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> Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC

Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge).

> while the bridge has certainly had problems over the years (e.g. occasional delays & a recent spate of dropped messages),

As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership.

[1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112

[2]: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases...

> it's also improved loads too

The very room used to discuss the Matrix bridge (#irc:matrix.org) has been dropping all IRC messages for at least three days, and the one to talk to Libera's staff (#libera-matrix:libera.chat) was only fixed today [EDIT: actually it's still dropping some people's messages]. The room used to discuss the Matrix spec (#spec:matrix.org) has been dropping them for over a year.

After two years of message drops, there is no way for users to know their messages are being dropped without using developer tools, causing miscommunication issues to many Free Software projects.

There have been, as far as I know, no work on addressing UX issues on the IRC side (primarily multiline messages, edits, and replies) in the last couple of years; except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it.

> As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership.

> [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112

What abuse? That link says "Matrix does not provide the moderation tools we need to keep our community safe", but doesn't say how their safety(?) was compromised.

I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools".

https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-moz...

> What abuse?

Not sure, but here is what I can find in public logs:

https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-12#31512149

https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-13#31516958

https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31520624

https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31522316

> I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools".

Mozilla had neglected their IRC network for years, so they were lacking the expertise. And they didn't try to reach out to other networks like Freenode (Libera Chat's predecessor) or OFTC to try to ask them for advice.

> Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge).

That won't help 80% of the users that are not techy people. So yes imho while not intended as one, it will backfire as a full ban of matrix.

> except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it.

Honestly, as a Matrix user, I hope these don't land any time soon as they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users. (And yes, I am going as far as saying that I want a native feeling chat on matrix side. Not an IRC emulation. If I wanted an IRC emulation, I would use an IRC client. That's EXACTLY the one thing I DO NOT want as a matrix user.)

> they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users

There is an impedance mismatch between IRC and Matrix, and these try to find a middle-ground, by helping non-technical Matrix users follow social norms in a room they joined. As your own client dev, you are free not to implement these specs in your client to ignore these norms.

Good riddance. The random message drops problem has been going on for well over a month now, with a really long issue on GitHub. Almost zero messages from developers, as far as I can tell they neither have a clue what the problem is, nor are they working on a solution. This is absolutely pathetic. If anything this just cemented my aversion towards the whole matrix ecosystem.

As a long-time user, they have a shockingly glacial development pace. If I remember correctly, this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!) That's not to mention the issues others are having with it, such as the IRC logs in another part of this thread. I've also heard a lot of Synapse horror stories.

> this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!)

...is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell

No! It's always fascinated me how long Matrix has been in development. I got 2014 from their Wikipedia page[0].

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)

I totally agree with everything you said (as a normal user of Matrix and this bridge) but shouldn't you clarify that you work for Element? You are a user but also more than.

have clarified. i was posting from a user point of view, though (given i love lurking and hanging out in loads of IRC channels via the bridge today, and i'm gutted to lose that. it feels like the ultimate splintering of communities.)

Until you were called out in comments you were fine to be "just a user". I'm really disappointed in that.

hint: the giveaway is in my user profile, as well as most comments i post. sorry for any confusion or disappointment…

For the sake of completeness, https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ is our response from the Matrix side.

Does this mean that DMs will stop working, too?

I'm one of those who is affected by the decision, and I also hope the chan mode ends up being the chosen solution and implemented before times runs out.

There's no need for hyperbole though. Libera overall only has a few tens of thousands of users, there's no way the vast majority are accessing it via Matrix like you say/imply. I'd wager we're less than 1000 impacted on libera.

Are there really that few of us? I feel Arathorn should have the numbers if anyone.

I'm not being hyperbolic, i'm looking at the grafana stats on the matrix<->libera bridge, and the total connected users from Matrix fluctuates between around 10,000 and 12,000 users (bearing in mind that connections from Matrix get kicked if the user from Matrix hasn't been seen for >30 days). https://netsplit.de/networks/statistics.php?net=Libera.Chat implies there's around 42K users connected to libera overall, so we're talking about 23% of the total network participants here.

Thank you I stand corrected, 12k is 10x what I expected. Though I feel like "tens of thousands" should means 20k or more, so hyperbole is still at play..

Knowing that at least 1/4 of Libera users are from a fairly unstable bridge is really depressing. IRC truly is dying...

Before I checked the figure, I thought it was around 22,000 (from memory, the I:line is set up for 25,000 connections). However, as time has gone one we've been more aggressive about culling idle connections on the Matrix side (plus there seems to be less activity to bridge to on the IRC side), hence it being around 11K these days.

In terms of the bridge stability: there have obviously been stability problems over the last few months, but overall it's certainly been better than nothing. Agreed that the situation overall is really depressing.