Are one million people in the UK using anabolic steroids? (2022)
fullfact.org
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There is a lot of talk about negative effects that are widely known. At a bodybuilder or high medicinal level, you can work out multiple times per day at max effort without getting tired and only hungry or sweaty. Your brain will work at the highest efficiency but you may have issues applying it. You may not even need to sleep depending when you take it and for how long.
Using it will either scare you to stop or you can take them until your kidneys fail and you’re in a wheelchair like Ronnie Coleman. If you live long enough maybe you end up with testicular cancer or it supercharges your brain and you end up curing cancer.
Nobody on anabolic steroids can work out at max effort without getting tired, or being able to go without sleep, you're probably thinking of meth, not AAS.
And what do kidneys have to do with processing steroids?
And why bring up Ronnie Coleman as an example when his issue was that, 2 days after spinal surgery, against all recommendations, he decided to squat 800 pounds?
And steroids increase DHT, which can be a risk factor in PROSTATE cancer, not testicular cancer.
Kidneys end up failing soon with all the associated supplements and drugs.
I merely wanted to comment about some side effects and give easy to understand examples because I did not see anyone mention the benefits yet. Thanks for going into more detail than I cared to. I think posting only benefits would be foolish.
I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T"
It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it.
The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude.
In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
No one in a gym is made insecure by someone who is clinically obese, irrespective of how much they can lift. It's even more ridiculous when you realize how many of these people are obese, and on steroids.
In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part.
My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless.
I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male.
This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep.
Totally not the same thing.
"whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels". Not sure why you are so persistent on alluding to gender. These discussions have nothing to do with gender dsyphoria.
Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors.
- the reference range has been adapted times and times again
- testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times
- for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy"
Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
in this case, reference ranges are adapted so people don't qualify for therapy. The side effects of the low levels don't change just because you change the reference range
>Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
My exhaustive reasearch has shown the opposite. Interestinglingly, even older guys now have higher testosterone levels than younger guys. So you can even see it in the living specimen.
>Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
1. doctors say that, en masse.
2. There is some evidence that the lower testosterone levels are caused by injuries and dysfunctions. At least some studies point to that. An analogy: Age doesn't cause bad teeth. Caries and injuries cause bad teeth. If these don't happen, teeth stay healthy. Saying it's normal that your teeth fall out is lazy.
>The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
You are partially right. Testosterone is regulated through estrogene. Having high estrogene limits your testosterone production. Obesity and less sport is sufficient.
But a lot of non-obese and healthy people who work out also have low testosterone levels
Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go.
I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test.
At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route.
For what it's worth I am in [redacted] not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor).
Look also into thyroid etc
Thankfully here I get all my results directly in accessible formats (so like a normal video for my MRI results) so I can easily research myself or go for a second opinion without the hassle of having to get my results like back in the UK.
Having said that the Endocrinologist I saw was highly recommended by a close Doctor friend so I have confidence in them.
After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>'). Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0]
The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that.
I started TRT back in July of 2022.
After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect).
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ [0] https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(...
Your initial experience is weirdly similar to mine. My doctor has given me a few different antidepressants over the past 2 and a bit years (Escitalopram, Amitriptyline, Sertraline to name three) but they just made me worse in that I put on weight (which now will not fucking leave!), awful sleep, my penis became useless, and I was just angry 95% of the time. I was a truly awful person to be around and I felt so sorry for my wife and son having to put up with me. So I told him they're not working and we need to look at other ways of treating this depression and anxiety.
He sent me for a testosterone check I think as a bit of a way to just shut me up as I kept asking him what else can we do. He was surprised when it came back at 257ng/dL but as it was above the 249 bottom end he was like "it's a bit low but in the normal range". Thankfully I have a friend that is a doctor and they put me in touch with an Endocrinologist who agreed under 300 at least deserves some further blood work and check I don't have a pituitary gland issue which can cause a lot of my symptoms.
My symptoms are:
* extreme fatigue (to the point of falling asleep in my office chair)
* easily exhausted when exercising
* much longer recovery times from exercising, when I used to have maybe a day or two of muscle aches from pushing myself a bit more to build muscle it would now take me 3 to 4 weeks to recover.
* My concentration is garbage
* Cannot lose the weight around my abdomen. I managed to lose around 13KG back in 2020 yet put it back on thanks to the SSRIs mentioned above and doing the same things I did the first time just does not shift the weight
* Depression but it feels different to my previous experiences with depression not to mention it seems treatment resistant this time whereas before I found Sertraline was at least somewhat effective.
* Heart palpitations that are extremely uncomfortable
* Terrible sleep. It often takes me 2 hours to finally get to sleep and my sleep quality as measured by my FitBit is awful compared to a few years ago (first time the sleep tracking came in helpful)
* Very irritable and easily frustrated
I don't know how that compares to your list of symptoms but they have absolutely wrecked me the past few years. I am just hoping to god there is something of value found in my blood results so I can start working on improving things.
As I said I don't know if I will jump on TRT as it does worry me a little bit. There is no such thing as side effect free HRT after all but my wife has said I should keep an open mind and listen to my Endocrinologist who has said she would recommend it if my blood work comes back with levels in line with ~250ng/dL. I will see what the results are though, if I'm under 250 I think I will have to seriously considering just trying it for a few months. If I am around 300 I think I would rather try some natural ways and retest in 2-3 months and see if it has helped at all. If not then I will give TRT a try.
Brother, it sounds like your life is made of horrendous side effects. I am just a random internet commenter, not a doctor, but I am a fellow man. And if there were ever a time to ignore your fear and roll the dice, it's now.
I am naturally a bit of a worrier about "big" medication regimes like TRT and I over research and over think everything which is obviously not a great thing when it comes to medicine as everything has side effects.
I am slowly starting to adjust my mindset with regards to trying TRT but I need to see what my results are to help me make a decision.
I was like you before I started TRT, super hesitant, and worried I would just be poisoning myself. A good friend of mine kept pushing me to try, and I can't say I have any regrets.
For me personally, I wouldn't want to come off TRT, I feel so much better consistently. IMHO, there are no downsides, at least none yet that I've experienced.
Not trying to second guess your health situation, but I don't see anything about exercise on here. You don't have to go crazy with it (unless you want to), but istm everyone should do some exercise. Walking at leisurely pace helps but I don't really count that as exercise - by that I mean something that gets your heart pumping or significantly tires you out, eg a long walk at a really fast pace or with a loaded rucksack. Obviously this will be different for people who struggle with obesity or have joint issues, but you don't mention any physical handicaps so I'm assuming you have full mobility.
Absolutely, like shutting off your body's natural T production (!)
EDIT: I just remembered this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/24/why-ther...
> But more surprising was the amount of hordenine and ostarine – described by the programme-makers as often being found in gym supplements, which made up more than half of the pharmaceuticals found.
Ostarine is a SARM, and supposedly there was more of that than cocaine or MDMA residue in a London sewer "fatberg."
Unfortunately it looks like a few tik-tok kids are going to ruin it for everyone. Same as most good things in life I guess.
Using TRT for its prescribed effect (baseline "normal" range) likely won't have any impact on this but taking it to go above normal levels certainly could.
What an unhinged comment
Edit: government data says I am wrong. 25-29, apparently. But that's based on self-reporting so I do wonder.
As it stands, if you've just started bodybuilding and want to get growth hormones, unless you're rich and well-connected enough, a pro or ex-Pro athlete or an A/B-list actor, your best bet is testosterone.
Most PCPs won't prescribe it unless your levels are seriously low, and most endos won't do it either unless you go to one of those weird T clinics like this one: https://testosteroneclinicpro.com/testosterone-treatment-for...
This means going to the black/gray-markets or to forums to:
1. get your supply, which is almost always imported from Eastern Europe or Asia and has variable quality control, and
2. your programming, which is highly dependent on your body (and everyone's body is different!)
Bad programming is what kills/seriously injures people!
Then again, the folks that would rather make this and other hard drugs illegal and horrifically addicting and fatal would probably consider that a feature, not a bug.
But it's also genetic (I know taboo right). That some people can gain much easily and/or maintain muscle easily.
Or maybe you're doing drugs (alcohol), not sleeping right, not enough protein,etc.
Or a combination of these all.
For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
I'm sure some percentage are augmenting, but it is surprising how common it to see people on social media declaring that people with the slightest bit of definition or muscles as steroid users.
[1] Should we call it the "second place" in the era of WFH?
Not at all in my case. In my youth gyms were places for hooligans, _heavy_ steroids abusers, low end criminals, and thus places to avoid. Then spent some years in Germany where gym contracts are famously predatory and abusive, again a place to avoid. Only around 2 years ago had found a civilized place finally. Starting to visit regularly meant to actually overcome some traumas.
That's like not brushing your teeth for a month, it's not the done thing. The Americans I know don't even take a month off work, lol.
Sit on the couch, smoke, eat chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
I did do an unholy amount of exercise from 12-20 (rowing), which may have put a few epigenetic switches in useful locations, as before that I was a spherical child, but honestly, I have no idea how I maintain cardio and strength with frankly small bursts of infrequent activity.
(I would be really surprised if this figure is higher than the USA, considering the differences in regulation)
edit: perhaps that isn't strictly TRT though - ianad
As our organs, tissues and glands age, they decrease their output including our testes.
This paper goes a bit into detail:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
Can't copy and paste from it. Section 6.5. I may have misinterpreted it though to be honest, and I don't have time to get back into it in depth.
There seems to be a massive grey market for peptide SARMs at least in the US
Like RFK you will regularly (every day) see men in their 60s that have the muscle mass and definition of someone in their 20s. It’s still a lot of hard work, and I’m not calling it cheating, but it’s extremely obvious.
There’s a lot of talk of female beauty standards but looking at The Rock, Hugh Jackman, and countless others all the diet and training in the world cannot maintain that physique into their fifties. It’s ridiculous they do interviews and give the classic “broccoli and chicken” line. Personally I’m also skeptical younger actors are able to achieve physiques that are top tier for professional athletes naturally - and often do it in months between roles.
Even when they give details of their training (two a days for hours) that’s just not possible at that age without the tremendous improvements in recovery that performance enhancing drugs provide.
Doubly sleazy for those that are selling something claiming it's how they achieved their results. Not unlike the Kardashians selling some juice, make up, or whatever and attributing their appearance to it. The real answer is lighting, all kinds of editing/tuning apps, surgery, extreme and regular dermatological procedures, veneers, etc. It's their job and they employ every single trick in the book possible and then some to achieve these results.
It's incredible how far the standards have moved. I was re-watching Terminator 2 the other day. Looking at Arnold Schwarzenegger in that role his physique is more-or-less the standard for "action heroes" today and needless to say he's essentially a freak of nature (and has openly discussed his steroid use). There have been advancements in sport and exercise training but not nearly enough to make up that difference.
Christian Bale went from a "should be hospitalized" gaunt physique in The Machinist to Batman in a year - that's just not possible without chemical intervention.
Unfortunately it's also risky for them to tell the truth ("I achieved this with some sketchy prescriptions of otherwise-illegal drugs")
Here's The Rock[1] at 48 years old. You can search for in-role Ryan Reynolds, Chris Hemsworth, Henry Cavill, etc, etc - Joe is tiny by comparison and all of these actors seem to get bigger and bigger as they age (look at any of them from roles 10 years ago) - which is the exact opposite of what happens to men as they age.
Here's an example[2] of what they look like (in "Hollywood" shape, but normal for age) when not tuned-up to the max on whatever they do/take for these roles.
[0] - https://www.essentiallysports.com/ufc-mma-news-unlike-the-li...
[1] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9166911/Dwayne...
[2] - https://www.popsugar.com/celebrity/photo-gallery/43926966/im...
On the getting bigger thing, muscle is cumulative as long as you keep exercising it. I have always assumed The Rock was on gear while wrestling (although he had a great frame to begin with) but I don't find it odd that he can maintain that at 48.
I do think it's fair to assume that if Hemsworth openly its likely to be possible more young kids will take it. But it also depends on how he talks about it.
...or you just find an open minded andrologist who gives you TRT.
Testosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo.
It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones
A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.
> What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.
There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.
- after I started lifting, I started getting attention and conversations I did not get before
- young men are not complete idiots, and can observe that this is true
I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.
> The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
Visit your local bookstore (if there still is one!) and tell me what the men on the covers of those romance novels look like.
I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
> Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner
The word "necessary" is one you uttered.
> while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.
What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports.
> I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that.
> and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.
> the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder
This is the kind of thing people said about being gay, bi or lesbian back in the day, and only the most hateful and bigoted say that now. In ten years time you'll either look back at comments like this and cringe with embarrassment, or you'll be one of those miserable, hate-filled bigots. I hope for your sake it's the former.
It's all this pesky society that won't take your word for anything.
EDIT: forgot the link to the study in question https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/
(By the time it was closed down the queues at the Tavistock were on the order of years, so lots of UK trans people have had to go private at some point)
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: we already asked you once to stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait, and your account has unfortunately continued to do this. We end up having to ban such accounts because this is not what this site is for and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them, we'd appreciate it.
It's in no way a controversial or baity observation.
I get that it's a new concept for you, but your assumption was misplaced.
I think there are 4 groups of people who take hormones.
1. Those who take them for competitive advantage in sports
2. Those who take them because a doctor has told them that their body is producing less than it should be
3. Those who take them because they want the physical attributes that goes along with it because of how they identify
4. Biohackers
All of those reasons are valid
Re prior flamebait comments, I was thinking of (at least) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36546191 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541462.
Update: Whoops. Apparently, the submitter neglected to mention "anabolic" in the title. That's a pretty glaring omission.
> The report refers specifically to the use of anabolic steroids, which can be used to increase muscle mass, and not the use of corticosteroids, which are used to treat a wide range of medical conditions.