on the box. They had their security guard quietly come stand near me until they figured out what they wanted to do.

The sales guy told me since they can’t prove I stole it they were giving me a different one. I think they knew it was previously returned and realized they got scammed by someone else the first time around.

This time I made sure I could login before I left.

Within the return window the new 16” came out at the same price so I took it in and swapped it for the 16”. They just took it, handed me the new laptop, transferred Apple Care and sent me on my way. It made sense as they didn’t bother to verify the box/device serial number with me. They took my word and processed everything in a matter of minutes.

Lesson learned: next time, scam them

That corporate lock thing is called DEP, device enrollment program. It used to be easy to bypass (just don't connect to internet during setup) but then it would bug you constantly once you did. On T2/M1/M2 macs it's no longer bypassable similar to the apple account lock anti theft feature (which is a different thing)

Apple can remove it of course. It was probably a laptop stolen from the bank or their suppliers, then returned to Apple to whitewash it.

I'm not surprised this happens. What I am surprised about is that Apple apparently sells a returned item to another customer as new. Pretty sure that's not their policy and in most cases illegal. Perhaps they checked the seals (for activating DEP you don't need to open the box at all!) but still this shouldn't happen.

Normally these items go through a cleaning and reimaging process and then end up on the refurb store at a reduced price.

FWIW, scammers at Apple usually buy Apple Care/all the attachments.

They know the employee is judged on that and is incentivized to make the transaction glide through.

Did they not scan both??? Many big box retail stores have to scan both the box and the barcode of the item through it (i.e. a Playstation) before the transaction can be completed. Yikes.

So Apple sells returned items back to people as though they were new? What a scam.

Apple stores used to feel kind of special in the early ipod/iphone era, almost like the employees were excited about the technology products they were selling. But the population of friendly and smart techy employees willing to work for retail wages in most American cities had to have always been tiny and with Apple’s growth it was exhausted long ago and employee quality has diluted at the same time as traffic has increased.

Was this your first Apple Watch?

When I last went to an Apple Store to get a new one (while wearing my current Apple Watch) I just said “I know what I want and what I’m doing”.

They handed me the box on the spot in the middle of the store and I paid with the mobile PoS terminal they carry.

I was in and out in less than five minutes and this was at their very busy Chicago Michigan Avenue store. Maybe they’re that efficient because it is busy but like most Apple Store experiences I’ve had it was very fast and efficient - they didn’t get in the way of me spending my money, that’s for sure.

This is closer to my experience around late 2019. (Toronto Ontario Canada, at the time.)

Went in, saw someone on staff fixing up a display unit, asked if I could buy an S5 apple watch, he asked if I had any questions, I said none, tapped card on the mobile POS thing, and then in maybe 10 minutes, someone else came out, apologized for the wait, and handed me my box.

It's possible it's changed over covid though. Makes sense they would want the in-store experience to be more white-glove if they were seeing less foot traffic.

Lack of foot traffic was their choice. Apple stores were far more picky about COVID than the local norm. You had to show an appointment or a "ready for pickup" email to be allowed into the store. And that was early 2021, when I was fully vaccinated (and had the card to prove it).

I picked up a couple of things during Covid to save on sales tax. Couldn’t even enter the store.

I’ve bought a few items in store. An iPad. Went in told them what I wanted. They went got it. Came out and asked if I want to know anything else about it or need help. Said no. Asked if I wanted apple care. I said yes. They added it to the cart. Gave me a 30s overview of what I can do with apple care. Paid. Left.

If you let the people in the store talk they will talk and try upset. Just politely say no.

> if I didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over.

It probably goes a long way to explain things if you know that Watch launched while Ahrendts was SVP of Retail at Apple. She came from Burberry, a luxury fashion retailer, and clearly had a vision for Apple Stores that was not compatible with the high throughput & demand they regularly get.

"I've tried to decorate it nicely to keep the inmates happy, but there's very little one can do. I never go in there now myself. If ever I am tempted, which these days I rarely am, I simply look at the sign written over the door and shy away."

"That one?" said Fenchurch, pointing, rather puzzled, at a blue plaque with some instructions written on it.

"Yes. They are the words that finally turned me into the hermit I have now become. It was quite sudden. I saw them, and I knew what I had to do."

The sign said:

Hold stick near centre of its length. Moisten pointed end in mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion.

"It seemed to me," said Wonko the Sane, "that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a packet of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane."

— Douglas Adams, So Long and Thanks for All The Fish, Pan Books (1984)

This is what the average person likes about Apple. This is why the company is worth so much money. The facade of exclusivity and perfection. Clean, white rooms with clean, smiling staff and shiny, perfect products.

They're just phones, they're just laptops. But no, we get "what's a computer?" hurr durr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFy7RmVx-Rc

The giant reason to do this with the headset in particular is that getting it wrong means a literally painful and/or nauseous experience. Meta is willing to let that happen with its $300 headsets mostly bought as gifts for children, but the bar is a lot higher for a $3500 device and Apple is already acutely aware of the blowback from "you're holding it wrong"-type scenarios.

I think this is a valid reason, and hopefully the driving factor.

On the other hand, Apple certainly seems to bank on making their devices as exclusive an experience as possible. They sell a huge amount, but they want the customer to feel like they are part of an elite group. This will heighten the artificial sense of scarcity.

> Apple is already acutely aware of the blowback from "you're holding it wrong"-type scenarios.

And the funny thing about what the legions of Apple faithful who were willing to pretzel themselves into contortions defending that.

(For a more reason, mention Batterygate and watch them come out and tell you how you just don't understand, Apple was absolutely doing you a favor, somehow.)

(Just like when they quoted me $900 to fix faulty charging on a MacBook, device worked perfectly, battery was healthy, just could not be charged. "Perhaps we should talk about getting you into a new Mac instead...?")

This sounds to me like the issue of when technical people call Tech Support with an advanced problem and the agent forces them to first check their monitor is on and reset.

It's frustrating, sure, but look at if from the other side: 99% of the people they deal with are completely incapable, and 90% of their problems ARE solved by a simple reboot.

Apple/iPhone is the ubiquitous phone for everyone from CTOs to grandma's.

The in store experience is optimized to make sure a person that has been stuck in a cave for 30 years and can walk out with a device optimized for their needs.

I bet they think that people like you will just buy online and choose in store pickup...

I normally order online for collection and have never had an issue there - most I've waited for collection is about 5 minutes during peak times when the store was absolutely rammed with people (Oxford Street, London, a Friday lunchtime.)

But I did once visit a store with someone wanting to buy a Watch and there was no forced sitting through any fitting or explanations. Just some questions about which Watch, if they already had a phone to connect it to, etc., and we were in and out of the store in under 20 minutes (Covent Garden, London, a Saturday afternoon, which is reasonably but not terrifyingly busy.)

++anecdata

I too find the it patronizing to shop in-store – it seems the staff are trained to assume everyone has less knowledge of the products than they do – this might work in other consumer retail environments but not when you're selling "Pro" level products. The tone and efficiency of the retail experience is much better at a store like Adorama or B&H (NYC pro photo/video shops). Not to mention the irritating processes and many touchpoints of reaching the right person in an Apple store

99% of their target audience does not live in Silicon Valley.

Go to LA for example and you'll find creative professionals that need "pro" level gear but appreciate the white-glove Apple service of showing them around and answering questions for a high end purchase.

Slight tangent to your tangent, but, after a poor experience last week, I'm really disappointed in how Apple handles specifically support in their stores.

Historically, I've been able to just throw in a few little bits of "yup, I know how that works" so that their techs realize that I know what I'm talking about and let up with the patronizing assumptions about what I do and don't know. However, this time, when dealing with a newly-present heat issue during charging after that very store replaced the battery in the phone (so both a safety issue and one that would be warranty if it could be determined that it was caused by the repair), the tech just kept repeating that there was no way that their work could've caused it and going "these phones don't have a fan to cool them like our laptops". No matter what I said, I couldn't get them to have an actual discussion with me, so now I'm stuck waiting for a call from their safety support team since it's a heat issue.

Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.

> Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.

I think they have homogenized support to treat each user as equally non-technical, it's by design. Apple is like a sect, they need to have a strong grip on their users.

Also there are plenty of people that know everything, except when they don't.

I was able to talk highly technical stuff to their Mac support engineers at least. Even found a bypass in their diagnosis machine’s data protection scheme and told them about it lol, their was a few months ago.

What did you expect from the you-are-holding-it-wrong company?

A few years ago I ended up having 4 visits to get my MBP fixed. They replaced the SSD 3 times (this was the last model before soldered disks). It was still having IO problems (file system corruption) even after fresh OS installs. It would only happen under heavy load. After the 3rd time, I got a decent genius - I asked him what the likelihood of having 3 bad SSDs in a row was, and maybe they should replace the logic board? He said “have you seen the new iPhone? Just go over there and have a look at it while I run a test” - I came back “I’ve reproduced the problem wink”. He knew the checklists needed appeasing, and cheated to get the desired outcome. Still, shouldn’t have taken that many visits.

Then I had a problem with the keyboard replacement program. They agreed to replace it under their extended warranty, due to the known issues with them. Posted the laptop off. Got an email 2 days later with a blurred image “the logic board shows signs of water damage”. I had a choice. Replace the logic board at my own cost (>£1000), or return the device unrepaired. They were the ones that had previously opened the machine & replaced the logic board! The machine operated permanently in clamshell mode, vertically - there’s simply no way any moisture could have got into it. I just wanted the keyboard replacing. Very frustrating. I ended up buying the parts & doing the repair myself.

All-in, bad experiences.

I worked Apple Retail many many moons ago. The senior manager once told me (manager -> senior manager -> store leader)

“Your job is not to sell products, we could put all this inventory out there on a pallet with a credit card swiper and sell all of them. Your job is to sell attachments, primarily Apple Care”.

Seriously, sales volume was a footnote. You are entirely judged on your attach rate for whatever it is corporate/your market is pushing, they start you part time and the only way up is to attach attach attach. No one wants to “just sell you a phone” because they know you’ll never get Apple Care and for every one of you they need to sell 4 other people on AC to get their numbers back up.

Another fun note: At the time Apple Store revenue $/sq ft beat out jewelry stores.

Great gig as a high school kid, made decent cash and a bunch of people used their tuition assistance. A large number of their employees though are what I call “retail lifers”, 25-30 year olds who are way in debt from a degree that didn’t work out or washed out of the corporate world and landed back in retail. They really don’t like younger employees who are actually going somewhere/realize it’s a temporary gig for kids and not a real career. Lots of alcoholism and drug abuse in that group.

If that's still the case, I can imagine why they'd want a customer who knows exactly what they want to walk to the store next door to get the item elsewhere.

A customer who already knows exactly what configuration they want is probably going to be hard to sell AppleCare to.

The Genius Bar also takes forever to get appointments at now compared to how it was. I think they maintained close to the same number of retail locations as their customer base exploded, which probably works out better economically but is far less convenient.

Apple grew from ~300 to ~500 stores between 2010 and 2020.

https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2021/3/10/the-future-of-ap...

Try buying a Mac in 1992. First you have to find a reseller. Then, they may think you're not seriously looking and ignore you. Some resellers are only by appointment. If you do look like you have money, they pick an option for you (Classic, LC, IIsi, IIci) and try to keep you in your lane. They upsell you a little on software and things like Kensington locks. Then you get to order it and it arrives a couple months later.

If I know exactly what I want and don’t need the guided experience, I just order it on the Apple Store mobile app then pick it up in-store.

A couple years ago I wanted an item in-stock at the Apple store but the soonest 'pickup appointment' they could give me was a few days out. What's worse is they have you choose a specific 15-minute window. That's not very customer friendly.

They seem to inject additional people into their processes, for reasons I can't discern but I'm sure exist.

For example, even buying something as simple as an Airtag means waiting for a random employee to be free, who then gets one for you, only to then wait for another different employee to be free to allow you to pay for it. Maybe that's just about theft prevention?

My one "Genius Bar" experience (recently) in Munich was really crappy - told to check in, then told to wait by a table where I was ignored; when I re-approached someone, told to wait somewhere else... and watching the flow of things, it became very apparent that my 'appointment' had no value - I was helped in a queue after people who'd just walked in.

Most non computer purchases like AirTags can be self serve. You grab a box off the shelf, scan it with the app, Apple Pay and walk out. No person necessary. Works on everything without a unique serial.

I'm not clear from your comment whether you're proposing how things should be, or how things actually are in your experience?

(Your vision isn't the case in the [European] Apple stores I have experience of...)

This is my actual experience in US Apple stores. It’s been available for a while, but staff don’t always guide you to it.

Eg. https://www.howtogeek.com/338754/how-to-buy-stuff-at-the-app...

But earlier references are from 2012 for the easy pay roll out.

Maybe US only. Definitely a shame if it is.

Even when the product you want is out on a shelf, it’s annoying that there’s no line to get in to pay for it. If you need help, you just have to chase someone down. The whole experience feels chaotic and contrarian.

I feel like the embodiment of Confused Travolta when I'm holding an accessory and aimlessly trying to make contact with someone who isn't busy

I recently had exactly the opposite experience - I went into an Apple Store (in the UK) wanting to buy a pencil and case for an iPad mini. The whole experience took less than 10 minutes, including trying out multiple case suggestions based on my preferences.

I guess though that this does apply to accessories rather than one of their main product lineups though - although I have heard similar things from friends purchasing products at the same store. Perhaps it heavily depends on which store you go to?

When has this happened?

I don't have an Apple Store in my country, but last time I bought Watch in Tokyo and an iPhone in NYC, I told them I know exactly what I want and the transaction was super quick.

In NYC I was even impressed by it, because I just talked to the sales rep for the tiniest bit and a colleague came over and inconspicuously handed her a box with the phone mid-walk. I haven't noticed how she (the sales rep) signaled for it. It almost felt like buying drugs.

Just order the item you want for store pickup before you leave and it’s usually ready by the time you get there. That’s my experience and it’s quite literally in-n-out.

My last experience at a busy Apple Store was walking in, finding the iPod home I wanted to buy, scanning the UPC and serial code with my Apple Store app on my phone and clicking purchase then walking out without hassle or having to talk to a single person.

This wont happen if you want to buy a phone or MacBook, but with accessories and things you can self-checkout, it’s pretty seamless.

I think 99% of customers do need an explanation on how to use the watch.

I’ll be honest, I’m one of the people that needs instructions for Apple products. I’ve been buying them online — each time becoming frustrated with the lack of instructions and the assumed knowledge necessary to use them.

Oh, you didn’t know that there’s actually two different places to swipe down at the top of the phone? Everyone knows about that, you idiot!

For the iPhone at least there is a fairly extensive user guide online. It doesn't help much for technical issues but did a decent job explaining how to do things.

In my case, I learned about setting up a triple-click shortcut to pop up the accessibility menu so I could unmute the phone via software due to a broken side switch that won't stay on. I'm sure this is available elsewhere online, but using Google just took me to the regular places - typically someone posting on an Apple forum trying and failing to get help.

I don't buy Apple stuff so don't know anything about Apple stores -- but I've encountered it in other stores (usually ones that fancy themselves "high end" in some way).

It drive me crazy. It's bad enough to have to talk to a salesman when I wasn't seeking one, it's even worse when I tell that salesperson that I'm ready to buy something specific and then they waste both of our time trying to do anything other than take my money and give me the thing.

Those are stores I'm unlikely to return to.

This is different than when I want a salesperson to explain things to me. In that case, yes, please shower me with attention as long as they're one of the ones that are actually helpful rather than just constantly trying to sell.

My watch buying experience was really straightforward. I knew which watch I wanted, and which band - really the only thing I needed to be sure of was the band size (as I’d not worn one before). I’d say the whole thing took about 10 minutes.

This is anecdotal of course. Your experience is yours. Sorry you went through that. My experiences have all been pretty smooth.

As for the Vision Pro, I think we’re dealing with a very different kind of product. They want everyone to have a positive experience, and this is the kind of thing no one has used even if you’ve used VR headsets, you’ve not used the product they created. They want to make sure you’re not getting stuck on fit or comfort.

Are these U.S. Apple stores? I’ve had a dozen or so purchases over the last few years at several Apple stores in the Bay Area and Los Angeles area and have never experienced anything remotely like this. Sometimes I’ve bought online and done in store pickup, other times I’ve just asked the employee for the exact item I wanted, and I’ve never experienced the slightest roadblock to an extremely fast checkout process. I would be surprised if this isn’t a very deliberately planned in-store experience, so I gotta wonder if it’s a regional thing or something.

From Apple's perspective, if you know exactly what you want that is what online Apple Store is for.

If you want to see it in person / try it on / have questions, that is what the physical Apple Store is for.

Not been my experience when I’ve bought apple watches. Product walk through were always optional that store employees were happy to offer, I always skipped them, brought the watch and was on my way.

While my dad shopped for one for my sister I had time to drink a coffee, find a Mother’s Day gift of chocolates, and do some work (the Apple Store outside Apple Park has all this).

I've been to my local Apple Store once, and it was a great experience. I was there to trade-in two M1 Macbook Air's. No associate was available however I got one after 5 minutes and they very quickly completed the trade-ins without any questions whatsoever, and wished me a great day. No attempt to sell/upsell me a product (I told them at the beginning I was going to purchase online) and they were very friendly.

I recently went in to do an exchange of a band I bought bundled with a watch and had to help the person helping me because their system didn’t understand it was a bundle and therefore had to be rung up differently. Same deal with them treating me like an 80 year old (I’m mid-20s). It’s almost like they need to be trained to recognize a person who doesn’t need a ton of support in their purchase. I would do better with self-checkout honestly.

> Otherwise, just sell me the damn product!

I find the store purchasing experience to be frustrating as well, but if you order online and it's in stock, every Apple store I've lived near will deliver it to you door in 2-4 hours.

If you want to play with a product: go to the store, interact with it, and if you like it order it on your phone while you're there. It will be home not long after you are.

> just another shopping chore

Being forced into an appointment when you're ready to pay and know exactly what you want doesn't sound like a run-of-the-mill shopping chore.

It oddly resembles a visit to a medical clinic (that is government subsidized, and accordingly fettered with bureaucratic rules that prevent you from just ordering the procedure you want).

I’ve walked in and bought an iPhone, AirPods (Pro/Max), Apple Watch, MBP without any issues. In and out. Bay Area apple stores.

Same in the Boston area.

You can just say that you know what you're doing and don't need help. Maybe with a reassuring "i'm sure".

Right lol this is also my experience. Do you need help setting it up? No thank you. Bye! I've never felt patronized at the Apple store, honestly it's the one electronics store where I feel like the staff kind of know what they're doing and are hovering around tentatively ready to help me actually purchase the thing.

Absolutely bizarre. My experience in Toronto buying an Apple Watch on an extremely busy day was 5-10min in and out and there was no attempt to ‘fit’ me.

Told them what they wanted, they went back and got it, they brought a POS so I could pay, I was easily out of there in 10min.

Never had any issues like this whatsoever in more than a decade of shopping at these stores?

Buying online with in-store pickup is the best way to go these days. You can take your time evaluating which options you want int the comfort of your own home, and then be in and out of the store pretty quickly without worrying about delivery.

That's what I did when I got my last phone, and will do that on every subsequent purchase.

You can use the online Apple Store then either have it delivered or pickup in person.

Or purchase from the hundreds of third party resellers who also sell them.

There are many people especially with the Apple Watch who aren't experts at technology and so having personalised service makes sense for them. And for you there are obviously many other options.

I keep reading stories about experiences like yours, but no, never experienced that myself.

But then, it might be about my buying habits: the cheapest thing which suits my needs, and only when I actually need it rather than as soon as it comes out, so I'm almost never there at the sales peak for whatever it is I'm getting.

> but I was forced to sit through an entire "fitting" with patronising explanation

I have purchased several Apple Watches, iPhones, and other devices and not once have I ever been forced to sit through anything other than an employee going to the back to get what I purchased.

Wow this is bad

It seems they made the experience for the people they show in their commercials (some "tech unconcerned happy people" who knows just barely enough to pick the Apple product, has "good vibes mandolin music" all over them and somehow makes 300k/yr)

This has not been my experience at all. I walk in (or make an appt beforehand for the sake of convenience), tell the what I want, plop down my credit card, and I am out of there in 20 minutes tops. Super smooth, professional experience.

Twenty minutes sounds like a long time to walk in, get something you already know you want, pay, and walk out.

Oof. Have to agree here. I admit I get impatient at times when it takes me more than 5 minutes to walk out of a Best Buy with an online order.

Longer than it took me to show up at the Chinese restaurant last night, decide on an order, pay, wait for them to cook the food, and walk out with it.

Apple brings my snark out. After I went through all the BS to buy the base airpod for my kid, from the store, I then requested a printed receipt rather than give them my email addr.

Apparently the apple store near my house rarely gives people paper receipts anymore. It took 10+ mins for the poor sales drone to try every table in the store before he found the one that could actually still print receipts.

So I got to be the smart ass who said on the way out "goodness printing a receipt isn't that complex, i thought apple was a technology company."

Buy it online via the app and designate the store as a pick-up. You will barely have to speak with anyone. Stores are busy, that’s just how it is. I’ve bought all the products you mentioned and didn’t have to deal with any “help” or delay.

Every time I went to am Apple Store, I came in, said what I wanted, they brought it to me, I paid and then I left. 5min max, and as recently as a month ago. I'll guess you've been unlucky or your particular store is bad?

Generally, I buy the phones online and schedule pick up at the store. I go to the store for my appointment and ask the staff to apply the screen protector. It is a completely smooth and consistent experience.

It would be interesting if they tried to further emulate the famous behavior of luxury brands like Rolex, which may not deign to sell you anything if you just ask. Just recreate that aura for the mass consumer.

It sounds like Apple is deeply upset that companies like Ferrari get to invite people to buy their products while theirs are just mass-produced, made in China consumables that anyone can buy.

From what I recall I’ve only had to do it with brand new product categories which I think is perfectly reasonable.

I don’t mind the additional hand holding for a new category to make my myself familiar with it.

I've felt the opposite. The last two purchases I walked in and bought exactly what I wanted on impulse because it was so easy. An iphone upgrade and a battery thereafter.

Apple looks like a tech company, but it's really a luxury goods company. When you consider it through this lens the magic falls away and it's just selling status.

Everything I went to buy something. I told them I want to get X so they sat me down for a few minutes then I checked out for everything without explanation of the product.

Sounds like you want a self-checkout aisle for Apple Store products but its really just "IT Pro Line" or something, someone just charges you for what you want.

> Recently, I wanted to buy a new Phone. […]

I don’t say this to challenge your story, but I found it completely straightforward to buy an iPhone in an Apple Store recently (in London).

I personally have had the experience of having to talk to two people (with a third person required to fetch the product from the back room) at an Apple store in Toronto. You stand there waiting on the side for 10 minutes while the gopher finishes with a couple of other customers.

Referring to Apple Store employees as 'gophers' seems unnecessarily disparaging. I think I had to wait for a bit too, but I don't buy phones that often, so I didn't think much of it.

two months ago i walked in with a macbook pro spec i wanted, they confirmed they had one in stock. We did the payment dance and i walked out. Total time in store ~5m.

The Apple store experience is meant to be initializing. It's the mindset that they want their users to be in, otherwise you're not a typical Apple user.

If you know just what you want you could a) buy online or b) buy it from any other retailer. The Apple Store is for people who want to speak to apple staff

Strange -- none of my recent purchases at the Apple Store have involved more than your proposed ideal scenario. I wonder if it was chance, or...?

Makes me glad that i have been buying everything from them online for the past 5 years. I think i would walk out if i had your experience

I generally agree that buying at store is annoying, but Vision Pro is a fair case to make it store only. It needs adjustment.

I have bought a ton of Apple stuff for me and my family. Never had this issue. Walk in, buy, depart. Dead simple.

Same for me, I honestly think people are just trying to find things to complain about. I've shopped in the Apple store many times and it's been quick and easy, no hassling by the employees.

There are definitely a substantial number of people who have no idea how to use a dial and need an explanation

maybe the goal isnt only to sell product but also to make the customer think apple is smart and the customer needs them indefinitely to navigate the smartphone world. I wonder how their morning genius briefings go and what their plan is when a customer approaches

This is the main plan:

A: Approach customers with a personalized warm welcome

P: Probe politely to understand all the customer's needs

P: Present a solution for the customer to take home today

L: Listen for an resolve any issues or concerns

E: End with a fond farewell and invitation to return

thanks. seems like the geniuses in the original commenter might be getting stuck on the second P

I just bought on the website and stuff showed up. The stores are for moms and kids.

They don't want a customer, they want a cult member.

why not buy online for delivery? (honest question)

You have to say the magic word https://xkcd.com/806/

For me, the "magic word" is my WWDC 2007 bag. Pretty much the only reason I keep it around these days.

No, I have no idea what you're talking about:

> it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over

That's only the case for genius bar appointments or an extended consultation when they're super busy or something. If you just want to buy a phone you've already decided on, you ask the nearest person and they grab it and you pay for it.

It sounds like there was maybe just a miscommunication in your case. There is no trend here.

Yep. There's often people there whose job is to sell without an appointment. At my local stores they normally stand next to the accessories, where you can just grab stuff from the shelf.

But you can ask them to grab a specific model of iPhone, iMac, etc, for you if you don't need information.

I've known multiple people, and attended with one, who walked in, picked up the watch, and left in a few minutes total. That's also how I bought a laptop once (the rest online).

Apple stores are often willing to spend enormous amounts of time with you if you ask for help, but I've never seen them stay in your way when you say "no" and that you're ready to pay and leave.

(Obviously it can happen, but they're some of the most-standardized tech stores out there. If it were A Thing™, it would be everywhere.)

Some people have trouble rejecting help and feel awkward doing so. Of course, it is a totally normal thing to do, to reject help, and people should practice it!

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