How Lee Valley built a cult-like following | Hacker News Reader

How Lee Valley built a cult-like following

theglobeandmail.com

100 pointsbookofjoe72 comments

I'm part of the cult, LV has some unique and quality items that are only available there, especially for woodworking and kitchen. Durable items that will last a lifetime, clear concise description, no BS website.

I had to call once for some backordered item and was pleasantly surprised that someone just picked up the phone, no automated system, no wait time.

>clear concise description

Except they sometimes leave the brand of the item out of the product title or description which is super annoying. There have been times where I've looked for sellers of certain products in Canada, and having failed, ordered from the states or Amazon. But then I later realize that the product I want is sold at Lee Valley under some generic name.

One example is the Water Right garden hose [1]. They don't ship to Canada but you can get in on Amazon. You can also get it at Lee Valley but nothing on the site indicates it's the Water Right hose [2]. I only realized by examine the images. I would have loved to have supported Lee Valley, but by the time I noticed I'd always bought from Amazon.

[1] https://www.waterrightinc.com/

[2] https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/garden/water-and-irriga...

I also don't appreciate this, but I understand it is because they cannot compete on price, and if they are selling identical products this is one way to try and differentiate their offering. Example: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/garden/water-and-irriga... vs. https://www.canac.ca/en/spray-gun-77003365 maybe a poor example because they do indicate the brand.

For woodworking tools, WoodRiver has been getting my business more and more because the quality seems to also be there but the cost is significantly less than LV.

WoodRiver is a US brand for tools manufactured by Quangsheng tools in China. They are sold all over the world under different brand names. In the past few years, a similar factory has emerged in India with lots of different brands selling them.

They make decent tools. I'm sure the US and Canadian premium tools (LN and LV) are better but at least in Europe the price difference (after taxes and customs) is steep and difficult to justify.

Preach. I got a Lie Nielsen shipped to Germany. I'll only get another if I can buy it in-person during vacation, beat it up a little to look used, and bring it back in checked luggage without the original packaging.

Illegal? yes. Immoral? I'm not so sure.

Customs is ridiculous. DHL tacks on a 6 Euro fee if VAT isn't prepaid. Sellers often list the RRP instead of the paid price. (Newsflash: if I payed less than RRP, that was the market price when I bought it, so that should be the price listed on the CN 23!)

I paid more than twice what I should have on the last package I got from the U.S. It was on sale for 30% off, but the seller listed the RRP, which, plus delivery costs, put it over the threshold for adding customs fees. Adding on the post office's fee, it was 56 or 58 euros rather than 24 or 25 had they simply prepaid EU VAT on the charged amount. All this I know, because I also bought their competitor's product for essentially the same price, but the competitor (admitted, a much larger business) had a global delivery partner to handle the shipping and taxes.

I'd get a metal Ulmia or a KUNZ-plus if they didn't require work getting them true and sharp. I'd get a knockoff if the knockoff brands start to innovate and introduce new designs. With Veritas, Lie Nielsen, and Clifton, I know I'm supporting innovative small businesses and owning functional art that maintains its resale value after decades of heavy use.

> In the past few years, a similar factory has emerged in India with lots of different brands selling them.

Do you happen to know the name of the factory or any of the brands?

Perhaps Anant? I can say from experience that Anant is not remotely equal in quality to QuangSheng.

Woodriver is certainly cheaper than LV. Are you comparing woodriver tools to any of the brands in the LV catalog? Or strictly comparing them to the Veritas tools? I think a lot of the no name tools in the LV catalog are over priced and of questionable quality. But I do not think woodriver is on par with anything that says Veritas.

Yeah, if one peddles in knock-offs w/o doing any of one's own engineering work, cost is a lot lower:

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/05/21/who-begot-who-com...

I think this is similar to Costco minus the bulk. For me, most of the utility in Costco is that I trust the products they sell are fairly quality.

In the world of AI spam and Amazon rip off, this quality moderation will become more valuable

And on the rare occasion a turkey sneaks through, you can take it back to Costco with no fuss or questions asked.

Every Veritas tool I’ve purchased from Lee Valley has stung when I purchased it. But after I’ve been using the tool for a day or two, I don’t know how I lived without. The combination of design innovation with quality is really impressive.

“Buy once, cry once” as they say. I’ve found it a good rule but one I must apply very selectively. Knowing where to spend on quality and where to make do with junk is a bit of an art in itself, I believe.

It is an art and takes experience to know when to apply it.

There are a ton of tools in my garage I have only used once or twice. They're closer to the junk end of the scale and that's just fine. Even at that quality level, it might take me another 20 years to wear out or break them.

You can only bust your knuckles so many times on a cheap ratchet, though, before it just isn't worth it. Cheap blades that snap and chip are terrible too.

Sometimes the price is a complete lie too. The more I think about it, the harder I realize this is.

"Buy cheap tools until you know what you really need from that tool, then buy the best version you can afford." -Adam Savage

Cheap tools are often so bad that you will conclude the problem is you and not the tool - then you will hire the work done and find a new hobby.

For most things, Harbor Freight is good enough for Harry Homeowner. You’re gonna be doing a lot of crying if you buy the fanciest tools for every one-off job you run into.

I only own a marking gauge, one router plane, and knife. They're extremely high quality.

For me it's veritas for anything with a blade (and incra for anything measurey).

I have a few veritas planes and they really are fantastic, the innovation is great too, one of the only companies doing any new designs in this space. I love the look of the new number 1 sized plane, it's on my list.

Am also lucky enough to have a got a Lie Nielsen plane before they became like gold dust, similar quality but there's something about Veritas designs that I like more.

That being said I have a 1960s Record No 4 I use for a lot of smoothing, old, tatty and the blade doesn't hold an edge for long, but sharpened regularly it can achieve a mirror like finish on most wood - no sanding required.

Did I read that right? You have no other woodworking tools?

edit: and if I did read it right, share some of your woodworking projects!

I meant the only thing from Veritas!

The line "we are an editor for the consumer" is entirely apt. I go to Lee Valley looking for something that will do the job and is more than likely of good quality. To their credit, they often stock both a mid-range item (e.g. a $80 pair of camping axes) alongside top-range ($230 Swedish-smithed axes) and I can choose between them without having to go off reading reviews or other internet hot takes. Their ability to maintain stock levels is also relatively good.

I think the article misses out on the best part: the stores are a treat to wander around. You can bring your dog in and there's something interesting in nearly every corner. Staff are unfailingly polite and accommodating. I look forward to trips there while those to the larger Home Depot are more function-driven.

Glad to see them getting good coverage and recognition.

Also, YMMV, but I've found their staff are pretty helpful.

I once went in to buy their store-brand garden knife since I've had good luck with a bunch of their gardening stuff. As I pulled it off the shelf, an employee told me that their design had a big flaw and that lots of customers bring them back for returns. He told me I'd be better off with cheaper options from Amazon with a different design.

It's a luxury brand. I have been there twice for specialty tools, and while it's not what Hermès has become, they do have an analogous network of craft manufacturers and the core of their business is/was from people who actually do something.

I think the secret to a luxury brand is to take something people love and then imagine and make the perfect version of a tool for it without being constrained by costs. It's the pursuit of an ideal. For that example, it was horse tack with a successful accessories business that took off, for LVMH it was travel trunks for grand tours. For Lee Valley, it was woodworking and gardening. I'd venture that behind every upper tier luxury brand, there is an essential activity that people love, and they don't see the money go in pursuit of it.

I… don’t really follow this take? I agree that Lee Valley occupies a position at the top of the market, but I don’t think it’s about luxury, at all. My father was a cabinet maker, my mother a school teacher. They built their own home in the countryside, grew much of their own food, and could not have been less interested in “luxury” in any familiar sense of the word; but the shop and house is full of stuff from Lee Valley, because it is consistently high quality, and they don’t like buying stuff that gets thrown away.

I think your comment maybe conflates quality with luxury?

"Lee Valley" sounded vaguely familiar, so I plugged it into my email. Turns out I purchased 2 hanging wine glass racks [0] from them in 2020 for $6.20 apiece (to go above my kitchen sink on either side). We're talking generic "wire" 2-up wine glass racks I got to maximize space in my very ordinary rental apartment. I spent 5-10 minutes researching and identified Lee Valley as the best vendor for this very specific need, when I didn't trust the selection at the large Ace Hardware a mile away. Not remotely luxury, in my scenario ("Ikea for hardware"). But reflecting good SEO, clear photos and product specs, and low-friction checkout! Shipping was $7.95 by the way.

[0] https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/hardware/kitchen-hardwa...

Lee Valley Tools has really excellent products and their stores are like museums, but you may have have bought into their brand too much. Their stuff isvery high quality, and very high quality is what a luxury good is. It's like flying first class and then treating it as necessary because it's an absurd affront to your humanity to tolerate how poorly everyone is treated. "First class isn't extravagent, it's basic dignity!" goes the reasoning. Personally, I could never afford cheap things either, but often one must.

Some companies have figured out that they can just sell cheap symbols that impress the sort of people who are impressed by that sort of thing, and they use a similar formula where the essential activity is getting attention or going to nighclubs and parties, but yes, your parents collected slightly more rarefied luxury products.

I think your comment maybe conflates highly priced 'cheap' tat with luxury? Or 'fashionable' to put it more neutrally perhaps.

I would like to distinguish the kind of luxury in which things are built with excellence and style and priced accordingly with a reasonable but not necessarily small margin…

And things like the thousand dollar hoodie which by all appearances is just a hoodie with a particular brand on it.

My last trip to Lee Valley: 1. Pick out items I want on website, add to cart 2. At checkout, it says allow a few hours for order picking. Store closes in an hour, I want it today. 3. Call - Manager says just print the cart and bring it. Yes, I can understand why that might be best. 4. Bring the printout to store, take a number, give it to the guy at the desk. He then asks me if I can pull up the order on my phone??? 5. Sure, OK, try to pull it up on my phone. Manager comes out, tells the guy to just go pick the stuff 6. Guy proceeds to start manually transcribing the printed order onto a handwritten order/pick sheet??? 7. Guy gives up, takes my printout and walks to get the stuff. Takes forever, you don't mind because there is so much great stuff to look at. You wish it took longer. 8. Guy comes back with the stuff, proceeds to hand-enter each part and quantity into the point of sale system???

It was a bit of a blast from the past. I think the guy was messing with me to some extent. But, I wouldn't trade it for anything! I'm a happy customer. Couldn't care less about the customer service or creaky old internal systems that bleed into customer experience. I perceive the quality as high and perceive the value as good, and the ordering experience as some sort of retro trip to an old school department store/warehouse. It's awesome.

We have a massive electronics retailer in my city, who has operated since the 80s or 90's. Their website is crappy, it's got that 2000s era e-commerce aesthetic.

But their physical store. Oh man. Outfitted with the latest and greatest high tech equipment... if you are still in 1997.

They have this touch screen driven ticketing kiosk. When you enter you get a ticket with a number so someone can call you up at the sales desk. The kiosk is prime 90's tube-tv tech, a big and heavy 23in beast.

I don't want them to ever change.

I don’t buy a lot of their other products but IMO the fine woodworking stuff always hits the mark. It’s not about brand for me, it’s about quality. Their gear also saved me hundreds of hours when model-making in architecture grad school. Have never regretted a purchase.

Another excellent article on this wonderful company:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/h...

and I really wish pay slope would be a standard part of discussion of company finances and profits and ethics.

I'm always glad of the chance to order from Lee Valley, and have a fair number of their tools (and am beginning a collection of their miniature tools) --- that said, I don't completely like the design language/aesthetic of many of their tools --- it's somewhat streamlined/modern, but also a bit traditional and it just doesn't quite click with me for a fair number of their tools. The reproductions are awesome though, and a few of the tools are really appealing.

Other companies whose aesthetic is a better fit for me and which I think have a more consistent aesthetic presentation:

- Lie-Nielsen --- unabashedly traditional, they nevertheless make many small improvements which result in wonderful tools which are a great improvement on their vintage predecessors

- Blue Spruce Toolworks --- a company which does both wonderfully traditional tools (their chisels and mallets) and new designs which take advantage of modern materials (their "Ultimate Coping Saw")

- Bridge City Tool Works --- John Economaki has had two major periods, the first of traditional and unique tools in traditional materials (brass, steel, and rosewood) with some incredibly innovative options which still have no equal in the market, while the second, after his hospitalization for an allergic reaction to tropical hardwoods embraces aluminum in a way which has some folks joking about "tools for the Terminator to use", a third period is still unfolding with the sale of the company to a Chinese firm, and a new business model where daily sales with a limited number of items available at the sales price capitalizes on FOMO to ensure a consistent cash flow, and to allow load-balancing of their inventory. That said, the new prices are great, though the quality control apparently needs (or needed? resolved now?) work.

I think the article misses on comparable stores. They're all specialty goods, sometimes decent quality and sometimes cheap, considering what they are.

I just bought a scythe from Lee Valley. I checked out Lehman's first, but decided I wanted to try the slightly cheaper (simpler?) version at Lee Valley.

I bought some kitchen tools from Lee Valley that seemed promising but broke right away. A spatula broke at the weld while trying to flip a sandwich! From then on, Sur La Table has been my first stop for kitchen stuff.

For woodworking tools, they seem better quality than Garrett Wade and cheaper than Woodcraft.

For hardware, they might have what I'm looking for if a place like House of Antique Hardware doesn't. Or if they both have it, Lee Valley will be more affordable.

And those are just the things I shop for there.

This is a Canadian publication, and while I know of Lehman's [& Keim + Weaver Leather Supply] from my wife having Amish foster parents, I haven't heard of the rest of the retailers you mention, and I doubt the vast majority of Canadians would have any awareness or context of those enterprises.

So jealous of people having access to stores like these. Here in Europe where I am it's just one or two stores that sells tools, they have the exact same catalog, same prices and impossible to find specialty tools.

When working on my motorbike I needed a "special" kind of wrench (which is supposed to be common in the US and according to the Haynes guide) - impossible to find here.

Even after I tracked down a "special, professionals only" store (which do exist, but they're not a chain and have no ecommerce) the guy told me he knew exactly what I was looking for but sorry we don't sell that and no idea where you can get it.

You tried a big tool specialist like ManoMano? Plenty of pros will actually sell to regular people here...

Thanks for the suggestion. Is it much different from Leroy Merlin ?

It's more like a marketplace, you can find stuff that will never be seen in a big box store...

I've bought specialty woodworking tools from Dictum that are good quality

https://archive.ph/eJq4D

Just a note, been a woodworker all my life, I prefer the planes from Lie-Nielsen [0]. Sure, the low angle jointer from LV has some interesting features, but I feel like the LN are just more well made. Also, Lie NIelsen is just a one guy owned company in Maine, so you are buying from a guy who has a foundry in the states, which is pretty cool.

On the other hand, the LV / Veritas bench vices are supposed to be top notch.

[0] https://www.lie-nielsen.com/

LN and LV have said they are not in competition with each other - anyone who buys from one will be happy and soon looking for another tool and likely to look at the other. They are in competition with the cheap tools that don't work as anyone who buys them will find a new hobby.

I have the LN rabbeting block plane, and it is my go-to.

Next major tool purchase is an LN shooting plane --- I just wish that they could afford to make an update to the Stanley #52 shooting board.

From having a stock of good woodworking tools?

Not just woodworking tools. Everything you need to make your own casket except the oak, from tools through the specialized hinges and latch for smooth closure action and a silent and dependable last click. And the project plans to go with it.

I didn't read the article beforehand :)

I do quite a bit of shopping there, though mostly tools (dang I love Veritas) rather than their quirker items.

Not even just woodworking tools, everything there is high quality.

Can confirm, I have their measuring spoons. Which I found because I was buying their box-maker's plow plane.

I have a butter measuring tool from them that is metal with the measurements engraved in. Beats anything plastic and it will last a lifetime

Their founder, Leonard Lee, was a super nice guy that my parents had the fortune of meeting a few times. He opened a medical device design firm next door to my mother's office and was always a nice neighbor.

It's such a breath of fresh air when a successful business person is also just a really nice person. It's a counter example to the idea that only cut-throat sociopaths rise to the top.

When looking at their axes I came across Walrus Oil Axe Oil[1]. When clicking on the description I was half hoping it was real and something so exotic still existed in the world and half hoping it wasn't real.

[1]https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/log-bu...

Their Veritas woodworking tools are some of the nicest ones I’ve ever used. I didn’t know they sold kitchen stuff but now I want to buy it.

It reminds me of Restoration Hardware, back when they sold hardware. They used to have heavy brass door and cabinet hardware with lousy tolerances. My favorite was when they had a small bucket full of metal rulers. The rulers were not all the same length, varying by about 2mm.

Now they're called RH and are a high end Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

Lee Valley has excellent quality tools for a fair price. They are interesting in that they don't just make updated versions of Stanley tools, but have some pretty unique designs as well. All of my joinery planes are Lee Valley's Veritas brand and they have been a wonderful purchase.

"Traditional Austrian Scythe Set"

* https://www.leevalley.com/shop/garden/lawn-care/scythes/1019...

I was in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and there was a guy using one of these at the top of a bank cutting some type of long grass.

LV is a very solid brand. I used them a lot but once I discovered Japanese tools I did a total switch and won't look back. Lots of Japanese stuff is entering the US market and the tools are very serviceable - I can easily take apart and sharpen, clean, tweak the planes for example.

Any suggestions on brand names, websites, etc. for these Japanese tools?

It caters to the creative, and inspires people to overestimate the finite time they have for hobbies.

They are successful, as their retail locations always have something that holds consumer interest.

* novelty: check

* utility: check

* perceived scarcity: check

* aesthetically pleasing: check

Most inventory passes most brand sanity check rules of investment.

Good work folks, you put the art in artisanal. =)

Lee Valley's wares might be expensive, but they're (for the most part) great quality and last a long, long time. I'm still tools and kitchen implements I bought from them in the early 2000s. Just goes to show that quality lasts, and pays for itself over time.

Another big fan of Lee Valley. A good example of a company that doesn’t need to go public or appease VC and appears to be focused more on quality rather than quantity. I hope it always stays that way.

I still use everything I’ve bought from Lee Valley. My mom still hangs her clothes with the stainless steel clothes pins I bought her more than decade ago. Their stuff is expensive by lasts forever.

It is always a great day when I open my mailbox and see a Lee Valley catalog sitting there. I don't order from them very often, but they are always interesting to browse through.

I read this title as Lees Valley[0] and thought, wow, their beef and/or wool must be next level. Presumed it was the beef, as they're not even running merinos.

[0]: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife/audio/...

Their draw knives are crap.

I'd like to see the catalogue. Unfortunately their Instagram doesn't seem to have as good copy.

Ah yes, they're one of those old-fashioned outfits that uses its own website to present themselves.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/tools/brand/veritas

Their catalogs are available online:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/catalogs

They have a website.

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