> Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP.
I would be interested to hear more.
I would be interested to hear more.
A lot of good points are written down here: https://old.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/131t2k1/laravel_consid...
In short, it just doesn't use good programming principles. It's not just easy to write code with bad principles, it's everywhere in the tutorials.
There's of course Laravel apps out there that do have good programming principles. It's very much possible to write good code with Laravel. It's just less common.
God help us if it this project becomes the normal way of writing http go servers applications. Maybe at that point it's time to become an embedded rust programmer or a monk.
But PHP has more to give than just as a birthing ground for teenage programmers.
When I many years later accepted a PHP job as a senior developer, PHP provided a consistent experience of "bad practice everywhere", a fractal of cringe I couldn't ironically reproduce. Working with this for a year taught me a lot about how to deal with critical legacy software beyond repair and being responsible with what you've got.
I think there is no better way to get your hands consistently dirty than with PHP.
Coincidence: I do embedded Rust, and my wife is a buddhist monk. ;-)
I feel most of the PHP community is pretty mature these days. More pragmatic than Rust, sure but that is a good point in my book. Though I am glad you found your enlightenment.
That stof guy was one of the worst. Inconsistencies, incompatibility. But the dogma was strong.
Indeed they wanted to be the Java of PHP. And so inefficient. Imagine duplicating all variables of a request context for dogmas sake. So you can later do Request->getVar() from their own copy. It shows a basic not understanding of the language.
I can be more specific: I'm identifying problems with the language ecosystem.
I deliberately didn't shit on the people involved; I'll definitely ride the #not-all-php-programmers (I've met some great ones), but it takes a broken mind to accept a toolchain this historically fallible as something with which you'd want to recreate the Java ecosystem. ;-)
Have you tried Java?
It's definitely a better Java than PHP!
Who gives a shit about SOLID or OO.
I used to love PHP for its simplicity. That was before zealots of your type flooded the ecosystem.
You wanted to apply what they taught you in uni, which was Java, to PHP. PHP was fine before. I earned good money with it and had fun doing so. Then 2010 the next generation of clueless devs enters the scene, polluting it with their nonsense.
Very much what's happening in Go right now with the cloud microservices fetish.
Can't you booksmart idiots STFU for once and let people do the pragmatic and sensible approach?
Fucking Hipsters
The people who care about and are tasked with maintaining a large long running code base.
> You wanted to apply what they taught you in uni, which was Java, to PHP.
Nope, that came after my time.
> Can't you booksmart idiots STFU for once and let people do the pragmatic and sensible approach? I earned good money with it and had fun doing so. Then 2010 the next generation of clueless devs enters the scene, polluting it with their nonsense.
Those OO & OOP principles are the pragmatic and sensible approach learned after cleaning up after "hipster" web "artisans". If we're going to throw around claims without knowing anything about the other person; you sound like the kind of dev who writes some code that works on the happy path, but is completely unmaintainable and non-extensible.
(But I know nothing about you, so I really have NFI, just like you have NFI about me and what I do)
Laravel was the first framework, that "just worked" and had everything, you need to make your first steps in a web application. Nowadays, people write PHP components that are usable in Laravel and that means a lot of code out there is compatible to a lot of other code. That alone did a lot to the PHP community. 2010 or so, the PHP landscape was much more scattered and things didn't look good.
Since then a lot happened and Laravel carries old stuff with it, and I'm very happy about that! I'd hate to be forced to do big refactoring work on every update of the framework. As strange as some decisions in Laravel are, they try new things, and they also try to stay compatible to the old stuff. Between Laravel 5.5 (released 2017) and 10 there were not much breaking changes. For a framework, this is a big plus.
My experiences with cake and zend back ... 10-12+ years ago... things 'worked' mostly, but there was often a lot of "you can do it any way you want", and often minimal examples for the cases I was trying to achieve. Testing... as much as it was there, my experiences trying to get decent testing never seemed to work very well; Laravel's testing experience felt better out of the box. Testing traits like 'useDatabaseTransaction' to rollback the db after each test seemed both useful and novel - I don't remember seeing things like that in Cake (at least not early on - haven't checked recently).
FWIW, I use Laravel a lot these days, but wasn't terribly 'trusting' of it early on. Started seeing it in what I guess were its 3.x days; then saw 4.x - big changes, and what seemed like a moderate amount of BC breakage, then again from 4-5. Around 5.x, it seemed to adopt a bit more of an incremental approach to changes, and I started using it more day to day in the 5 series.
Laravel was awful when everyone else were awful. But around Laravel 5.5 (and PHP 7) it was complete enough, documented enough and fast enough, that you could just start building stuff with it without having to think about it. Is Laravel the best Framework out there? Not at all! But is also not considered harmful, far from it.