Tesla on track to smash targets after producing almost a million EVs in 6 months
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Sustaining that speed is something they have issues with.
Whatever floats your boat, but I find the interior of tesla's incredible bland and boring. Stale "futuristic" BS that's devoid of any personality.
"SSD and GPU" is a freaking bizarre thing to tout. You mean it has an entertainment system with a full computer with enough grunt to light gaming on. Yippy.
This feature, while I am sure loved by most people and is evident from the sales, is not something that I like and hence would never own a Tesla. I simply don't like the idea of my car and car's app beaming my data to HQ all the time.
Teslas do phone home a lot for other stuff, but for better or worse, so do most other modern-day cars. And the Tesla UI is pretty zealous about asking for your permission for all the things.
[0] https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy#information-we-may-colle...
How many other cars send your private videos to HQ to be shared among employees on internal meme pages?
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
You can optionally buy a key fob if you want something more traditional, but it's still electronic and wireless.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-E004FAB...
There's one inside the one for my Lexus (and you have to pop the cover off the door handle), and on Mercedes the start/stop button is removable to reveal a slot where the fob actually clicks in.
As for "over an exotic car", I assume the other option would be something like a Lexus, not something super exotic.
Unless you count on-screen [FSD] visualization.
Most chargers take 3s when you plug it in at home. Which is nicer than gas.
Also the point was around gaming, if you are gaming in the car in your garage instead of on a proper TV, you are spending your money weirdly.
You can say the exact same thing about driving a traditional ICE vehicle 5+hours due to traffic. EV is a bit less convenient on road trips - yes; but it's much more convenient every other day of the year if you have a home charger.
These cars have ranges in the hundreds of miles, how far are your appointments? If I have an appointment that far away, my whole day's already shot.
I can buy houses for that money here where I live in Italy. So it’s still an insanely expensive car.
[edit: better vid coz the other is all talk] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1r4ZotaY6U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP7HWwxPbU
"Tesla Model S Shatters Nurburgring Record, Beats Porsche Taycan Turbo S"
The gist is that he originally thought his concerns about the plaid couldn't be addressed easily, but it turns out that they were all addressed through Tesla's (off-the-shelf) track package. Part of what surprised him is that his suspension concerns were alleviated solely through a software update.
I don't mean to move the goalposts, just pointing out it mostly hits that time by having an insane power to weight ratio and adequate brakes. or in other words, going really fast in a straight line.
Where the ICE is still cruising along, and the Tesla is in thermal shutdown...
Also, the Model S may be top 50...but the 50 ahead of it is basically every supercar made in the last 20 years and all of them have less HP to go faster.
That's a bit misleading considering there are very few 4d cars on that list. 'not very hard' but ~almost no one else is doing it. For consideration; on a 7+ minute lap it's within .1s of an Enzo Ferarri.(!!!!!). That's Impressive, even if the Enzo is a few years on now.
Even on the autostrada I would say it's typical t go 130km/h (80 mph) so I'm not sure of the context where 200mph is required.
Also, and every racing series shows that, one fast lap doesn't guarantee good results in a race.
But I get the thrill of launching a car at insane speed. I just don’t personally see the point and would never spend those money for a car.
I’d much rather buy a few hectares of forest with those money.
To get supercar performance in a normal car is pretty nice and unheard of until Tesla came along. Yes it is still expensive, but less so than other cars with worse performance. You had to get the 911 or similar with all the addons for like 300k to get worse performance and not even close to the same comfort levels.
We can talk about top speed but the acceleration is good for safety. Better to overtake a truck in 3 rather than 10 seconds.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not necessarily talking about Plaid levels of acceleration. But just going from a Suburu Crosstrek (One of my cars) to a Tesla in "chill" mode (which I usually keep my Tesla in for tire longevity and not making my wife car sick) feels so much safer.
acceleration makes you a badass race car driver. those slowpokes are just in the way, but that doesn’t have to slow you down.
vroom vroom.
Because of idiot owners.
For all of human history, we have chased speed. Finding the fastest at running, finding the quickest horse, designing the fastest trains, buying the fastest cars.
We do it because it's a lot of fun.
Even funnier when you consider it has the panel gaps and material quality of an AliExpress gaming console, but it doesn't matter because "the interior looks like a space ship".
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/looks-like-porsche-taycans-have...
... where >70% of brand new Teslas require at least one service center visit in the first 30 days to correct a factory defect...
RAV 4, Camry, CR-V all might argue about that, given that each of them outsold Tesla models.
Source: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-car...
Your citation is six months old.
> Last year, the Model Y was the best-selling vehicle in Europe and California, the fourth best-selling in China despite China’s different tastes and model availability compared to the rest of the world, and was on the US top ten list but significantly behind several trucks and SUVs. These performances made it the third-best selling car worldwide.
> But now, it looks like Tesla’s #1 sales prediction has come true. The Model Y has dethroned the Toyota Corolla as the world’s best-selling car in Q1 and looks like it may well maintain this position for the full year.
They announced and had an ad campaign that they were the best selling car in Australia, which surprised Toyota. And Australia's consumer watchdog, and it was discovered that they were not even close, and had been counting pre-orders and other such things, factory used sales as new, etc., and the DOL registration data proved it wrong.
That being said, yes, the MY sells very well. But even in Electrek's article, you can see the weasel words...
"significantly behind several trucks and SUVs", and then "but now, it's #1 sales prediction comes true", and then the goalposts silently shift, "best selling car" (because it is still being outsold by some of those trucks and SUVs).
seat 5, has lots of storage in the trunk + frunk, an 18" screen, self driving is great, the phone placement is the most optimal I've ever seen in a car, no key needed (just walk up to the car and it knows you are you because of your phone, or use a credit card style key), and the audio system is outstanding. Oh, and the white interior looks like a space ship, makes no noise, has long range, has a screen in the front to watch Netflix and YouTube.
I would sincerely hope when your paying that much you get a good car.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/2023-tesla-model-3-cheap-toyota...
Especially things like going 200 mph.
EVs aren't inherently expensive, the issue is that the industry tends to advertise and equip EVs as a status symbol and price them as a luxury, rather than focus on simple/cheap designs that would have more impact on emissions.
That's not only EVs, the way the industry pushes SUVs is also painful. But it's really annoying to see what could be a great improvement wasted with regards to the challenges we're facing.
> EVs aren't inherently expensive, the issue is that the industry tends to advertise and equip EVs as a status symbol and price them as a luxury, rather than focus on simple/cheap designs that would have more impact on emissions.
True, but the main issue here (according to manufacturers, at least in Europe), is supply chain issues making smaller cars unprofitable, thus forcing them to focus on bigger more luxurious models with bigger margins.
Stimulation of interesting discussion and anecdotes is the lifeblood of HN? I understand this one doesn't interest you, but I bet some others do and don't interest me.
The long range is nice though for sure. Can't wait for that to trickle down to everyday EVs for us plebs.
Conspicuous consumption [1] describes the consumer practice of buying and using goods of a higher quality, price, or in greater quantity than practical.
Not a Musk fan but his product and business skills are undeniable. Let's just hope he doesn't go too eccentric.
That so, Tesla did really good. Added benefit: Software is nothing traditional automotove excels, while build quality is nothing Tesla excels in. So, the now managed to make Teslas weakness irrelevant while highliting everyones elses weakness.
Why is this even a selling point? There are no roads for this. I've never needed to personally go this fast. In actual emergencies, this would put both me and the person with the emergency at risk.
And honestly, the companies can claim that all they want. Pretty much no one is going to test it themselves.
But I kinda agree, as a german I feel like we should have a universal tempo limit of 130kmh.
The only reason I can see to stay unlimited would be as a policy measure for quicker EV transition, e.g. by limiting ICE cars to 120kmh and keeping unlimited for EVs.
Tax breaks, reductions on tolls, and the ability to drive in bus lanes has helped. Infrastructure has most definitely helped, too.
> And honestly, the companies can claim that all they want. Pretty much no one is going to test it themselves.
uhh, people are definitely going to verify a claimed top speed of 200 mph lol. give the car reviewers a few months to get their hands on one.
That they won't realistically use, even in an emergency. Most roads aren't built for this speed nor are the buyers trained in it. They aren't being sold for racing. Few are going to go to a proper place to test it.
Car reviewers, sure - on a closed road that has a proper surface or on a track. Most owners aren't going to do this.
But the Tesla Plaid ain't pretending to go after exotic supercars. It's pretending to be a luxury car.
A Porsche Panamera however starts at $97 K and you already get a very nice one for the $135 K the Plaid costs. And it's actually a luxury car: it's in another league of quietness (wind noise dominates on the highway and the Panamera is simply much better sound insulated), audio (try a Burmester + double-glazzed windows in a Panamera: it's 1000 Watts and 18 speakers of bliss), way more luxurious, way more comfortable, handles better, gives a much better feedback through the steering wheel, has higher quality material all over the interior, etc.
That's my issue with the Model S: it's a very expensive car and you've got not just a bit but way more luxurious cars in that price range.
Now there's the issue of TCO, image (some don't want to be seen in a Porsche but have no issue driving a $135 K Plaid for example), gasoline vs EV, etc.
All I'm saying is $135 K ain't cheap and for that amount you have actual luxury cars that do drive superbly available.
> I'll never go back
I'll never go back either ; )
FYI I own an S, which I picked up for 50k used (2016 model in 2019) and I love it to bits, but can't see myself getting another due to how expensive they are now. Hopefully my battery lasts!
Also, if you had fit issues (honestly more rare the past few years) you should have reported this at delivery, just like any other car. The finish, well, that’s personal preference.
Ultimately I think you just don’t like Elon, and that’s ok - but Tesla is not Elon
Well, hopefully they actually remember to install all of them at the factory...
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/another-tesla-is-delivere...
https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/the-saga-of-a-tesla-mode...
> Also, if you had fit issues (honestly more rare the past few years) you should have reported this at delivery
Many do. Tesla leads the market in that over 70% of new deliveries require at least one service center visit in the first 30 days of ownership to correct a factory/delivery defect.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-refreshed-tesla-model...
He’s revealed his hand, in that he’s not a Blue Tribe member like most other tech CEOs.
So now, every member of the Blue Tribe hate him. They will attack him just as they attack anyone prominent from outside their own tribe.
Tribalism sucks. I wish people could rise above it.
What I do think people don’t give credit Musk enough for is that he’s willing to put money into some completely bonkers ideas and make them work. EV’s and affordable space travel were laughable ideas until Tesla and SpaceX. Without Elon we would not have the nuspace industry as it exists today
China has a problem with overproduction in some areas, EVs in particular. That's why they have fields of rotting EVs that they can't sell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8
Notice how that Forbes article confuses sales with shipments. They aren't the same thing.
https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.htm...
Meanwhile, the number in all of Africa combined was 790,100.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/473598/passenger-car-sal...
I'm sure they'll ship some off to Africa if they can't find any other options, but as you say they're competing against used clunkers from Europe, so the margins will be terrible.
The major advantage of liquid fuel compared to electricity is that it's easier to transport and store, and harder to steal, which is why I don't think EVs will see significant take up in the third world.
"China has a much larger problem with unsellable ICE vehicles which don't meet the new emission standards they're about to introduce."
[1]: https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehic...
In contrast, most plug in hybrids in the US assume you’ll regularly turn the engine on in normal operation.
Tesla isn't at much risk from BYD. BYD will eat the low end of the market around the world though.
Yeah, it's a very bad analogy, nobody on budget buys a OnePlus 11. A One Plus 11 is 1- just slightly cheaper than an iPhone 14 and 2- is technically on par https://www.makeuseof.com/oneplus-11-vs-iphone-14-plus/ - almost a counter example ironically
If you take a Tesla in for repair, they'll most of the time do a goodwill repair which doesn't come out of the warranty pool, and therefore doesn't affect profit per car.
They work out to the same number in the end, but per car profitability looks better for Tesla when trying to attract suck... outside investment.
If Tesla presented its numbers the same way that Toyota and Ford did, they would both have higher profits-per-car than Tesla despite selling many cheaper cars, due to the huge markups on their real moneymakers: trucks sold to U.S. customers (Ford's profit on an F350, their most expensive vehicle, can exceed the retail price of a Model 3.). The profits on trucks are why Musk is trying to get into the truck game with the Cybertruck.
No they would not, and this is a ridiculous thing to say if you had taken even 5 minutes to look at the earning reports of these companies.
Even when accounting for the small differences between car manufacturers on how they make their per-car-profit calculation, they still report their total earnings the same way.
2022 Tesla made $13B selling 1,3 million cars. 2022 Toyota made $18B selling 10,5 million cars. 2022 Ford lost $2B selling 4.2 million cars. 2021 Ford made $17.9B selling 3.9 million cars. (added Ford's 2021 result for a better comparative)
Every car manufacturer does some slight variation on how they get their margins per car figure, but it does not account for major difference you think they do.
but yeah that's where the money is.
What definition of 'matters' are you using?
They're producing more cars, still making a profit.
I work for a company that isn't the absolute most profitable per unit. My investments are full of companies that aren't absolutely the most profitable per unit.
Like buildings in Ghost Cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in...
Feels like at this point whoever takes the Chinese market gets the crown, and I suppose India will be next in this game.
How are you defining 'powered by coal', because China's energy mix isn't 100% coal either.
I'm not saying it's bad to move to electric vehicles just that it's not the wonderful win for global warming in China (or really anywhere else) right now and for the foreseeable future.
Electricity transfer, battery charging, and electric motors are all over 90% efficient, with overall "well to wheel" efficiency around 80%.
Why?
India is pretty crowded.
This can be achieved by systematically ban cars from cities. By investing far more into trains then into highways. By having good public transit even to remote places. And by encouraging small vehicles when necessary.
There is plenty of room in the market for BYD and Tesla. For the next decade at least we won’t reach the saturation point for EVs. Remember it I will end up eating pretty much the entire ICE market barring some incredibly small niche segments.
We are looking at 2035 or 2040 before EV players really start going head to head for the same slice of the pie instead of just growing the pie.
I ended up going with a Mazda CX-5. Out the door price was around 36,000 USD and it was available that day.
EV companies need to make cars that are affordable first. So far they only seem to target the luxury car market.
My prices are all new, 2023 models.
I clicked on “explore inventory” at their website, put in the Los Ángeles zip code of 90001 and search radius of 200 miles. Found this one for $39,670 before tax credit: https://www.tesla.com/m3/order/5YJ3230_87dfdbbc95d70f719a4d1... .
So, after the tax credit that would be $32,170 for a new Model 3 with no wait time (it is in inventory).
It’s amazing because Tesla built an EV that is wildly in demand roughly around the price of the average new car accounting for subsides. The Model Y was the best selling car globally last quarter, beating out Toyota.
https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/tesla-model-y-is-now-the-worl...
American should be proud and supportive for any local company actually dedicated to quit fossil fuels or anything about not relying on another country.
Relatively simple == simpler, but I would point out it's brittle because just-in-time hyperoptimisations sucked it dry of spare capacity. Stocks of EMS microchips held up production.
Most of a car outside of ICE/EV differences are the same inputs, same supply chain. Tesla's stamped bodyparts require metal billets the same way normal auto car body panel stampers do.
Inside of ICE/EV differences Tesla runs flow processes to make batteries close to site. The input supply chain for batteries is pretty simple. I am not sure I would say the supply chain behind a fuel injection system is as simple, it has mechanical and electromechanical and electronic parts in profusion. Lots of points of brittleness.
It is an obvious statement that where they’re the same they have the same supply chain.
> The input supply chain for batteries is pretty simple
EV battery supply chains are the most complex out of all inputs for both classes of car other than microchips. There are many countries including highly geopolitically complicated ones like the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Russia that provide vital material inputs.
> it has mechanical and electromechanical and electronic parts in profusion
Fuel injectors are older and simpler tech and have nowhere near as complicated a supply chain as EV batteries.
What are you talking about?
If other companies are to dumb and incompetent to make their cars follow emissions regulation, then that's their own fault.
Tesla stock P/E ratio 261.
Toyota stock P/E ratio 10.6.
Now redo the calculation a bunch of times to account for all the other possible times you could have both opened and closed that short position, and see how many other times you would have turned a profit. Probably not in many of them.
You got lucky. Contrary to some popular belief, lucky timing is not a generally-applicable investing strategy.
I'm not saying doing so is trivial; aside from the equipment cost, many/most/all of those stations will also need electrical supply upgrades. But they at least already have the land, and a company like Tesla will have to deal with equipment cost, electrical supply upgrades, and the cost of acquiring land.
[1] https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-virtual-power-pla...
People said this all the time about Tesla a few year ago. But the stock value back then is easly justified by what they have achieved since.
So the reality is that 'Tesla fans' were not irrational, but they were simply correct. And the people who endlessly repeat the 'market can stay irrational longer then you can sty solvent line' were simply wrong.
Its also an absurd fantasy that Tesla stock is only carried by irrational Musk fan boys. When in reality is mostly large institutional investors who do the same financial analysis on Tesla as anything else they buy.
yes they make mistakes, but it has been a bloodbath out there for $TSLA shorters in the past 5 years
definitely not the smartest at the heights of marie curie nor stephem hawking
but smart and rich enough to be worth more than all of us in this thread
shorters are literally betting against the guy that spearheaded reusable rockets in space, i'm not saying all his decisions and perspectives are agreeable, but seriously what do you all think is your leverage against the guy?
Cheaper electricity is coming that is the bigger change than most people realise not electric cars. So far majority of electricity has been produced using fossil fuels a finite resource where as solar is practically an infinite resource price for harvesting it as well as storing it keeps dropping.
Not even. Musk had a company which had plans for an online bank (can you imagine?) but it wasn't working out so well. So his company merged with one that was in the process of creating PayPal (trademarked, prototype in place)...
Musk was the largest shareholder of the combined companies, so he was made CEO...
And promptly spent four months complaining that the working prototype needed to be thrown away, because it was written in Java on Solaris, and he didn't understand it, and he wanted it rewritten in Classic ASP on Windows.
Four months, because at that point, the board, lead by Peter Thiel had had enough of it and removed him as CEO.
That was the extent of Musk's tenure at PayPal.
Why are you focused on p/e ratio? It tells basically none of the story
Tesla sales growth currently seems limited by their ability to produce, so that's fairly bullish
Market cap isn't meaningless, though. Neither is debt. Market cap should be a function of assets, so presumably if Toyota had as little debt as Tesla it would be ~480b market cap.
Why is Tesla higher? It has a better story (not saying I buy it, but at least I can explain it!):
Better self driving prospects (data + compute), licensing charger design, huge growth numbers
I'd love anyone to justify that with a straight face.
There are lots of reasons for that enjoyment, but I'm not sure they matter
The Model Y Performance was $69,990 last year and now costs $54,490.
Not sure what point your trying to make, though. Smaller, faster-growing companies usually do trade at a premium over their larger, slower-growing counterparts. That's just... kinda how the stock market works?
You can certainly object to the magnitude of the difference between the two companies' PE ratios, but otherwise nothing seems weird here.
Elon factor. He's been a significant factor in quite a number of significant companies created. That seems an attractive bet he will do good things vs anyone else.
I'm pretty skeptical on all things Elon these days.
And Tesla FSD is not even best-in-class between car manufacturers (Mercedes is, with actual approved and shipped commercial L3), not to mention the entire self-driving market (where Waymo is way ahead).
Really? From what I've read and seen, Tesla's self-driving is starting to feel like the butt of most jokes in the space. And Musk's absurd insistence that cameras are the only sensors anyone needs isn't doing their technology any favors.
> Elon factor.
I think Musk might be running out of steam. The Twitter fiasco shows how unstable and unfocused he is; the whole thing could collapse like a house of cards at any time. I had extreme respect for him 7 years or so ago, but that has eroded over time, and now I see him as a delusional, abusive asshole who happened to have the charisma (a nice way of putting "talent for emotional manipulation") to help build some successful businesses. (And it still remains to be seen if Tesla and SpaceX will continue to be successful in the long term.)
IMO people are heavily discounting Toyota’s stock compared to their car/total sales for two reasons. Most critically their 200+ Billion dollars of debt, but also the significant sign of mismanagement from their useless investment in Hydrogen.
Hydrogen aircraft/heavy equipment could have real utility, but it’s simply not compelling for passenger vehicles. High capital and operating costs + low energy density + low efficiency all for faster fueling times.
Hydrogen only creates water, and can be refuelled as quick as gas.
Wouldn't have minded driving one of those Toyota Mirais, but there isn't even a Hydrogen station at the other end of the long trip I regularly do, nor is it any cheaper than gas anyways.
And that's the story all over, better tech environmentally and practically but no infrastructure, no hype, and no momentum. It's dead.
Longer term I expect charging to become a low margin commodity business, but other networks have had serious reliability issues so people may be willing to pay a premium simply to know everything will work when they get there.
PS: Even longer term I expect in road charging to become a thing on major highways, but that’s easily 20+ years away.
GM has a P/E ration of less than 6. Are they distressed? If not, isn't that absurdly cheap?
Reminds me of amazon vs everyone or nflx vs blockbuster. The 'market' seems to think tsla is just going to keep growing and gobble up much of the auto market share. Both amazon and nflx had absurd PEs for a long time. Eventually their grew into it.
6 P/E looks enticing as long as you think the 'E' is going to maintain itself over the long term. Do you think GM is going to maintain their earnings?
GM is a more difficult case. Their current efforts around Ultium haven't gone so well so far, and their ICE product line isn't even that much better. I think they will do well, but they have a lot of work to do.
They are still valued on $300k per car future numbers from when they were supposed to be renting cars with AI drivers in 2020, and the exuberance and “playing with house money” crowd has just kept the music going.
I’m aware of the solar roof thing and it’s more of a press release than a product.
A problem when you try to span those markets is you lose access to support from other major companies because you open up too many competitive fronts.
A further problem is when you try to reproduce a model (oil companies) that is dependent on finding and securing resources when almost everyone has a sufficient and unending oil-well-equivalent permanently incident on their roof.
Here is a grid storage project: https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/tesla-megapack-selected-big-n...
That's not a power plant... they are producing 0 electricity. They are allowing powerwall OWNERS to act as a grid-scale BATTERY. A battery != a power plant and produces nothing even remotely resembling a real power plant in recurring revenue.
>Here is a grid storage project: https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/tesla-megapack-selected-big-n...
Again, they are producing 0 electricity, they are selling a battery to someone else to use.
Let me know when Tesla starts building their own solar farms or nuclear power plants and using it to power their supercharger network. That will be the only way it's at all comparable to Shell.
Meanwhile, here is a Tesla subsidiary project https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-...
Tesla is also constantly vertically integrating. The writing is on the wall. If you’d rather not see it, then ok, that is your prerogative.
Except they don't, they specifically call it out as a "virtual power plant" because it doesn't produce power, and isn't regulated by the rules of a power plant that actually generates power.
>Meanwhile, here is a Tesla subsidiary project https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-...
So again, a battery, not a power plant, not actually producing any power. And at a cost that will be dramatically undercut by the wave of cheap LifePo4 batteries that make significantly more sense for grid storage and are slowly trickling into the US now that patents have expired.
>Tesla is also constantly vertically integrating. The writing is on the wall. If you’d rather not see it, then ok, that is your prerogative.
The "constant vertical integration" the Tesla fanboys constantly screech about is just a lot of marketing around doing exactly what every other auto company has done in the past. The fact they're finding secondary uses for their battery tech is great. But across the board, outside of EV's, they produce a vastly inferior product. The powerwall is an inferior product to countless existing home battery solutions. Their "solar roof" was literally a bailout of his cousin and is vastly inferior to existing solar panel options, and grossly overpriced. What's their total install base? 1,000 houses? Have they even hit that with the "solar shingles", not the bait and switch overpriced solar panel options?
I can't even tie a Tesla charger into my utility provider's night and weekend plan, I have to use a chargepoint or enel charger. So tell me all about this massive lead they've got.
At the very least, compare enterprise value (market cap + debt - cash & equivalents), so that you are comparing leverage agnostic values.
Why is Toyota investing in hydrogen when it makes no sense? What is Toyota going to do about it's massive debt.
These are some of the reasons Tesla is valued at what it is and Toyota is what IT is. Toyota has nothing exciting on the horizon that is going to dramatically change things for them.
Not to mention they make a pittance per car compared to Tesla.
Superior technology -- assuming it is; I have no idea -- often doesn't win.
It's superior in some cases where you have an existing pipeline network.
The robot: Tesla seems to have approximately reproduced the state of Japanese robotics in 2000 (Honda Asimo) using technology that has seriously advanced in twenty years. I am not qualified to say what the future value of that is, or why battery packs are a competitive advantage to something that never leaves the home.
Tech to sell to other car companies: Humans run the other car companies. What will they do if they recognize a competitive threat with a technology advantage? Will they say “great, let’s buy that from our competitor since they’re clearly superior”? Or are they more likely to say something like “let’s figure out a way to neutralize or eliminate this advantage” and then go about doing it (even as a collective)?
Tesla hired Toyota execs to build their manufacturing line. There is little chance that Toyota could not, if it could get out of its own way, do what Telsa is doing from a manufacturing and technology perspective. This to me suggests that others will, even if Toyota culturally cannot make it happen.
The profit per vehicle available is primarily indicative of competition. Toyota is a mature company in a mature segment with a lot of competition. Tesla is entitled to those numbers as long as they can maintain them and stave off competition. Some people think they will be able to do that for a long time. I’m not one of them.
Tesla’s barrier in justifying their market cap is not only the other car companies, of whom there are roughly a dozen with similar revenue or higher. In the process of capturing the value they are talking about, their competition becomes major portions of the structure of global markets in the energy and transportation sectors, at least.
If you factor in production, transmission, and combustion, tank cycling, and failure modes, is it still superior?
I also understand that there are fundamental limits to their physics and to the storage and transfer of hydrogen that put it at a severe disadvantage to batteries in these respects.
This does a reasonable job of explaining it:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2020/07/04/why-hydr...
This is more technical and lays out the advantages and disadvantages of both: https://c2e2.unepccc.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/09/...
Batteries also have the practical advantage that if a charging cable fails it does not with some probability spontaneously ignite into an invisible 1400 C flamethrower.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603....
What you're really arguing is the existence of practical limits. The problem is that most of these practical limits are solvable. Some have long been solved, and most anti-hydrogen claims are attacking an version of the technology that hasn't been true since the 1990s. In reality, FCEVs are already pretty close to BEVs on efficiency. This is especially the case once you look at full lifecycle costs and energy consumption, where battery production and recycling are going to be major penalties.
A hydrogen car is arguably safer than a battery car. The problem is that battery fires continue until they consume the car. But since hydrogen is lighter than air, hydrogen fires are not persistent nor do they surround the car with fire. This argument is basically fearmongering, and is as silly as Edison's attacks on AC power.
Hydrolysis maxes out at 65% efficient. Then you need to compress the hydrogen to 700 bar. Don’t forget to transport it unless you are doing hydrolysis and compression in your home. Then you need to convert it back to propulsion.
Do that and make it beat EVs without hand waving at battery recycling (old EV batteries are great for a lot of uses and better than primary products in many lower volume markets, so this argument is nonsense). Please cite your sources.
It's worth noting that electrolysis and fuel cells are electrochemical systems. It is only BEV propagandists that wants you to not be aware of this. If more people knew this, they'd know that FCEVs are eventually going to catch up and surpass BEVs. So instead, they lie and spread FUD like crazy.
Alkaline electrolysis maxes out at 66% theoretically. PEM is maybe 80% but that’s neglecting system-level losses.
You cannot extract energy from compressed gas if your fuel cell requires gas at that pressure in order to operate.
There is this weird cult of first principles I keep encountering where people think they’ve cracked the code but they just don’t understand systems.
The theoretical limit of both alkaline and PEM electrolysis efficiency is 100%. Real world is somewhat less, but you can get to something like 98% even in the real world: https://www.inceptivemind.com/hysatas-record-breaking-electr...
Fuel cells do not operate at 700 bars of pressure. There is definitely a possibility of extracting energy from compressed gases.
Sorry, but you are spouting total bullshit on all levels here. The only cult is whatever battery/electrification fanbase you’re a part of. You are just repeating BEV propaganda designed to shut down critical thinking and defame all alternative ideas. If anything, this type of tactic is a good sign that we are witnessing the end of the BEV, mainly because its advocates must resort to blatant lies to promote it.
What tech is Tesla going to sell to other car companies? Beyond allowing access to a charging network?
Other manufacturers want as little to do with Tesla tech as possible.
Hah, if only Toyota... At one point, Tesla was worth more than: Toyota, Volkwagen Group, Hyundai/Kia, General Motors, Ford, Nissan, Honda, Fiat Chrysler, Renault, Suzuki, Daimler, BMW, Mazda and Mitsubishi combined. (Plus several Chinese manufacturers: SAID, Geely, Changan, Dongfeng).
I suspect the stock is priced with the possibility that Toyota is reacting to EVs the way Nokia and Blackberry to the iPhone.
As a result, people need to think carefully about what comes next. If anything, BEVs represent a transitional technology. You can think of them as being what Reddit is right now. Sure, it disrupted what came before (i.e. Digg), but it is not the end-result of that particular business sector. And if that is the case, then it is likely that Tesla, not Toyota, that faces the biggest challenge in the future.
See the "Hydrogen ladder" for further, more eloquent, information.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-mic...
The simple fact is that fuel cell cars are also EVs. As a result, there are no fundamental limitations compared to BEVs. They are fundamentally guaranteed to be just as good as BEVs.
And since BEVs are not a sustainable technology, they are destined to be replaced by their truly sustainable alternative. Which is a "battery" made from water. That is the self-evident future of EVs.
I would recommend you to read the guidelines when posting here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> The simple fact is that fuel cell cars are also EVs. As a result, there are no fundamental limitations compared to BEVs. They are fundamentally guaranteed to be just as good as BEVs.
In other words, you pay for two cars in one when you could simply pay for one car and charge it from any wall outlet.
> And since BEVs are not a sustainable technology
This is a statement which requires proof.
In reality, hydrogen cars are far cheaper to make than BEVs. They have very little raw material needs. They do not need the hundreds of kilograms of batteries that BEVs need. They only need water as their raw material. That's fundamentally a superior idea. You can never make a coherent argument that an EV powered by rare or limited resources could ever be a better idea.
Again, a fuel cell car is literally an EV, only one whose "battery" is made from water. You cannot do better than that.
> You can never make a coherent argument that an EV powered by rare or limited resources could ever be a better idea.
Better idea or not, BEVs are being produced in ever-increasing numbers. Hydrogen cars are not. Sure, maybe that will change at some point in the future, but I think BEVs have too much momentum and capital behind them to fade away any time soon.
As an aside: judging by your word choice and tone in your comments, you seem to be emotionally invested in hydrogen cars. That's fine, but I think how you're presenting things is hurting your argument quite a bit.
BEVs where at basically zero not that long ago. The problem is that economically, they are always going to have a major upfront cost. And the more range and the larger the car, the bigger this will be.
It's Tesla fanboys that are invested in a particular outcome. My own opinion is just asking "what comes next?" If you ask that question honestly, you'll end up with the same opinion that I have.
• EV charging stations are already common, unlike hydrogen fuel stations that barely exist anywhere. Charging stations are easier and cheaper to install and maintain (no need to deliver fuel or deal with moving parts for high pressure or cryogenic storage), so this is likely to stay in BEV's favor.
• You can't refill the high-pressure hydrogen just by plugging into your home outlet. For people who can charge BEV at home it is a huge convenience.
• The range of the Toyota Mirai is barely higher than long-range BEVs'. It doesn't even solve BEVs' main shortcoming, despite compromising a lot of space for hydrogen tanks!
• High-end BEVs can already recharge to 80% under 20 minutes, and don't require you to be near the car while charging (so you can get a coffee/toilet break at the same time). All of this trouble and cost to shave it down to a 5 minute refill, which you have to spend attending to the pump, is just not worth all of the fuel costs, wasted car space, and rollout of a new fuel pipeline.
Hydrogen may find uses in aviation, or long-distance trucks, maybe heavy machinery, but it's a poor fit for passenger cars and has already lost.
2) Which is meaningless because hydrogen distribution is fundamentally cheaper. Once you realize that pipelines are cheaper than wires, you will eventually realize that hydrogen stations will be cheap to deploy and ultimately be cheaper than building enough charging stations for everyone.
3) Actually you can because home electrolysis is fully doable. This is another completely made-up argument. The only thing to be brought up is that you don't want home recharging at all. After all, cars are driven outside on the road, not at home. Once you have a network of refueling stations, you don't need a redundant refueling system at home.
4) That's like saying an ICE car has barely longer range. Your ignoring the fact that you need something like $30k of batteries to match that range in a BEV. For a FCEV that comes at a tiny cost.
5) And yet it is still an advantage. Five minutes, especially when you realize it is guaranteed everything single time, is a major advantage. And you will never have to worry about damaging the battery when refueling this fast.
This is ultimately a short-sighted argument. When hydrogen cars are no more expensive than ICE cars and the fuel is basically free, where does that leave BEVs? It doesn't. This is the end of the BEV.
Are you just trolling now? :) Do you think people charge their BEVs in their living room?
1. Even solar is not free - hardware has a cost and finite lifetime. We're not close to post-scarcity with electricity, so there will be cost for foreseeable future. "Free" hydrogen from production peaks isn't enough for mass adoption, especially that grids start to use batteries too.
2. Even if a tanker beats UHVDC, I'd expect last mile distribution cost to be really bad for a physical good.
3. A wallbox costs $600+, which IMHO is already outrageous. I can't imagine electrolysis station with high pressure pump to be cheaper. 30 seconds plugging in a driveway beats 5 minutes refuelling.
4. Fuel cells are expensive. BEVs are already cheaper than hydrogen cars.
5. Reliability of hydrogen stations is currently pretty low, worse than uptime of DC chargers.
You imply there are going to be a breakthroughs in hydrogen storage and fuel cell efficiency that will make hydrogen cars not suck, but not account for possible improvements in batteries. They have been gradually improving over the last decade, and got an order of magnitude cheaper too. There are further improvements in the pipeline, especially that exponentially increasing demand funds further development. Physics of hydrogen storage however are as tough as ever.
Seriously, what is your point here? Once you are a few miles away from home, you are closer to a public refueling station than your home. If there is a ubiquitous public refueling system, what is the value of home refueling/recharging? It is not much of a selling point.
1) Solar is already pretty cheap now. Turning solar and water into hydrogen will follow the same trajectory. It only shows your shortsightedness by not realizing this.
2) It is cheaper to distribute hydrogen than electricity. Pipes are fundamentally cheaper than wires. This is obvious if you looked at the basic physics of a pipe compared to wires.
3) A hydrogen pump is ultimately just a fuel pump. No more sophisticated than a natural gas station. And the problem with BEVs is that you can't move from that charge port for hours. A hydrogen car will always be refueled in 5 minutes.
4) Fuel cells are cheap and rapidly getting cheaper. You are blatantly inverting reality here. Hydrogen cars are cheaper than BEVs to make. Full stop. And it won't even be close once everything is said and done. An FCEV will cost no more than an ICE car to produce in the long run.
5) That's funny because you're admitting that DC chargers are terribly unreliable. Meanwhile, hydrogen stations usually suffer from lack of fuel, not lack of function. In the long run, this will cease to be an issue.
> You imply there are going to be a breakthroughs in hydrogen storage and fuel cell efficiency that will make hydrogen cars not suck, but not account for possible improvements in batteries. They have been gradually improving over the last decade, and got an order of magnitude cheaper too. There are further improvements in the pipeline. Physics of hydrogen storage however are as tough as ever.
There already have been "breakthroughs" in hydrogen storage. You do realize hydrogen cars are available right now and work exactly as advertised? This entire argument is trapped in the year 2010 and has never moved on. Not to mention the basic physics of batteries can never be solved. You will always have a large and heavy battery pack and it will always take a long-ish time to recharge. Instead of fantasizing about magic batteries from the future, it's time to thinking seriously about what comes after the BEV altogether.
That would show actual foresight. It would demonstrate that you really understanding the concept of disruptive innovation.
Though I don't think there are any good comparisons to be made with AMZN. Very different situation.
TM net income ~2.5 billion
The relative valuation seems about right. Also, your P/E ratio for TSLA seems really high. It’s about a third of that.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSLA/tesla/pe-rati...
This is why the endless talk about PE is so incredibly dumb and misleading when elevating companies.
They really need to work on charging infrastructure before they convince me to buy an electric car.
And the cost still needs to come way, way down. It seems like every electric car that has any decent range is a luxury car. I don't want a luxury car, I just want a super basic cheap car to get me from point a to point b.
Having to drive five to ten miles and wait for most of an hour to charge is just a bad experience.
The trick is to distribute chargers everywhere, because your car is going to be parked somewhere long enough to charge unless you’re a taxi or some other high utilization use case. Most will charge at home and or work, but some cannot.
My office and home don't have chargers and probably won't for a while, so I'd essentially have to make a special trip out on the weekends to charge my car while I get lunch nearby or something.
If I had to drive around for a while to find an open charging spot, I'd have to be more opportunistic about where/when I charge to stay ahead on it.
China this year reached $10k car with BYD introducing its $10k cars with sodium ion batteries, these are not like previous cheap cars which were practically golf carts. With the prices of batteries and solar electricity falling 10%-12% a year on avg I think electric cars are going to take over a lot faster than people are expecting. Main reason being cost ice cars are almost 3 times as expensive to run today as an electric car already. It will be 5-8 times in 5-8 years.
Hardest part is for apartment buildings. No big incentive to install chargers for public use.
Same thing for at work.
And checking the charging maps shows very few options anywhere near me and the few places that do only have a couple plugs. Would be annoying to find it's in use by the time I get there so I would have to wait for them and then me.
Sure maybe in years it will be common enough, but that’s my entire point. It doesn’t seem common at all around me yet, and I’m not going to buy an EV before charging is reasonably available.
Hence why I think it will expand outward from urban centres, motivated by e.g. ULEZ requirements.
I live in Wisconsin between Madison and Milwaukee.
There are perhaps 20 chargers in total in the entire suburb. Maybe 8 of them are fast chargers. There are another 20 in neighbouring suburbs.
And no, it's not an American suburb with single family homes. It's an European suburb with apartment complexes.
You can't even get a quality EV with a shorter range though for less than 50-70k. I'm not even sure I've spent that much on my car over the last decade, including gas, insurance, repairs, and initial cost. Makes it hard to justify the upgrade.
Seems like there may be 500evs coming back next year, so may look into that.
Bolt EUV is around 30k
One reason it's shame we'll never see the Bolt on Australian roads is because it actually stemmed from an electric vehicle concept designed here by GM’s Australian design centre and went into production in 2017.
Now, of course, with GM all-but out of Australia – apart from its ties to the shrunken GMSV outfit here – it's less likely than ever we'll ever see the Bolt models here.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/chevrolet-bolt-euvhttps://www.greencarreports.com/news/1139848_sub-40-000-evs-...
Around me there were very few places until McDonald's suddenly decided to have a charger at every drive-thru, and now I have as many chargers as McDonalds' around me.
- the price is easily 1.5x compared to an equivalent ICE car
- shorter driving ranges
- nearly non-existent charging infrastructure
Regardless, we don't have battery swap, and I don't think any (serious) manufacturers have plans to go that route, so it's a moot point.
But I'd have never admitted how much more efficient our old ICE car would have been at 50MPH than the usual 85MPH I preferred (it's 3 lanes wide and empty, so it's not unsafe to go slower, I just didn't want to).
When I need a 4x4, I hire. When I go on a weekend away with lots of gear, I get a trailer or larger car. Big family outing, people carrier. Fetch furniture, Uber van. Getting a huge car and using it for shopping or dropping kids off is allowing the rare use case to dictate how you experience the typical use case. Harder to park, fuel, maintain.
Hiring also means I don’t have the “wrong” large car which doesn’t fit the rare holiday where I need more seats or storage.
Long range fuel consumption at 5.3L/100kms, as usual at summer conditions.
Of course, ymmv : - )
The roof rack and Thule box cost maybe $1200 AUD. But the rack was also useful for attaching bicycle carriers.
The larger car is likely more expensive to purchase in the first place than the smaller car plus the roof box.
EVs are perfect if you road trip once or twice a year. If you’re road tripping every weekend then they may not be a good solution for you.
Check out Teslabjorns data ; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzv...
He does 1000 km range tests on youtube amongst other things.
A road trip is an outlier for me. I go on maybe 1-3/yr. The other 360 days, my driving is local, and with home charging I never worry about filling up.
I was driving to my office job in an F150, burning enough gas to finance and fuel a new Civic, all while being terrible to drive.
So I did the logical thing, and added a vehicle that was efficient and enjoyable to drive, a motorcycle.
But it's agility made me only further resent the truck during the winter months, so I also added a compact luxury sports sedan.
Worst part was the F150 was both "too much" truck to daily drive, but never enough when I needed to do truck stuff.
Tried to landscape my home with some crushed rock, had to do 9 trips bottomed out because of it's paltry payload. Couldn't tow enough to borrow a friend's skid-steer. Had to buy my bricks a half-pallet at a time, a full pallet bottomed it out before the forklift had even finished putting the full weight on.
Downsized the F150 to a Tacoma, anything over 1200lbs and it's more practical to pay for delivery using a proper commercial truck anyways.
In the end I ended up with 3 vehicles, and if I had the means I'd have 4, I'd split the compact luxury sports sedan into a small sports car and a full sized luxury sedan for long highway travels. And this is all before even adding an EV.
tldr: In the motorcycle community they say the correct number of bikes is always 1 more than what you have. I strongly feel that applies to cars/trucks too.
True mass adoption is already here. Not to say that I don't agree that range needs to increase (although it's incredibly rare I'd want to drive more than 250 miles without a 15 minute break). But I don't think the transition to electric will stop or slow or is really in any danger.
Since I don't commute to work, and usually take transit or walk for local trips, the bulk of my driving is longer trips. Range anxiety would kill me in an EV.
I do think there are some cases where it makes sense to at least choose the features of a car with some minority-trips in mind. For example, I drive to a snowy, mountainous region 2-3 times a year. I decided to buy an AWD car (sedan, as I dislike driving larger vehicles like SUVs). With the trips I've made since then, the added cost between the AWD and non-AWD versions of my car has already been covered by the savings in not having to rent a vehicle with AWD.
Tangential, but I was also offered an EV when I rented a car last week (after flying across the country), but I had no idea what the charging situation would be at my destination, so I turned it down and got an ICE car. Turned out to be the right call, as there were no charging facilities where I was going.
this is a problem with you and your wife's relationship, not the EV.
That's on the EV, not their relationship.
I think the idea of not taking an EV because in some edge case one might lose a few minutes (30m for charging most vehicles nowadays) extremely superficial and selfish in view of the huge disaster that is the climate crisis. Think about how your kids and grandkids will read such comments in 50 years.
This is of course a crude approximation but just drive slower if you have range anxiety.
Also did NYC -> Montreal in a Tesla and the charging situation was much more frustrating than I had expected.
Sure, there's a breaking point where gas prices go up crazy high, and there are the environmental concerns, but I don't think it's surprising or even unreasonable that part of the EV push back is "have to relearn how to plan trips".
One other thing that bothers me about this is that the range of a gas car is somewhat independent of weather conditions. An EV losing a chunk of its range (completely messing up your route planning) because it was colder outside than expected... well, that's just not acceptable.
Critical mass generally provides the scale to solve these problems.
Bingo. You don't have to agree with me but in my opinion anyone who needs a car and can afford an EV but not driving one is morally reprehensible. We needed to reduce our fossil fuel usage twenty years ago. People putting their own convenience above the environment are selfish and short-sighted.
I drove from Montréal to New York City in a gasoline powered car late at night, and in the 150+ miles between Plattsburgh and Albany I got range anxiety because I was getting low on gas and couldn't find any gas stations open. Of course this was in the days before smartphones and Google Maps and Gasbuddy etc.
It's also true that running out of gas doesn't require a tow. You just need roadside assistance to bring 5-10 gallons to get you back on the road in minutes.
I find the idea of the portable power fascinating and have watched some YouTube videos on them, but it seems like a very expensive and niche thing so far. I've seen one company on YouTube that showed it off.
I wanted an EV since back when I lived in an apartment, wished there was some sort of big capacitor on wheels I could charge all day from a normal outlet that would then fast charge my car for a few minutes.
Most actual products seem to use batteries and cost thousands, and are for some unique scenario where you somehow can't just public charge. Still find them neat though.
I think they typically just tow you to a charging station, seems a lot easier/faster/cheaper given they already own tow trucks.
In my opinion the only cost effective battery to travel around with would be the one inside an existing EV, I just hope we get beyond household outlet speeds for V2L. Would be neat if a passing EV could rescue at 50kw or something fast.
Sure, you've effectively halved your normal-case range, but a refill of an ICE car is much less of a hit to your trip time than a recharge of an EV, and your best-case range (if you really need it) still remains the same.
When driving long distances on an EV, I think using ABRP is a must, to have an idea of all alternative routes.
I recently drove to a campground in Yellowstone from LA (about 1000 miles) in an ICE SUV in less than 15 hours, including multiple rest/food breaks and traffic delays in the park due to road work. We didn't plan any stops on the way, and only got gas when we stopped for restroom breaks.
Right now, driving an EV means giving up a significant amount of freedom and turns what should be a pleasant road trip into a stress-inducing chore...and that doesn't even take into account the lack of charging options at home for those of us who don't live in single-family dwellings.
Sorry, your co-worker is likely lying... that would mean something like 14 hours of charging per 9 hours of driving which is very far from reality. Easy way to check: https://abetterrouteplanner.com
Assuming infinite fuel/charge, LA to SLC is 9 hours of driving with good traffic, in temperate weather.
In the winter, temperatures along the way can approach or drop below freezing; in the summer most of the drive is 100+ degree temperatures. In both cases, the temperature drastically lowers range before taking AC/heating into account. This has little to no effect on ICE vehicles (except at the start of the drive when the engine is warming up) but has huge effects on EV vehicles; cold can reduce EV range by as much as 40% and the heat reduces range by about 15%. This means that a Model 3's theoretical range would only be about 200-280 miles. This means the car has to be charged at least twice for the trip to Vegas, and 2-3 times for the trip from Vegas to SLC. It turns out the charging situation is great from LA to Vegas (Barstow, Baker, and Primm) but almost non-existent past Vegas (essentially nothing past Vegas until you reach St George, hence the need to plan stops.
If you're lucky and the Supercharger is available when you need it, great.. Not so great when all the spots are taken, and you're either waiting in the cold/heat or relying on the EA station a few miles down having working charging. Unfortunately, EA stations along this route generally don't have supercharging speeds...
While in Yellowstone I encountered a handful of Teslas from Angelenos who said that it took them the better part of 2 days to get there (but otherwise weren't specific about the time, route, charging situation, etc), so it's not an isolated incident.
Long story short: just because you're a techie and can optimize your EV driving doesn't mean everyone else will. Your experience is the exception, not the norm.
> It turns out the charging situation is great from LA to Vegas (Barstow, Baker, and Primm) but almost non-existent past Vegas (essentially nothing past Vegas until you reach St George...
Both Tesla and EA have chargers 80 miles from Vegas in Mesquite? And something like 14 locations combined between Vegas and SLC?
> ...relying on the EA station a few miles down having working charging. Unfortunately, EA stations along this route generally don't have supercharging speeds...
Every EA station between Vegas and SLC has >= 1 charger at 350 kW, I don't understand what you are saying. Regardless, the charging curve for a Model 3 spends a lot of time <= 150 kW so it doesn't make a ton of difference.
> Long story short: just because you're a techie and can optimize your EV driving doesn't mean everyone else will. Your experience is the exception, not the norm.
This makes sense in parts of the country where fast charging is scarce. The route between LA and SLC is full of chargers, both Tesla and CCS. Tesla handles the routing for you, there is nothing to optimize on this route.
They do...now...They did not several months ago when my coworker attempted this drive. At least, none that were working or available.
Every EA station between Vegas and SLC has >= 1 charger at 350 kW
Yes, they do. And they have on average of 0 working chargers at 350 kW, so the theoretical charging speeds are irrelevant.
Tesla handles the routing for you, there is nothing to optimize on this route.
Ah yes, Tesla does such a good job at routing. Just like how it loves to route cars into trucks and stopped vehicles. Just because your experience with your empty Tesla works for you doesn't mean it works for families with greater charging needs.
The Mesquite EA location has photos on Plugshare dating back to 2019 and the Tesla locations opened in 2021 and 2022. You can check https://supercharge.info for opening dates of the superchargers along the route. EA built that interstate out quite a while ago.
> Just because your experience with your empty Tesla works for you doesn't mean it works for families with greater charging needs.
I don't drive a Tesla but I also don't understand what this means. The route has superchargers and EA chargers all over, damn near perfectly spaced out, and the navigation system includes them in routing. If your coworker took 24 hours on this route, it was not caused by driving an electric vehicle. Again, you can use ABRP, modify the variables, and check for yourself: it is not possible to get anywhere near that amount of charging time on that route regardless of conditions.
....how?
HOW!?
I drive a Model 3. I recently drove from Portland, OR to Santa Clara and back 665 miles each way. Each way only took ~12 1/2 hours.
I'm sorry, but either your co-worker is lying, or they're bad at driving, or there's more to the story. Did they think they need to charge to 100% at each charging stop or something?
You might want to consider that not everybody is driving themselves; some people have families with them and that changes the calculus of how you approach the drive.
Road trips are a problem, but charging infrastructure will eventually handle it. During the cross over period you could rent an ICE car.
I don't think 1 road trip a year is enough to sway most people off the idea of an EV if they want one. It's only going to sway those who are already skeptical.
You won't consume fuel while at a dead stop in the traffic jams. You'll have peak efficiency when moving at low speeds in the traffic jams. You'll already be charged up at home, while everyone else will be waiting in line at gas stations to fill up. Some people won't even be able to get gas, because the stations will run out in the rush.
Vehicles travel for hundreds of miles in the event of a major storm. Some places may be up to 6 weeks without power upon returning. So you drive your battery powered car back home, and now it's dead, and you have no way to recharge it. Guess what you're going to be relying on to get basic essentials given that FEMA vehicles are NOT coming to you to deliver food? Someone else's ICE.
So when it's 100 degrees and 90 percent humidity outside and your neighbors with the ICE vehicles have gone to the gas stations for refills to both their vehicles AND their generators so that they can run a portable AC unit, you're utterly out of luck with your electric paperweight. I suppose you have a shot if you still have working solar panels, but in the situations I mentioned... LOL. Even if the winds don't shred them, the debris will.
This would not be possible on ICE vehicles, IMHO.
It gives us a choice/warning right? Because sometimes I'll stop charging so it doesn't trip the breaker as I run something else.
EVs should be more efficient when driving at low speed than an ICE car, and the regenerative braking in stop-and-go traffic will help reclaim some wasted energy.
EV's don't expend power running the motor when stopped in traffic. Most ICE cars out there do not auto shut off their engines when idling (it's fairly recent that many newer cars have that feature), and even those that do need to turn the engine back on after a few minutes in order to run the car's electronics.
For the people who can charge at home (admittedly, there are many who cannot), their cars will likely already be fully charged when the evacuation order comes down. And we already know what happens with ICE cars when there's excessive demand for fuel: hours-long waits at the pump, and gas stations that run out entirely.
Toxicity and pollution of producing the battery is an immediate one. And the fact it's junk in 5-6 years, obsoleting often the entire car (or requiring an extremely expensive replacement).
The fact BEV are much heavier and are wearing down the roads much faster.
And while ICE are of higher risk of a fire, an ICE fire seems like child's play compared to a BEV fire. This thing is impossible to put out and turns everything around to fine (and very toxic) dust (including, again, the road below).
Here too, though I was told the wait list was "only" 8 months. Nonetheless, I couldn't wait that long, so I had to buy another brand.
Wasn't the original goal to sell 2 million, not produce 2 million?
This is not the actual case while possible, they have been investing heavily in production capacities in Berlin , Shanghai, Texas etc however they are not so far outstripping demand with new capacity.
Tesla has very aggressive capacity being built in Texas , Mexico, Berlin and Shanghai not to mention other component plants in Nevada, Canada Netherlands etc.
It is quite probable next year they cannot keep growing sales aggressively as before and some capacity will idle despite breaking records and hitting targets and having more unsold inventory .
> The deliveries are the most ever in a quarter for Austin-based Tesla, and a 83% increase from a year ago. The company also managed to trim the gap between production and deliveries — a figure closely watched by analysts — to 13,560 units in the second quarter. In the first quarter, it produced nearly 18,000 more cars than it delivered to customers.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-02/tesla-set...
135k for single income and 200k if you are jointly filing?
I don't like that there is an income level cutoff. Hear me out... a single person with an income of $299k living in Nebraska has way more expendable income than a single income family with 4 kids with an income of $299k living in the bay area.
In order to bypass the made in America restrictions, they take the commercial fleet credit, then pass it on to you.
People could have multiple children, debt, sick relatives, etc.
Maybe that 300k person in Nebraska had 20 kids or something. Using the area as a measurement is complex
If it's truly an incentive, incentivize everyone. I know people who make $1 million/year who will argue over $10. $7500 would absolutely affect their behavior even though they can afford an EV without it.
Environmental subsidies on a $100k car doesn't seem quite right... Doubly so if it applies to stuff like the Hummer EV.
https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/en/eligibility-guidelines
But just to add to a reply. A Hummer EV charged with renewables is better than an SUV as long as it lasts more than x miles .
Obviously there's complexity about what it's replacing, where that goes blah blah
Seems like this could have been incentive for people to go back to normal sized cars - it should have been same or even more for cars than for large vehicles.
If you are looking for build quality I would still look elsewhere. Tesla is literally cutting corners.
What is HNs view on the Cybertruck? Outside of the design will it be substantially differentiated from the American leaders?
Worse, the Cybertruck is looking less and less useful: the payload capacity is ? The tray size is ? Basically what is a Cybertruck for? Who is buying it compared to another vehicle at this point?
It's a pile of features which no one needs, and very quiet about the ones people do. No one needs "shatter proof windows" in a car. No one needs it to be a boat. What I need is it to carry heavy loads and seat 5 people. Can it do that? Can it do that better then something else?
Nobody has an actual viable electric truck right now. Cybertruck stats remain to be seen.
This is dogshit... how?
Stopping to charge for an hour every 140 miles is awful.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/148x6oa/cybert...
I am not sure if that's a test vehicle, or if they have started production.
People buy ugly cars. God knows why. Why did people go bananas for the beetle?
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/smart-fortwo-2010-3...
I only kind of want a truck but the cybertruck claims to add enough interesting features (bulletproof, 500mi range, Teslas charging network and autopilot) that it crosses the threshold into buy territory for me.
why does anyone need a pickup whose bed can't fit a sheet of plywood?
why does anyone need leather seats in their pickup truck?
why does anyone need 4WD, when they go on gravel roads 1 day a year?
why does anyone need a grille taller than a middle schooler?
who is buying this crap?
everyone is lol. drive around sometime.
That's an absurd statement.
Total truck sales in the US are 2 million a year. Total BEV truck sales so far is under 50k per year.
Saying the Cybertruck is to late make absolutely no sense what so ever.
Its a total misunderstanding on the ability of Ford and Rivian to grow their sales. Ford has a serious battery issue, as they were very, very late in setting up their own battery factories.
> the payload capacity is ?
Better then that of the competing trucks ...
> The tray size is ?
The same as an F150
> Basically what is a Cybertruck for?
The same thing most trucks are for, for dumb Americans to feel cool.
> Who is buying it compared to another vehicle at this point?
Anybody who would buy a dumb truck.
> No one needs "shatter proof windows" in a car.
Actually window replacement can have pretty high cost.
> No one needs it to be a boat.
That's not an official feature but something Musk talked about on twitter once.
> What I need is it to carry heavy loads and seat 5 people. Can it do that? Can it do that better then something else?
Yes it can. It will also be far more efficient then the F150 meaning you will spend far less on fuel. And it will likely have better range to.
Also it will likely be cheaper, F-150 has gone up in price and dealers add another huge chunk on top.
I can’t speak for everyone, but if it has vehicle to home power and a button to the play Mad Max fury road theme while shooting flames… I’m buying one.
If you’re being serious, it would boggle my mind that people pick vehicles based on politics. Suppose Bernie Sanders was CEO of a EV company that made great cars. I’d happily buy one of his cars!
Virtue signaling isn't technically the same as politics, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
Also not quite politics, but Subaru famously leaned in to marketing to lesbians.
There's also a generation of Americans who refused to buy Japanese cars because of politics.
As for using it for casual camping who cares people take everything here camping. Heck I’ve seen plenty Tesla’s down FSRs here to go camping parked next to miata’s.
Please don't buy one.
While certainly cybertruck looks tough and dangerous, there is no reason why there can't be crumple zones. It makes it safer for passengers as well.
Look at Tesla sales growth over the last 10 years. Its pretty consistent. You can not look at that growth and say 'look here is where Musk got distracted'.
Also, the success now, is because of the technology and investment work done 3-5 years ago.
Not liking a person is fine, Musk has issues, but there is no reason to drop your brain when evaluating business numbers.
> Nevermind the number of unrealized buyers who are passing on the brand because of it's toxic leadership, but perhaps you can switch metrics again to counter this point?
What could have happened in some other theoretical universe that only exists in your imagination is utterly irrelevant.
The CEO paying slightly less attention for a few months doesn't magically make factories produce more cars.
Tesla also has a good margin, making money on every sale. Other producers LOSE money on every sale.
It's impossible to predict the future, but it's not hard to imagine one where Tesla dominates the EV market in a pretty big way.
- Tesla beat estimates about 20k but tesla had severals sales - I thing 4 or 5 times
- Tesla still didn't delivery 15k cars = parked in warehouse because no orders
Yes they did do discount. Tesla still has higher margin than pretty much all the other car makers. They still have room to adjust price if they want.
> Tesla still didn't delivery 15k cars = parked in warehouse because no orders
Any difference that other car makers? There are always cars in the inventory for all makers. For Tesla you can see the numbers. Others may hide it by shipping unsold vehicles to dealers. It's also not "no orders", only "not yet ordered"
Also, Tesla did deliver 466K vehicles, which is a record. With all the competition coming and the headwinds, they still manage to beat the record.
So that's about no stock.
Pretty good considering the tech stock drop.
Tesla's share price is still that of a technology company rather than a car company. It's not yet entirely clear whether that's warranted, but their self-driving moat is rapidly shrinking. I'd much rather be a SpaceX investor than a Tesla one.
Their share price still has a decent chance of doing so, down to a P/E ratio more similar to the other car makers.
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v...
[1] https://futurism.com/video-elon-musk-promising-self-driving-...
The article’s headline:
> Watch Elon Musk Promise Self-Driving Cars "Next Year" Every Year Since 2014
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/25/23321553/tesla-takedown-v...
Amazing how people can dislike on person so much to then buy the bullshit from another complete charlatan hook line and sinker.
https://www.kron4.com/news/california/video-self-driving-tes...