The world is watching in disbelief as France tears itself apart | Hacker News Reader

The world is watching in disbelief as France tears itself apart

telegraph.co.uk

33 pointsxqcgrek272 comments

Reading this (why?) I got the impression the writer was working feverishly to make people think France's police weren't heavy handed enough the past 25 years. Rabid authoritarianism is a core Telegraph value, and it's weird to see it getting upvoted here.

So I clicked her name.

If you've ever wondered what a blatant apparatchik looks like: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/a/ak-ao/anne-elisabeth-m...

I'm certainly no great fan of Macron and his neolib smuggery, but this lady's list of articles is concerning. As are some of these comments...

It is difficult for me to get an accurate picture of what is actually going on from emotional pieces like this one. Where can I read about the facts?

Watch the video for yourself:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Killing_of_Nael_M._Vide...

You should also be aware that this person was known to the police and it is easy to research why.

I meant what is going on right now, not what started what is going on.

Great job by the officer. If we treated all criminals this way, there would be no crime!

I wouldn't consider this an appropriate response to a nonviolent offender.

He wasn‘t „nonviolent“ though:

„According to the public prosecutor of Nanterre, two Paris Police Prefecture motorcycle officers noticed a Mercedes-Benz A Class AMG with a Polish license plate driving at high speed in a bus lane, driven by a young-looking person at around 7:55 am. The officers activated their warning signals (audible and visual) and indicated to the driver of the car, then stationary at a red traffic light, to stop. The vehicle proceed to start moving and ran the red light. The officers followed the car and alerted their superiors via radio. The car committed multiple traffic violations, endangering a pedestrian and a cyclist. Due to traffic congestion, the vehicle was eventually forced to stop.“

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk#Shoot...

Where in any of that account was any violence committed? Traffic violations. You're calling that violence. So we should be charging everyone who runs a stop sign with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon now?

If the endangered cyclist, pedestrian and other folks in cars where your family members, you‘d think about your words again. Also, the cops have a life too and probably weren‘t sure what that maniac would do next.

It‘s obvious the killing was a bad reflex from a cop who felt endangered too. A bad reflex he surely regretted the second thereafter.

Also, if all you better human beings feel like you‘d act much wiser in such intense situations, maybe you should consider becoming a cop, and ideally in a crime-ridden area, instead of judging bygone situations from your safe space.

so there was still no violence, nor any actual victims of his driving, just traffic violations, and all you have to offer is appeals to emotion over hypothetical victims?

it's pretty clear you have a narrative agenda and don't care if you have to throw reason out the window to push it, since that's exactly what you're doing.

> maybe you should consider becoming a cop, and ideally in a crime-ridden area

people like you who say this never consider that people like me live in those crime-ridden areas and have already seen firsthand the abuse of power dynamics inflicted on my minority neighbors by power-tripping cops.

or in your hypothetical do you have to actually be the cop? bc not everyone dreams of growing up one day to be a petty tyrant. but again, nobody is forcing them to be cops. if they can't handle doing their job without murdering teenagers they should quit.

edit: it's also a fascinating choice to be humanizing the cop (he regretted it so much!) but there's a dead kid you have no sympathy for in any of your commentary, what's that about?

I don’t think we should treat it like they have a deadly weapon, but at the same time, cars are incredibly deadly at the best of times. A 17 year old trying to escape from law enforcement in a stolen vehicle is a significant danger to the public, regardless of if they have violent intentions. Apparently before the police had managed to stop the vehicle in the video in question he had nearly run down a pedestrian and a bicyclist while fleeing. I obviously don’t think people should just be shot, but I also think it’s insane to just let someone fleeing in a vehicle have free range. I’m not sure what the solution is.

I propose de-escalating the situation. We're talking about a kid whose record can best be described as "hooligan" and has not drawn a weapon. If he gets away, you have his plates on-camera and can put a warrant out for his arrest. If he poses a continued threat to the public, you can negotiate a traffic interception, pit maneuver, spike strips or an undercover tail.

It's hard to expect a perfect response from anyone in this situation, but it's not a war zone we're talking about here. He wasn't "the enemy". He was a citizen in non-compliance with the law and deserves due process. It's like having an ICBM sent to your house for pirating Kung Fu Panda.

Can't really de-escalate without communicating.

Moreover - and this has yet to be publicly confirmed by some official - the kid, which police couldn't know was a kid - was fleeing because the car was declared stolen, the license plate tagged, and part of a drug money laundering scheme using stolen Polish rent-a-cars the dealer which was employing the young man was running.

Moreover - <a series of incredible escalatory claims with absolutely zero sources>.

This comment fails to contribute meaningful discussion at best, and at worst is openly attempting to spread misinformation.

Have you heard of the web? A quick Google search takes you far.

"he was 'known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest', and had been charged with resisting the previous weekend and five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of drugs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk

The only one "spreading misinformation" here is you who claims that endangering people with a car is a "traffic violation".

In short, sounds like you're the one with the "narrative agenda" here.

Not all cops are bad or "petty tyrants", as you call them, but if a person decides he wants to be a criminal, he risks getting killed, especially if he himself risks killing other people.

That text you quoted appears literally nowhere in the source you cited. Which is Wikipedia.

I combed all the article sources cited in that entry. And turns out the only source for the claims of criminal history was a single anonymous police tip to a gossip rag (https://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/info-europe-1-mort-de-na... - Europe1 is not known for its journalistic ethics), and all credible journalism indicates he had no actual criminal record because he had never been tried for any of the alleged incidents. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66052104) To be a criminal you have to be convicted. We assume innocence in western legal tradition.

Again, you're not providing any sources that actually back up your claims. Aside from a single anonymous cop - which if it actually were true, wouldn't the department have publicly revealed his criminal past since you seem to think it disculpatory?

Your replies here still reek here of agenda and your attempts to rebut are intellectually dishonest.

> endangering people with a car is a "traffic violation".

Nobody died, nobody was even injured, and no sources have claimed he even intentionally tried to hit anyone. He ran a red light while speeding. Those are both traffic violations, and unless someone was injured they would be prosecuted as such no matter how hysterically you try to whip frenzy over hypothetical harm to claim they're violence.

edit: the irony of trying to cite a "criminal history" that shows a history of cops harassing him and trumping up reasons to file reports that went nowhere because they had no case to actually prosecute - you're making my point for me. petty tyrants.

It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make.

Honestly if the police can't stop him without killing him, they aren't doing their job well enough.

The policeman has been charged with homicide and is in custody over the killing of a teenager near Paris.

> largely the result of almost a quarter century of craven governments neglecting essential law and order.

Sorry, but no telegraph.

I think the protesters just want a reason to riot and to find a vehicle for their frustrations, but a framing like this is just as much a form of venting.

I understand people flagging this, it's a sensitive topic. Though it's a shame we can't have a better discussion about this. This doesn't look like normal civil unrest which France has a history of. The current narratives aren't helpful. It seems that racism became an excuse to be criminal and crime an excuse to be racist.

I'm a a technologist but technology can't be dissociated from politics. Something is wrong, society is sick and I fear the immuno response may kill the host. People on both sides of the political spectrum are radicalizing, electing authoritarian figures and supporting censorship.

Odd. The wanton stabbing of multiple children in a park in Annecy [1] didn't trigger any sort of us-vs-them reaction. Meanwhile this case, where the officer responsible has already been charged with homicide [2] (and the victim had before tried to speed away, only stopping when forced to by traffic, and again sped away immediately before being shot), is causing nationwide riots. What gives? Why does the stabbing of multiple children barely register, but this case is an explosion?

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65841666

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66075798

The park stabbing was a lone crazy person, that was clear to everyone.

The police murder was perpetrated by a member of an omnipresent institution that people in disaffected communities have negative interactions with regularly.

In the US, the police kill 25 white people per 10 million white people per year: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ (the graphic shows per 1 million, but over 10 years)

In France, the police kill 5.5 people per 10 million people per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_by_law_enforcement._R...

In other words, US police kill 4.5x more white people, than French police kill anyone. But you are absolutely right (despite the cop responsible being charged with homicide) - in one case the guilt is collective, in the other, it's just lone individuals, and no patterns can or should be perceived.

As a bonus, in that killings by law enforcement wikipedia table, there are many countries higher than France. But with a few notable exceptions (the US being one), those killings seldom provoke ethnic riots, despite being much more numerous. So what makes the killings in France so much more salient?

This is a misunderstanding of the psychology behind the unrest. Feelings of unfairness and unjust persecution (relative to other people you live around) is what motivates social unrest. And not just unfairness in Black/Arab vs non-Black/Arab statistics around police killings. Perceptions of general unfairness (e.g. being mistreated by police but not killed) build up over years and then you have a straw that finally breaks the camel's back. The straw is relatively unimportant in the bigger picture. It's just a catalyst that multiple people with the same built-up feelings can rally around. In order to have a protest movement, you need an acute emotional trigger that's shared by everyone at the same time. Otherwise it can't get started because the anger is too diffuse over time.

I‘m sure the interactions the cops regularly have are pretty negative also.

They can always get a different job instead of killing people.

Nonsense. Following your logic, there‘ll be no cops left eventually.

Also, it‘s obvious the killing was nothing but a bad reflex to an intense situation. I‘m sure the cop regretted this bad reflex the second thereafter.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk#Shoot...

If you think you‘d handle everything correctly in such an intense situation, while your life is also at risk due to a maniac behind a wheel, maybe you should consider becoming a cop.

It‘s always easy to feel like a better human being and badmouth people from your cozy safe space, when you‘ve never been in an intense situation like this before.

The problems in France run much deeper than the police murdering a brown person. Massive influx of a segregated immigrant population who are forced economically into neglected areas and discriminated against routinely. Over-incarceration and prison system create a breeding ground for criminality and terrorism. Worsening economic outlook for many combined with neoliberal systematic neglect and increased taxation through austerity. The populist fascist white nationalists under Nationally Rally (National Front) who hope to push out Macron would make the situation worse. Riots are what happen when people lack jobs, money, housing, safety, love, or justice.

If I could get a pound every time the Telegraph predicted the end of France, I could safely take my retirement in a paradise island right now.

Too bad they were much more "conservative" to predict this bloody mess that became Brexit...

This take is absolute classic Telegraph shit. My own tendencies lay way more in sympathy to the people, support protests, believe it's part of the great arch of society. I don't want to agree with this article at all.

And it's not this incident specifically.

I hate it, but I have some unease about tensions in general & how they manifest. I believe in the social contract, and I'm not sure how we can fulfill our obligations to ourselves, and how we can renew a sense of justice & improvement after things go wrong. I don't know the situation in France well, but in general, I've harbored some worry in the last 5 years or so that (often justified & honest & deserved) reactions can have large negative impacts on society, and I don't think we the world have the margins to soak these kinds of losses that we used to. Ideally the world would be more oriented towards sustainability, towards resilience, would have safety nets, and be better prepared. But it feels like so much of our social structures do - and i hate to say this, hate the conservatism this implies - rest delicately or precariously in balance.

I really so strongly agree with what you are saying. But I also want to find some way to find some permissible perspectives that recognize some of the nuance / scaredness, that can acknowledge some of the very conservative fear for the status quo & it's disruption, ideally without having to also demonize & counter-attack while doing so.

I think a large part of it is that they imported a bunch of different disparate cultures over the last few years. All those cultures have their own little societies, and I think very little integration.

So you have a mixture of oil and water.

And when the new ones have no home or responsibilities and are fed by the government, well, ha, who knew they would bite the hand that housed, fed, and clothed them.

Everyone and their brother predicted the Brexit mess.

France definitely has a problem. Somewhere along the way people started to believe that the only way to affect change is thru riots and mass destruction. That's how I see it as an outsider. The bigger problem is that this type of actions is fuel for a conservative strong person to take over as a leader. It may not be the end for France but big changes are coming to it, if things don't change. Eventually the majority gets scared and vote in a law and order strong man.

> Somewhere along the way people started to believe that the only way to affect change is thru riots and mass destruction

Probably around 1789?

Yes, and you know how that turned out. A world war, a strong man that called himself emperor and many lives lost. Napoleon was so hated that before there was a Hitler, Napoleon was used as the sample of the most hated and horrible man in history. There are better ways to bring about change than to riot and destroy.

https://archive.is/pYowX

Anyone who has been watching the increasing insanity that is immigration in Europe predicted this years ago. No one should be in "disbelief."

“The viral video of a 17-year-old Nahel Merzouk seemingly listening to the policemen who stopped him in the street only to be shot point-blank”

That’s not what the video shows. The kid in the car has a gun pointed at him and drives off, very clearly. He is then shot in the arm.

Nobody is disputing either of the above.

Some people say the officer was dragged but I can’t tell myself.

Video is at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk

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