A mathematically correct way to tie your shoes | Hacker News Reader

A mathematically correct way to tie your shoes

bigthink.com

95 pointsredbell43 comments

It's also worth mentioning the Ian knot [0]. It's just a way of tying the standard square knot, however in the convention established by Clifford Ashley [1] a knot consists not only of the topological configuration, but also the method of tying.

In fact, tying a knot correctly demands not only creating the topologically correct configuration, but that it is correctly "worked" into the correct snugged up form. Many knots have different "capsized" variants that are completely different in function. Ashley says "This is a matter of no less importance than correct tying and often presents a more difficult problem, requiring both patience and practice".

The point is: a "mathematical knot" has almost nothing to do with a knot in the real world. It is exactly the information the mathematical model discards -- the actual configuration of the knot in 3D space, where the friction (the "nip") is, etc. -- that is most important in a knot. And no, knot theory isn't needed to identify the problem of mistying a reef knot as a granny knot. That's the #1 rookie mistake, closely followed by using a reef knot as a bend.

[0]: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots

That Ian Knot is how I've been tying my shoe laces for the last couple of years. I've never been able to do the single loop and wraparound, and it feels extremely illogical to me, so for all my life I've been doing the bunny ears, until I learned the Ian Knot. It's easy and fast and works very well once you get the hang of it.

As for the way of tying knots being relevant: decades ago in my teenage years, after learning the bowline (paalsteek in Dutch) and sheetbend (schootsteek), I discovered that at their heart, they were the same know. And because I struggled with the bowline but mastered the sheetbend, I started using the sheetbend as a bowline, but that didn't work well, because my method didn't account for where the forces are going to pull on. So I still had to learn a proper bowline.

On the other hand, there are multiple ways to lay a mastworp/clove hitch, and they're all fine.

I’m guilty of using a square knot instead of a bend. What’s your favorite bend for joining two ropes of the same size?

If that's the point you're at just learn the sheet bend. It'll suffice for 90% of purposes. There's a reason it, alongside the bowline, are considered probably the two most important knots to learn.

To answer your question, I'm quite partial to the Zeppelin bend [0]. It's very secure, easy to tie correctly, can be tied in very stiff rope and doesn't jam. The only real disadvantage is that the working ends stick out to the sides, which may be a problem for certain applications.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_bend

Years ago I was walking through downtown when my old shoes collapsed on me. I walked into the first shoe store I saw (Ecco, good brand luckily). While trying on shoes, the clerk had the gall to ask me if I knew how to tie my shoes and then proceeded to actually explain step by step, how to tie a pair of shoes. Well, joke's on me, his way is better, and now it's the only method I use. On exiting nice dinner parties I have to stop myself mansplaining to my friends about proper technique. How one shoe salesman changed my life.

This is funny. One of those things that are so basic you’re sure you should be offended, but then lifechanging.

I’d have been caught off guard with the phrasing too, but at least he meant “the best way” or “the way he prefers” vs just straight up “do you know how?”

I was probably 35 years old when I got tired of having to re-tie my shoes the whole time. I googled and discovered that I had been using the granny knot all along.

It took about a month going through the phases to learn to unconsciously tie the correct knot in its place.

Tie a surgeon's shoelace knot [1] if you are a runner or when you tie your kids soccer cleats/boots. You'll thank me later.

[1]https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm

I like the better bow knot because it's a simple variation of the bunny knot I learned in school, and I like the look of it.

https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/betterbowknot.htm

Oh nice. The equivalent outcome tied in a different way, my preferred way: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/turquoiseturtleknot.htm . It hasn't failed me yet, easy to tie and untie!

This is interesting, because my whole life I have been told by people (my mom, classmates, etc.) that I tie my shoelaces in an unconventional way. Basically I have always used the Surgeon's Shoelace Knot but without steps 7 and 8 which, to my surprise, makes it the Standard Shoelace Knot.

Up until step 7 and 8 it is the standard shoelace knot. The end of step 6:

> Unlike the “Standard Shoelace Knot”, don't pull it tight just yet!

This is my favourite page on this subject: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknot.htm

Well actually, it’s the linked celeb page: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknottingcelebs.htm

After tying my shoes with a granny knot for 30+ years, I switched to the 'Ian Knot' after seeing this posted a couple years ago[1]. It took me a couple weeks to get really comfortable with the new knot, but I can't imagine ever going back.

[1] It comes up pretty regularly: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

That’s the technique I use to tie shoelaces, but unfortunately, it was too difficult to teach to my 5 year old so she’s stuck with the bunny-ears method. I’m open to suggestions if anyone has any!

Just add another loop and you have the better bow.

https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/betterbowknot.htm

This is also what I use, and I’ve taught several others how to do it as well!

The photo in The Famous Article clearly shows non-use of the heel-lock[0].

After 50+ years, I have finally figured out heel-lock usage, and formally promoted myself to Heel Lock Snob, and therefore must issue a stern: "Tut, tut" to lesser mortals.

[0] https://www.roadrunnersports.com/blog/heel-lock-lacing

This reminded me of a short TED talk, I watched many years ago, where a guy showed how to tie your shoes. Here it is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFcV7zuUDA&pp=ygUUdGVkIGVkIHR...

I thought it is the explanation of how to tie shoes without wasting time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPIgR89jv3Q

Cheap knockoff of the TED talk.

This is horrific.

The easiest way to fix this for me is to swap the first step, the second and third steps are so deeply ingrained that I don't think I could ever re-learn them.

This has now completely ruined how I tie shoelaces. Thanks asshole! I hope you're happy that now my shoes don't untie themselves 10 times a day.

Edit: For reference I have always tied "Cross left over right and tuck, loop with the right lace, wrap [left] lace over the loop and pull: granny knot.". Somehow this suggests I am left handed (I am right handed).

The article contains some mistakes in its list of options, you can't loop and wrap the same lace. 4 items in the list make this error.

I tied them exactly the same way until just now, and am also right-handed. The author's statistics may be incorrect. Also, this is going to take some time to adjust.

Very pleased to see plenty of links to https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ in the replies, and very disappointed to see it completely absent from the main article. Ian's Shoelace Site is a great reminder of what the internet used to be.

Velcro is the correct answer.

After having to remove the stuff from my daughter's hair this weekend I'm now certain that it is stronger than any knot you would tie for their use case.

Velcro does wear out. The loops wear down and the hooks will get packed with whatever crud they pick up: grass, hair, fuzz, etc. You can’t do much about worn out loops, but you can painstakingly clear the hooks with a sewing needle.

Contrast to replacing a pair of shoelaces, which is simply a matter of relacing the shoes.

It also matters what kind of shoelace you're using. With a boot lace a reef knot will struggle to stay tied simply because the lace can slip through the knot. And easy fix for this is to tie what I've heard called a superknot. The way that works is when you wrap the loose end around the loop wrap it twice around the loop before you pass it through and pull tight. This extra wrapping provides a grip that is better than a single wrap.

In my experience the typical flat cotton sneaker laces work fine with a regular reef knot. I also tie my shoes using the Ian way of creating the knot, if I'm wearing standard sneaker laces. It is much faster.

I simply do not use the reef knot. I instead do a taut knot then a few overhand knots over them then another taut knot in the opposite direction, so that the shoe remains secured to the foot even if it would mean ripping the feet away from the legs.

I love it! In 2011 I got fed up as I had to tie my shoes multiple times a day. So I did an onlie research and learnt that practically for twenty-x years I used to knot the granny knot. I also learnt to tie my shoe like this https://youtu.be/wMuNjnNyaiA

Apparently, I just did it the "correct" way, without even knowing my whole life.

A problem that I have more often is that I cannot untie my shoes anymore. What happens is that during the day the loose end slips through the loop. So when I try to pull on the opposite loose end to open the tie it gets stuck and can be very hard to open.

I still cannot understand the way people explain tying shoes. What's with the "wrapping the unlooped lace around the looped lace"? I'm trying to visualize that. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

It's just an ordinary "square" knot with the laces both folded in half in the last part of making the knot.

Yes, and you can make it by making two bights (folds in the string, aka "bunny ears") or just by making the folds as you push the string through the aperture formed by crossing the strings.

I don't really understand why people like the misnaming of the square knot/reef knot as the "Ian knot" either. To me that confuses things, as if it's not just a technique.

At some point I keep meaning to learn Ian's secure knot:

https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm

But I can never quite get round to doing it. I just double knot my shoes and that seems to be sufficient.

So apparently, I've been doing Granny knot my whole life (by doing Two loop wrong), but my shoes stay tied for days and days (I don't untie them when taking them on or off). So maybe it's not just about the knot.

This video by Professor Shoelaces whose articles are most cited in the comments explains is very well for the more untrained audience.

https://youtu.be/gVaS6TwzLc8

I love how the comments have coalesced to discussing the fieggen website, ignoring bigthink.

Who ties their shoes, you tie it once, strong, and just slip them on until they fall apart

I recently learned about "balancing" your shoelace knots and relearned how to tie my shoes (in my thirties). This describes the same principle, but doesn't call it balancing.

For fieggen’s secure knots, does it matter which direction the initial starting knot is tied in relation to the direction of the main knot, or is it too secure it doesnt matter?

Reading the comments it appears that my dad always did the Ian Knot, tried to teach me, but I misunderstood and all this time was just crisscrossing the two loops instead.

Stuff that! I have crocs, they're sturdy, reliable, and easy to slip on and off. Can even get designs that are more suited for "business" attire.

Dammit, I just looked at most of my shoes and they have Velcro!

Good lord what a load of waffle.

This is one area that LLMs really excel.

Summarise this, and follow up how to tie the knot correctly.

We need to stop paying writers by word count.

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