Tea as Hepatoprotective Agent: A Revisit | Hacker News Reader

Tea as Hepatoprotective Agent: A Revisit

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94 pointsanjel80 comments

It is worth pointing out, that this meta research, put forward by a team of "alternative medicine" proponents at Mangalore, is of relatively weak evidentiary strength and has not been replicated or strengthened since 2019.

Tea doesn't hurt, and there are some strong evidentiary ties of green tea extract in the easing of the effects of NAFLD, but generally it'd be dangerous to see it as a valid treatment option for viral Hepatitis or NAFLD effects.

“ Hepatoprotection or antihepatotoxicity is the ability of a chemical substance to prevent damage to the liver. This is opposite to hepatotoxicity.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatoprotection

Black tea is consumed principally in Europe, North America, and North Africa.

Totally left out East Africa,where Kenya is the world's 3rd largest producer of Tea,only a proportion of which gets exported.

Also, northern India and Yunnan province of China say "Hi we also drink black tea".

Also in Central Asia. They told me there: green tea in summer, black tea in winter.

And also, we keep the good one for us, we sell the bad one to Europe, we grind the very bad one and sell it to Europe to make tea bags. Luckily I almost never use tea bags.

And that's why I never buy Chinese products

Meta: I'd not realised that Sci-Hub was a permitted site on HN. It appears that it has been since at least 2019 looking at the site submission history link.

I'm not in the least displeased to learn this.

Just curious, why did you think it wouldn’t be?

"Sci-Hub is a shadow library website that provides free access to millions of research papers, without regard to copyright,[4] by bypassing publishers' paywalls in various ways."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub

Many of us approve of that.

Many of us do, indeed.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33698018>

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20781277>

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17652359>

(The /r/dredmorbius links in the comments linked above may be seen at the Internet Archive, as that subreddit has been taken private in protest of Reddit's recent policy direction.)

I'd discussed HN's linking SciHub directly with dang back in 2016, at which time his response was "I think that degree of anthill-overturning would be past prudent."

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11984443>

Apparently the anthill has been overturned for some time. No data on time/distance from prudent.

If this is the meta-thread ... this presentation is horrible for mobile and defeats HN's forewarning about PDFs.

With regards to mobile browsers, this can be mitigated with charitable practices similar to paywall avoidance, where a considerate user could reply with the direct link to the PDF. This is not necessarily easy on sci-hub (you have to do some poking around with your browser's dev tools), but can be useful if the DOI is queried in Anna's Archive.

This specific paper isn't available on AA, but to whom it may intrigue I think this works:

https://sci-hub.ru/downloads/2019-02-19/0c/10.1016@B978-0-12...

What are the non-permitted sites? Spam or other abuse, or consistently poor quality news sites?

There's a 2009 list of 2,096 banned sites posted by pg, along with general rationales:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=498910>

I'm not aware of a more current list.

I have a Partial Purine nucleoside phosphorylase (PNP) deficiency. It is a primary immunodeficiency. I cannot drink tea, and green tea is the wqrst for me since catechins (primarily EGCG) inhibits the PNP enzyme[1] as do quite a few other "healthy" foods like curcumin.

It is best to know yourself and if tea makes you feel worse it might not be good for you.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262327467_Natural_p...

Thanks for sharing. I’m a doctor. If you don’t mind sharing, out of curiosity how were you diagnosed with this? Not one of the primary immunodeficiencies I see tested, but I’m not a medical geneticist or pediatrician.

Hey doc. Well, I had consistently low WBC counts (leukopenia), skin infections, sinus infections, lung infections (and nodules), as well as recurrent fungal infections. Doctors offered no explanation.

In 2014 I had my genome run on 23andMe and through digging and getting a second genome run I confirmed that I was homozygous for rs1049564 (and other SNPs) in my PNP gene.

I was finally able to push for a PNP activity test which revealed low activity. I do not think the doctors would have ever tested for this.

Here is the paper that persuaded them to do the test: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Purine-nucleoside-phosph...

Since it is only a partial deficiency it did not cause catastrophic effects as a child, but as I got older it became worse.

Here is a paper talking about the partial deficiency: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32695102/

I also have neurological issues (mood disorder) that I blame on the same deficiency.

Wow. I applaud this effort.

Been working on studying pharmacogenetics / pharmacogenomics / toxicogenomics focused on phenols such as catechins in tea. (Activity 'C' of https://docs.google.com/document/d/11f2bzMRbAgCJyoaEmxXKVytl... )

Would love to understand how you researched this, as locating relevant research literature has been challenging.

(updating my user page with contact)

Hey Rick, it took a lot of time and a lot of emails to people researching the topic. But the key was the doctor's constantly diagnosing me and then diagnosing me with Lupus. Finding the link with Lupus and PNP SNPs was the key. The Lupus diagnosis was always back and forth because apparently PNP deficiency lowers immunoglobulin levels as well and that is the test that gets you in the door to the rheum only when it is high.

Many other phenol's and polyphenols seem to give me issues as well.

Also, you might take a look at the interaction between riboflavin and catechins. There is something going on there I do not quite understand:

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/9/10/1908

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6837740/

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing. I’m glad you were able to arrive at a diagnosis. I’m sorry to hear it was such an odyssey. I wonder how many other patients like you we are missing.

As someone with iron overload who benefits from green tea: It's powerful stuff. One of the only chelators you can get that targets the brain. I have the opposite effect and a green tea addiction.

I've been a dedicated tea drinker since my teens, so this is great news.

OTOH what I worry about is oesophageal cancer. Not sure of the prevalence.

Don't know any stats from the top of my head, but I recall that oesophageal cancer is caused by drinking _hot_ tea, not by drinking tea per sé.

I usually cool my tea with a splash of milk. But I do then drink it very quickly at an elevated temperature.

Avoid drinking liquids hotter than 140 f.

One interesting "test" - take a sip of the liquid, and it does not seem that hot, put your finger in your mouth with the liquid and your finger might feel too hot.

140 degrees Fahrenheit = 60 degrees Celsius

As another data point, this is generally hotter than most “hot” water taps in your kitchen or bathroom.

No. Please check for legionellae if your warm water is cooler than 60 deg Celsius.

NO. 60 degrees minimum for storage, but 50 degrees maximum at the tap. The latter temperature is the relevant one here, because that’s the user experience.

https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/energy-and-environment/safe-ene....

https://build.com.au/hot-water-system-regulations

https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/consumers/guides/hot-water-safety

140 degrees Fahrenheit = 344 kelvin

Apparently it's more like 333 K.

Yeah but it's a dry kelvin

> Avoid drinking liquids hotter than 140 f.

I often drink plain hot water (pot from kettle into cup; no trip through the teapot). I have always assumed it is safe. Perhaps I should reconsider?

> drinking hot tea, not by drinking tea per se.

It is unclear to me that there is any way to drink tea than other than piping hot.

I have heard horror stories that suggest people have attempted to drink cold tea but I figure such tales are merely intended to provoke disgust.

Cold tea does indeed provoke disgust. Iced tea, on the other hand, is quite its own art form.

As a programmer, every hot drink is only hot for the first few sips; all others range from lukewarm to room temperature.

grab yourself one of these: https://www.nespresso.com/au/en/order/accessories/original/t...

This has been the most successful keep hot mug I've ever bought (and I've bought a lot). This thing can keep a hot drink hot for a looooong time.

Indeed, iced tea is all over the U.S. South, where they put in enough sugar to blow out other organs, but at least the liver is saved.

Copious amounts of high fructose corn syrup will assuredly also blow out your liver.

And probably sooner.

I've always found tea acceptable at a wide range of temperatures. Room temperature to boiling, it's all good, same as water. (But not same as red wine or beer, the other 2 types of liquid I will drink.)

I do admit this rule does very much not apply when mixing tea with milk!

Cold tea infusion my boy - a nice strong ice tea on a hot summer day is one of life’s little pleasures. Splash of lemonade optional. Sugar very much optional.

Sugar is optional in tea the way screaming is optional in a library.

I love my morning infusion of green tea with stevia leaves. I take the first cup hot and then prepare a 2 litter jug with "cold infusion" and ice for the rest if the day .

Some people loathe the flavour of stevia leaf, but I am completely used to it by now.

I guess.. why? Do you dislike green tea by itself? I love iced teas, and for me any sweetness detracts.

To each their own, it’s just so foreign I can’t imagine.

"Tea, Earl Grey, hot"

Now this worried me. I love my tea — the milk tea without sugar. And I can’t drink it unless it’s simmering hot. Sometimes I reheat it if I forget about it and it became slightly cooler.

Green tea/etc (ie without milk) however I can drink even ice cold.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32740163/

Compared to those who consumed <300 g/month tea leaves at ≤65°C, those who consumed more than 300 g/month tea leave at >65°C had a more than 1.8-fold higher risk of esophageal squamous cell carcinoma for both green tea and black tea.

As someone who doesn't know much about epidemiology, is 180% relative risk considered scary for something with a fairly low prevalence such as esophageal cancer?

We are the most tea-drinking country in the world afaik, Turkey. We’re fine, but one particular city (Erzurum) has a weird tradition of putting a sugar under the tongue and drinking the tea very hot to (probably?) dissolve it easily. They drink it almost out of the teapot, boiling-hot. They have very high rates of esophagous cancer.

What of the fluorine in it? Blank tea has more than 6x as much as fluorinated water, with white and green tea having the least.

This comment ruined my day but I appreciate it nonetheless. This wasn't on my radar at all.

Beware that green tea supplements have been associated with very sever liver damage. Even though most survive, they often require prolonged intensive care, with attending complications, muscle wasting, etc.

Good reference here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547925/

Read this, seems A) rare and B) not clearly due to green tea extract.

The data is basically anecdotal and there isn’t a lot of cases. And none of the cases were due to using green tea, they were herbal mixtures with many ingredients.

It is rare, and is probably due to a combination of green tea and weight loss. However, the effects are catastrophic, and it worth pointing out before someone decides to use tea extracts to "protect" their liver.

There are more cases that appears through cursory review of the literature, as most go unreported/unpublished. I have seen one case myself, and the person barely survived.

This is a weird thing to comment about, but maybe it's feedback for someone and might be informative.

I love tea. I would love to read this article. But, the tall font is horrible, distracting and discouraging me to do so. This is probably the first time in my life that I closed a web page due to the font of the body text.

(I have saved it for later is some readable format provided by my browser)

EDIT. I retract my previous comment. The font was only unreadable on my phone (iOS), it's perfectly fine as I went to the website on a desktop.

Interesting, considering how many people get liver damage from taking green tea extract and EGCg.

The dose makes the poison I suppose. Also I wonder who drinks more water than those who drink it flavored by leaves? I wonder if just drinking a lot of water is part of the effect.

Not really, unless one believes such extracts and tea leaves* are equivalent.

Edit for pedantry reasons: *prepared as a beverage

Brought to us by the Tea Marketing Board? Have to say I'm delighted that it will protect me from alcohol-induced damage. Back on the plonk it is then.

Tea?

- always organic (no pesticides)

- never with plastic teabags (no microplastics)

How does the effect size compare to milk thistle?

What's the bottom line or takeaway? This link opens a page that wants me to download a PDF, which I won't do.

Do a few grams worth of beta alanine, say up to 10grams and then tell me if you want to drink black tea!

What will happen if someone tries this?

I’ve experienced tingling sensations, like pins and needles, not sure if that’s what they’re referring to.

The paresthesia you refer to when taking beta alanine is much less intense than the paresthesia experienced if doing 500mgs of nicotinic acid. Side note. If anyone drops 500mg of nicotinic acid, the skin flushing effect and inflammation which can be likened to the sunburn effect, will be seen most where the skin is exposed to UV light because it rebinds the frayed strands of DNA in cells.

Its not what I'm referring to though.

Taking beta-alanine will increase Carnosine synthase activity and probably lead to a depletion of magnesium and/or manganese since they are the co-factors for the enzyme. So this effect will differ based on genetic and nutrition.

https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/A5YM72/entry

and the tea?

It will increase carnosine in the body, more if you exercise than are just sedentary, but beta alanine is concentrated in places like the olfactory bulb so will increase your sense of smell amongst other things, but its still not what I'm referring to.

Side note: If the aim is to increase carnosine in the body, I'd do carnosine as its better absorbed than beta alanine according to some studies, and then there's the remyelinating effect of histidine on the nervous system amongst other things, which is beneficial for some types of mental acuity, useful if you want to be a stand up comedian or some other verbally quick witted individual.

Well, what are you referring to? People's time is valuable, and figuring out some chemical puzzle for your amusement doesn't seem like a good use of it.

Beta Alanine and Bupropion will make you go off black tea, the beta alanine will make you throw up, the Bupropion will make you switch to green tea.

Ergo, is black tea really healthy for you, despite being the most drunk form of tea?

I think beta alanine could be used for addictive leaf based products, ie tea, cocaine and tobacco.

I guess I won't bother taking beta alanine then? I'm not sure how you conclude that ingesting something that disagrees with tea means that tea is bad. I used to drink more tea and now drink more water, perhaps because I exercise more which might raise beta alinine levels. But I haven't noticed any ill effects and greatly enjoy the large cup of tea I have at the end of my workout.

What does that have to do with tea?

I don’t know about how interacts with tea, but gym bro forums have talked about itching and anal itching in particular. Maybe the tea makes that worse? No idea.

What’s the connection between beta alanine and tea? Is it just the caffeine in the tea that causes some effect when they’re used in combination?

It's been two hours, and still I have no idea what beta-alanine has to do with tea.

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