I don't fully understand why this is the case, but I hope that there's something that can be done to improve it. I'd love it if I could drive my AC unit as a heater for 95% of the winter, resorting to natural gas only during in the extreme cases.
I don't fully understand why this is the case, but I hope that there's something that can be done to improve it. I'd love it if I could drive my AC unit as a heater for 95% of the winter, resorting to natural gas only during in the extreme cases.
There are two popular varieties:
- Ground source heat pumps. Those work pretty much anywhere; just dig below the perma frost and you are good to go on the northern tip of Canada, Alaska, Norway, or wherever. Works great, ground temperatures tend to be very stable and it actually goes up the deeper you dig.
- Air source heat pumps. The expensive ones still work okish at extreme temperatures like -25-ish degrees C. Which is a reason these are actually more popular than ground sources even in places (e.g. most of Scandinavia) that reliably get such temperatures each winter.
But its an unfortunate fact that there are places in the US where installers that recommend heat pumps can't be found for 100 miles. It doesn't really matter if I'm technically correct about the merits of the tech in principle--if I can't find somebody to fix my system and my pipes start exploding, I've still made the wrong decision.
Also, heavy snows cause power outages in places where tree limbs fall on overhead lines. If gas outages happen... well I've never experienced one. Sure, if I lived in Norway I'd have a government that cares about updated infrastructure and I wouldn't have these problems, but since I don't, I do.
Given my local constraints, a dual-fuel system sounds pretty great.
Which are all good reasons why the market for domestic solar, batteries, and heat pumps is so hot right now. The US is no exception to this.
Most houses in Finland have a (decent) fireplace for heating in case of an electric outage.
If I lose power, my gas boiler does me no good. A gas boiler will use pumps (and likely a power vent). A gas furnace will use a fan and a power vent.
[1] You can of course get a much larger heat pump to compensate, but that leaves the unit way over-sized for cooling loads.
In other words heat-energy should be going into cold side of the heat-pump (even at a low temperatures) at the same rate as it is coming out the hot-side at high temperatures. Reduce the heat in, and you will reduce the heat out.
My understanding is that improved low temperature performance has something to do with varying the amount of refrigerant in the loop: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/keep-warm-this-wi...
Which I guess similarly explains a lot of weird conversations and people talking past each other where busses are concerned.
(I’m referring to normal air-to-refrigerant-to-air heat pumps. I know of a really weird system that is thoroughly American and an utter pain in the arse to replace because it’s specialized and undocumented. It’s quite loud, too, because it’s single-speed, and that single speed is waaaaay too high.)
Two solutions to this problem:
1) get a bigger/better heat pump.
2) improve you building insulation and figure out where you are losing energy.
We've been using 'reverse-cycle air-conditioners' for heating in Australia for decades. I'm puzzled as to why there is any debate at all on their use for heating. A heat-pump is far more efficient for obtaining heat than direct resistive heating using electricity.
Many houses here use no other form of heating at all. And then at the press of a button, we get cooling in summer too. What's not to like?
* I also have a heat-pump condensing clothes dryer. The overall heat thrown out into the room is extremely low. The hot-air comes out the hot-side of the heat-pump to dry the clothes. The warm-moist air then passes over the cold coils, condensing out the water from the clothes and returning the heat to the cold-side of the heat pump which then pushes that heat-energy out the hot-side, producing more hot air to complete the cycle. I've had this Miele heat-pump condensing dryer going strong since 2009 - 14 years.
Meanwhile, I'm annoyed that heat pumps that dump the waste heat into the hot water cylinder aren't standard.
Seems like its still pretty low in Europe outside some northern countries. Germany is less than 2000/100000 people.
https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/heat-pumps/top-countries
Meanwhile this link says US has a 15% adoption rate across all income groups. That seems higher than I expected.
https://energypost.eu/u-s-heat-pump-adoption-is-evenly-sprea...
Is there a better source on heat pump adoption rate in Europe and US?
For applications like commercial buildings, public swimming pools, industrial sites, etc. can (and increasingly do) definitely benefit from that kind of combination though.
I think this might eventually become a thing once science gets us far enough that there's an "obvious" refrigerant choice for most applications, but we definitely aren't there yet. There are hundreds of different kinds that perform better or worse in different applications.
AFAIK all of the big commercial systems that do multiple different types of heat transfer use water to do it, thus bypassing the entire refrigerant selection issue. Right now the most advanced we can do is VRF ("Variable Refrigerant Flow") systems that can individually select air handlers for cooling or heating (i.e. move the heat from one room to another). These are still commercial units and not really available for residential installs.
This enables your hot water heater to use the same circuit to heat water - that decreases your hot water bill to around a third, even in winter as the necessary heat isn’t taken from the indoor air but from the ground.
??? That's excessively long. Our heat-pump dryer takes about 20-30 minutes to do one of our loads.* The dryer invariably ends up waiting for the washer to finish.
* Our loads aren't excessively tight in the machine. You have to allow room for the clothes to tumble loosely thus allowing lots of surface area for evaporation.
Obviously, if every heat pump dryer took 20-30 minutes, you would not hear complaints about that (that’s much faster than my gas dryer).
Every heat pump dryer I looked at on the home center's website is 240V. (Edit: I found one Miele on another home center that was a 15A@120V.)
(That's also why they don't seem to use electric kettles in the US commonly as is normal in 220 volt countries)
I also do want to get a heat pump dryer (it's next on the list after my recently installed heat pumper hot water system), but I don't have quite enough space in the laundry and apart from two or three wet weeks a year I'd mostly only use it to fluff up towels (which is why I don't have a dryer at all at the moment)...
You'd think costs would educate. Do people not talk about living expenses much?
It cools better than the old system, and the fact that it runs longer instead of in short bursts means it regulates humidity way better too.
For heat we did go dual fuel, which means the backup heating element uses gas, since we already had the line. This works really well in a cold snap where temps drop well below freezing.
There are tax breaks involved with installing "energy star" rated equipment. Perhaps we ought to start witholding the star from AC units that are not easy to convert to heat pumps (and from thermostats, etc, which are not ready to handle the conversion).
(Seriously, where I live, you will likely pay $1k or slightly more to drain and refill the refrigerant. The hardware for an entire modern heat pump, indoor and outdoor components, is maybe $3-4k. Is it really worth it to drain an old existing unit, cut the pipes, add a reversing valve, retrofit in the controls, pressure test everything, deal with the fact that the outdoor unit (formerly the condenser coil) will start producing copious amounts of condensate that the manufacturer and installer did not anticipate, and refill the system?)
To add to the list of why this whole idea seems dubious: a conventional air conditioner operates with its evaporator coil at a balmy 50F or so. If you reverse it, the outdoor coil will become the evaporator, and it will operate below freezing if it’s cold out (even if the outdoor temperature is a bit above freezing). As a result, condensate can form and freeze on the coil.
This is entirely manageable (any modern heat pump can operate in decently chilly conditions, and heat pumps equipped for low temperature operation can operate in very cold conditions), but I expect that at least some engineering is involved.
As an aside, many have commented on the claim that heat pumps make more sense with a well insulated building, arguing that it should be the other way around. The reason that you do want a well insulated building is simply that air-to-air heat pumps are limited to typically less than around 8kW heating capacity, and with a well insulated house you can heat a large area with that, with bad insulation you can't, and you would need a much more expensive type - typically not those sold to home owners (or buy several pumps, exploding the costs). In addition to that, a heat pump is more efficient when it doesn't have to run at maximum capacity. The heat pumps sold in the Nordic countries are typically around $3000 including installation. And they're highly efficient.
However, even in the midst of winter, gas heating bills rarely climb above $100 monthly.
What am I missing here? It seems a heatpump, while more efficient, will cost significantly more to operate. Natural Gas is cheap... and clean enough.
1) Natural Gas is vastly cheaper in most/all of the US.
2) Homes still require an alternative heating source when temperatures drop to low levels (coincidentally when people need heating the most).
So, even if a heatpump is technically more efficient in terms of emissions, the technology does not solve all of the problems it's attempting to replace. Additionally, Natural Gas is vastly more clean in terms of emissions than some other alternatives still used around the country.
There's no way the average home is going to stomach 2-4x more heating expenses on average without some real tangible benefit (hand-wavy emissions numbers don't factor into the average homeowner's decision making).
I must be missing something here...
> ... > I must be missing something here...
Yes you are, your natural gas subsidized, i.e. government handout, i.e. you're not paying the real market cost.
Second, heat pumps do not have issues with cold temps, unless you're at like -40c. They're used all over the nordic countries - including above the arctic circle.
Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high.
> Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high.
Adding a heatpump solves this issue, or makes it worse?
In Germany you get way cheaper electricity prices if you allow this.
What do you mean by "modulate"? Your utility provider decides how much heat your home gets? That's a very strange concept.
If you have warmer days now and then then you'll start saving money, and eventually it'll pay for itself. Where I live (cold winters), the cost was covered in only two years.
The only backup heat I had with the heat pump was electric resistance heat, which I needed to use only once or twice each winter for a few hours at a time.
Obviously you wouldn't install solar panels and a battery just for this, otherwise it's very much not free, and probably a lot more expensive than burning gas. But if you already have the solar+battery install, and have enough capacity, it could even be cheaper to operate than a gas furnace.
We cut the amount of gallons we used by over 50% compared to last year. Sure the oil infrastructure is needed to get it delivered (I wish we didn't need it) but I'm very happy that our heating (oil+electricity) bills are so much lower, even with the increased oil prices.
We went with a mid-range system but now I kind of wish we sprung for the "Cadillac" version.
What you do is wait for the A/C to hit end of life (or end of efficient life if new systems are enough more efficient) and replace it outright.
(I once got a quote, in an expensive market, to add an A/C to an existing furnace and, separately, to remove the furnace and add a three-head multi-split heat pump. The two quotes were almost the same price. The equipment is not especially expensive.)
Nate the House Whisperer is a guy who has been trying to build a new generation of HVAC practice, and though he says he's usually a libertarian, he advocates for adding a tax to AC-only units that would eliminate this price difference (or some similar practice, I forget the exact details...)