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Comment by john_max_1 | Hacker News Reader

When was the last time, Facebook launched a successful standalone product?

  - WhatsApp - acqusition
  - Instagram - acquistion
  - Messenger - acquisition
  - Oculus - acquisition

Facebook has DNA to optimize feeds. It, simply, lack the DNA to build good products from scratch. My gut feeling no one will care about Threads, 6 months from now.

EDIT:

  - Facebook was all-in on cryptocurrencies. The project is fully gone.
  - Facebook was all-in on Messenger as a platform. The project is gone as well.
  - Facebook also launched dating a few years back. That project is dead too.
  - Someone pointed out in comments that Feed & Like as a concept was also based out of an acquisition called FriendFeed - https://techcrunch.com/2009/08/10/facebook-acquires-friendfeed/

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Marketplace dominates used goods in my area. I don't think it matters that it's not "standalone," it was a new area and they grabbed the market share.

Running threads off IG has a good shot too.

Yup, despite Facebook's best attempts to ruin it.

(No one wants to have products shipped from scammy sellers, Facebook, please stop making that the default search option.)

That was a natural extension to Facebook conversations and was not a standalone product.

This is functionally an extension of Instagram. It’s no more standalone than, say, Messenger.

Groups has also slowly become a killer feature of FB. There are very strong niche communities there; it’s a direct competitor to Reddit in that way. It’s pretty much the only reason I keep opening the FB app, but it is enough to keep me opening it.

Buy sell groups or niche interest groups? Do you discover them from search

I wouldn't call them "niche" interest groups.

Facebook Groups are very popular in the country I live. (Reddit is too American-centric to have ever really caught on.)

I'm in groups on legal stuff (19,000 members), boardgames (16,000 members), family stuff likes activities for kids (9,000 members), roadtrips (5,000 members), camping (9,000 members), food (41,000 members), dog lovers (14,000 members), and a general city group (150,000 members), a group for my neighborhood (22,000 members), a musicians network (3,300 members), pens (montblanc, etc; 8,800 members)

Most those groups are just for my city (i.e. the dog lovers is just for dog lovers in my city).

On french facebook there's a whole community that's actually exactly subreddits, it's called "neurchi de [...]" ("neurchi" is "chineur" reversed, which translates to "bargain hunter"). Any niche, or not niche, topic has its neurchi group that range from low hundreds to 100,000+ for some.

I love verlan

Groups +1

As well as local area groups there are quite a few niche hobby groups on Facebook. I'm converting a van into a campervan and on Facebook there are groups specific to converting my van that have the same number of users as the whole vanlife subreddit.

The only thing I don't like is it is tied to my real name and friend circle... I see in my feed friends posts in groups I am not a member of, so I guess it does the same for me. In my recommendations was a BDSM group... Yeah not on Facebook :D

When I read others on HN talk about the Facebook experience it often feels like they have a completely foreign viewpoint to you and me.

When I open Facebook, I don't see ranting family members. I see half a dozen groups and pages full of or operated by people I don't know.

That's a byproduct of pages you've liked, people you follow and groups you've joined. Beyond that, content you've engaged with.

Take time to prune and shape your network. Unfollow people / brands you have no interest, friend/follow those you do. Maybe join a group that matches your interests or local community groups.

Kind of like clutter in your house, taking time to clean up as your interests evolve, or to some extent undo sins of the past, can make for a better experience.

The last point is that they show you more of what you engage with. So if you want to see more friends and family, actively seek them out and engage and they'll start being more prominent.

They're horrible for archived data. And in technical ones, they encourage people to post the same shit questions over and over. Meta won't encourage any effort, because effort stops people from using it, so you end up with tons of low quality, disorganized, unsearchable shit.

In my area it's also what you use if you want to lose your stuff and get the shit beaten out of you.

I tried Marketplace a few times but always gave up because the search filter was so bad. There was no way to force it to include a particular search term, e.g. searching for "rtx 3060" would return tons of posts without "3060" or even "rtx" anywhere in the title/body. The distance search was also useless, since no matter how I tried to restrict the search to around my city, it would just randomly return posts from cities hundreds of kilometers away.

Perhaps the bad search was by design to show you as many posts as possible? Either way, it's worse than reddit search, which is saying something...

Maybe it's specific to numbers or tech or something, but in our area fb marketplace is THE place to sell/buy used baby/kids clothes. It's mindbogglingly high traffic. Put up used but decent looking item from sought after brand and you get literally tens of requests in minutes. If you're looking to buy then good stuff is gone like in half an hour. And were not even a big city.

It's a terrible product on many levels but is clearly successful because it uses all the usual Meta dark UX patterns to hack attention and engagement. I (horrifyingly) find myself clicking on marketplace and just browsing all the time.

More so, as a seller... it gets far more leads than the other classifieds options around here. We've been casually selling berries and misc produce off our small farm on it, and it's kinda crazy how many people reach out for random $10 containers of red currants or fresh garlic scapes, etc.

Here in Germany, it's a non factor. Most people below 25 or 30 don't even have facebook any more.

It's not Facebook, it's Instagram. And you don't need any of them to use Threads.

I was referring to Marketplace.

Marketplace is so horrible on so many fronts that it's unimaginable that it's successful, but it is. Most likely thanks to the network effect. It's a good target for disruption IMHO.

I mean, compared to what, Craigslist and eBay?

eBay is too international, Craigslist is USA only. FB marketplace is probably a local focused, but for each country. I'm just guessing here, I don't have the data to back this up.

How was messenger an acquisition? wasn't it simply taking FaceBook Chats and making it a standalone app? It seems that meta just has a very curated list of products, and most seem to be hits, and most seem to be regularly iterated upon.

> Facebook has DNA to optimize feeds.

Isn't that the exact thing that Threads would need to succeed? It's a new feeds-based app, piggybacking their existing social graph. That means you have followers/following immediately.

They even have the market opportunity as twitter stumbles.

Facebook Messnger was a service named Beluga - https://techcrunch.com/2011/03/01/facebook-beluga/

>Facebook Messnger was a service named Beluga

Facebook Messenger existed prior to the acquisition. Beluga was a mobile only product that was essentially an acquihire of the 3 member team to work on the existing Messenger mobile platform.

>Facebook was all-in on Messenger as a platform. The project is gone as well.

Facebook Messenger platform is still very much alive and well in both the games and the support / chat bot / reservations space.

They have pretty much killed messenger for me, I used it everyday to chat with most of my friends but now its bloated and filled with ads so we moved on to different platforms. Its too bad because I loved messenger but now I only open it once a week.

> games / chat bot / reservation space

Yea thats the bloat that killed it for me, I just wanted something that lets me send messages to my close friends, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think I've ever seen an ad in Messenger. Curious about where you're seeing them? Desktop? Android/iPhone?

if you scroll through your list of conversations on iOS you'll see one

I don't, I looked everywhere I could in the app and don't see a single ad

Just tried, no ads anywhere. I wonder why.

weird I get them every time. maybe it's a regional thing?

no ads here in scandinavia.

I could believe that they slapped too many ads on it (though I've never seen them?), but I struggle to believe that adding games/chatbot/reservation integration bloated messenger on your end. Isn't that all purely server-side integration that doesn't affect you if you're not using it?

Similar happened with LINE. They used to have a Lite app that only had the ability to encrypted chat + send files + make voice/video calls (& had a dark theme with no trackers). But they killed it off last year to make everyone ‘upgrade’ to the full app which is packed to the gills with games, trackers, delivery, etc. & the download is tenfold+ larger. When I didn’t upgrade they swept my account under the rug & despite a supporting Win/Mac/Chromium apps, your primary device must be Android/iOS or they won’t let you access the account (similar to Signal’s shenanigans).

I don’t think I’ve ever seen ads on messenger. Where do you see them?

> Isn't that the exact thing that Threads would need to succeed? It's a new feeds-based app, piggybacking their existing social graph. That means you have followers/following immediately.

Remember Facebook Watch (videos) - https://www.facebook.com/help/609563009232602

Reels and Stories, while directly ripped from TikTok and Snapchat have probably taken quite a bit of market share from each of those apps from people who already use Instagram as their main platform.

I suspect this has some potential to keep users who were getting FOMO on Instagram from signing up to Twitter.

In my social circle (Germany), Snapchat is completely gone, Instagram stories dominate. Some people use Instagram reels, but most use TikTok.

In my social circle, Snapchat is completely gone as well. But in my teenage daughters social circles Snapchat is the primary method of communication.

> Facebook was all-in on cryptocurrencies. The project is fully gone.

For what it's worth, their cryptocurrency project is absolutely NOT gone. It's gone in the Facebook-ownership sense (in that it was barred from continuing the project by the SEC (?)), but the code and teams are absolutely still iterating on what began at Facebook. Aptos, Sui, and 0L are all projects that have launched to fanfare within the last year.

I'm up for lambasting Facebook as much as the next guy, but I don't think government blocking their projects existence counts as failing.

I think a government blocking a project from existing is by definition a failure.

And it also shows that cryptocurrency projects will always be at the mercy of the whims of government(s).

This feature is not unique to cryptocurrency. Governments are our mechanism for deciding what is and is not allowed.

Social media has far more free speech protection. So it’s a good place to be.

Getting blocked by the government was hardly a black swan event; it was a major risk factor. Facebook absolutely has the lobbyists and political connections to have a good understanding of the risk, as well as have some influence on it.

They got it wrong in this case. It happens, but Facebook doesn't deserve a complete pass for chasing a high profile project that ended up being a dead end for them.

All of your examples are unique, distinct separate product and problem spaces, whereas Threads is pretty aligned with Instagram as-is. A lot of the plumbing for Instagram is likely reusable for threads, and a lot of the same optimization techniques might apply just as well (or with minor tweaks). I don't think this is as much "launch something new" as it is "instagram with a mask on".

So. multiple attempts at cloning Snap, HouseParty, IRL etc. into standalone products were unique. And this one is just a minor tweak on Instagram? Let's discuss this in another 6 months. I can't predict what the future of Twitter is, but Threads would have been shuttered by then.

What apps are you referencing that Meta/Facebook launched and failed to clone Snap/Houseparty/IRL? Their snap competitor is Instagram, and it's still doing very well. Instagram is _also_ their TikTok competitor, and Reels has done a solid job in that space as well.

  1. Bonfire - HouseParty clone https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/3/18528317/facebook-bonfire-shutdown-group-video-chat-houseparty-clone
  2. Poke - Snap clone https://www.vox.com/2018/2/17/17022586/facebook-snapchat-poke-clone-mark-zuckerberg-evan-spiegel-billy-gallagher
  3. Slingshot - Snap clone https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/10/snapchat-clones-facebook-copies

Note: Can't seem to find the one for IRL

Thing is, these were intentionally created as experiments with the expectation that they would be eventually shut down, with whatever learnings integrated into the mainline apps.

Since about 2017-18 there has been a unit at Facebook called NPE, New Product Experimentation, tasked with producing these.

You mean Mark Zuckerberg added his voice to Poke knowing that the app wouldn't even exist in a few years?

https://techcrunch.com/2012/12/21/mark-zuckerberg-voice-of-p...

That's from 2012. NPE was created around 2017-18 (I don't remember exactly).

NPE was created in 2017. Facebook had "Labs" in 2011-12. The same idea keeps showing up again and again every few years thanks to a hugely profitable ads business.

Snap was cloned extremely effectively within Instagram (stories). So was TikTok (reels). I'm actually surprised they aren't taking the same strategy here. Why create a new app? Why not add Threads to the existing Instagram, in the same way as Stories and Reels?

Instagram would get too bloated if they do that, but Reels + Instagram makes sense.

To add more examples of standalone apps that failed

  1. Facebook Gaming app - https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/30/meta-shutting-down-facebook-gaming-app/
  2. Facebook livestreaming app - https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/05/meta-testing-livestreaming-platform-influencers-super/
  3. Facebook Events - https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/7/13192918/facebook-events-app-ios-android

Facebook gaming is huge platform that exists within the Messaging platform. While they may have consolidated from a standalone app to a service in an existing platform, that is not a "fail" by any measure.

The same goes for Facebook Events, which is hugely popular within the Facebook platform.

Read my original comment again. I asked for successful standalone products.

I understand what you asked for, but it's a distinction without a purpose as indicated and just by that measure is misleading.

Many of these experiments are intended to start out as standalone apps that have their best features folded back into the main product and the user's transitioned over. That's by design. Framing it as a failure is not reasonable from that perspective.

This is especially true of many of the products you listed that are arguably some of the most used function of the main platform like messaging, gaming, and events. They all contribute a significant amount to the DAU for Facebook.

Facebook should make a LinkedIn copy. LI has taken the majority of the feed eyeball time.

LI must have more DAU/MAU than Twitter - most people are just scrolling the LI feed, adding random people to their network (better than adding "friends" on FB), posting/re-sharing longer text+image content.

I'm not the target audience for either, but how is your LinkedIn feed even remotely similar to Facebook? On Facebook I see what my grandmother does, on LinkedIn I see female recruiters posting pictures of themselves with some text about some position they're recruiting for, or how to leverage AI from the same people people who used to push growth-hacking. Completely useless as social media.

LI and FB def not similar. just that whatever is on the LI feed is consumed more.

Remember Branch - https://www.cnbc.com/id/47736408 - a LinkedIn killer startup based on Facebook graph?

I will do the counter-argument: this app is from Instagram, so it might have an higher success rate. To have worked in big corporate, new products are often entirely managed by a division, and only a reporting is done to the central entity.

Also worth nothing Instagram has been pretty good at eating other apps’s lunch, specifically Snapchat and later TikTok. Obviously Snapchat and TikTok are still things and are quite popular but the instagram versions of those features are quite good and the network effect is important.

Instagram is good at improving their app experience by incorporating features. However, it is not good at launching standalone apps either. Consider

  1. Boomerang - https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/instagram-launches-a-standalone-app-boomerang-that-turns-photos-into-a-1-second-video-loop/
  2. Shopping app that was never launched? - https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17819766/instagram-shopping-app-e-commerce
  3. Layout - photo collage app https://www.stuff.tv/news/instagram-launches-layout-standalone-app-your-photo-collages/

That is true, I’m a bit baffled they didn’t integrate this in some capacity into instagram itself. With that said I think this has a higher likelihood of success than instagram apps made for instagram users since this is an Instagram app using Instagram to launch a twitter replacement.

> I’m a bit baffled they didn’t integrate this in some capacity into instagram itself.

Boomerang and Layout functionality is built in to Stories, now. Shopping is also integrated.

Fair point although I think “Hi there’s a new Instagram tab that is twitter” would be a more effective way to gain users than “go download a different app that you then have to log into using Instagram”

> However, it is not good at launching standalone apps either.

That's ok, and in many ways preferable and transparently communicated in many cases. They spin off an independent application, build an audience, figure out what features best convert and migrate those to the primary platform and transition the userbase over to it. Rinse and repeat.

It allows them to try, learn and refine in a sandboxed environment and bring the best over.

They often talk of this process in terms of their "experiments"

Instagram is good at improving their app experience by incorporating features. However, it is not good at launching standalone apps either.

Consider

  1. Boomerang - https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/instagram-launches-a-standalone-app-boomerang-that-turns-photos-into-a-1-second-video-loop/
  2. Shopping app that was never launched? - https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17819766/instagram-shopping-app-e-commerce
  3. Layout - photo collage app https://www.stuff.tv/news/instagram-launches-layout-standalone-app-your-photo-collages/

Also IGTV standalone app

Also Threads (yes, Instagram killed Threads once already: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/17/22787783/instagram-threa...).

> Someone pointed out in comments that Feed & Like as a concept was also based out of an acquisition called FriendFeed

Nonsense. Facebook added the news feed in 2006. FriendFeed was founded in 2007. Facebook acqui-hired them for employees, in particular to hire Bret Taylor as CTO, nothing else.

React & LLAMA are their best products, ironically only for developers, not the general population.

IMHO, Angular was superior to React.

However, Google being Google, they shot themselves in the foot with Angular 2.

You forgot Friendfeed which I believe was the engine behind Facebook feed when it shifted to auto-pull.

Thanks. TIL. Updated my comment.

Threads isn't even a new app from them. It was discontinued just a few years ago. This is a relaunch with a more Twitter like experience.

It is a new app, it's just reusing a previous brand name, it has nothing to do with the previous app.

Come on, the previous Threads was also Instagram’s standalone messaging service.

This isn't a messaging service and there's no shared codebase

My gut tells me you’re quite wrong about this one. I’m quite the cynic, but I think this is a lovely confluence indeed. It feels like when you can tell that the batter is about the hit the ball out of the park just a second before the bat has even made contact with the ball.

I gave several examples of standalone apps from Facebook. I can count at least 10. And none of them exist today.

What was Messenger before acquisition?

https://techcrunch.com/2011/03/01/facebook-beluga/

In fairness, the same can be said about Google.

Google Maps - acquisition Ads - acquisition Youtube - acquisition Android - acquisition

I don't need to list all the failed products (included the 285 different kind of messengers), do I?

Here are a few massively successful standalone projects built inside Google

  1. Google Cloud - 50+ services with varying degress of success
  2. Gmail
  3. Google Apps for work
  4. Google Chrome

I'm not sure what you mean that Messenger as a platform is gone. I still use their messaging app all the time, is that not the same thing?

Various bots, for example, Ordering Uber, sharing Spotify playlists, and other such obscure use-cases that only Facebook employees would engage in.

https://about.fb.com/news/2016/04/messenger-platform-at-f8/

Workplace https://www.workplace.com/

And how successful has Workplace been compared to Microsoft Teams or Slack?

Moving the goalposts?

anecdote: a straight lawyer friend of mine found his MD partner on FB dating, THEY certainly can‘t make fun of FB dating

Instagram obliterated Snapchat with Stories.

Read my comment again, I am asking for a single standalone product that's fully incubated inside Facebook and that's successful.

You won't find one because you've given an arbitrary limitation that is contrary to how Meta do business. Threads is not even standalone because it uses the Instagram graph.

Every other app that I mentioned and is dead used either Facebook or Instagram graph. None survived.

How is Dating dead? They launched a new feature 3 months ago

Do you know anyone in America who genuinely uses FB Dating and met people from it?

I’ve never used it in the US, mainly because not many people in the US use FB so the user base for that feature would be dead. Abroad it’s pretty popular.

America doesn't even account for the majority of Facebook's traffic

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