Aspartame: Once More Unto the Breach
dynomight.net
dynomight.net
I just don't get how people are content to consume this stuff - they markedly change the taste, indelibly affecting the thing they're sweetening. Heck, even stevia adds its own distinct nastiness to whatever it flavours.
So, I stick with sugar, and just consume waay less of it than I used to. Though this somewhat limits the choice of soft drinks I can enjoy consuming when it comes to a treat.
I just don't get how people are content to consume this stuff
This may be pedantic or overly literal but: do some folks not understand that the same food substance may taste wildly different to different people?I'm with you, by the way. Alternative sweeteners taste like absolute poison to me. Like I've accidentally sipped some industrial cleaning chemicals or something.
But I'm also one of those people that likes cilantro. To some people, it is incredibly nasty and it "tastes like soap." My impression is that some people think us cilantro-enjoyers actually enjoy the soapy taste as opposed to simply not experiencing the soapy taste at all.
The difference in experience is not because I enjoy the taste of soap. Cilantro just simply does not taste like soap to me! Based on all available anecdotal evidence that is why some people enjoy the taste of artificial sweeteners: it actually does taste like sugar (or close enough) to them and not like they are chugging cleaning fluids.
(edit: softened wording, clarified)
Like most things, you can learn to enjoy artificial sweeteners. Whether or not that is a good thing probably depends on your current diet.
Found I could tolerate Sprite Zero. Drank enough of that when it was all that was available that it didn’t taste disgusting anymore, then tried some Coke Zero and it didn’t taste so bad anymore. From there pretty much everything was on the table.
Edit: I went to look and guess I'm mistaken below on Sucralose in zero-branded sodas. It sounds like most of these do have aspartame. I guess I just assumed they were doing the same thing as zero-sugar energy drinks since I feel like they started coming to market in roughly the same time frame and used similar zero-sugar marketing.
Sucralose, which is AFAIK what you're getting in most modern zero-branded sodas and 0-20ish calorie energy drinks, is... ~good (to me). I keep liquid concentrate of it at home for coffee and will take a travel bottle with me if I know I'm going somewhere ~crunchy that insists on only raw sugar and stevia.
Where coriander is concerned I on occasion get that soapy taste, but like once a decade and it weirds me out, otherwise it just tastes like it should :)
Soon after I met the woman who later became my wife, I was introduced to her family, including her brother and sister, and her cousins. As soon as I found out her cousin Wayne ran the website nocilantro.com, I knew this was going to be a good family to be associated with. I've considered myself a subscriber to nocilantro.com ever since.
I don't actually mind how they taste, but post-consumption regret has driven my behavior here.
As a kid to young adult I would drink non-diet soda for the caffeine boost but switched to diet as I got older and my metabolism slowed down.
At first diet soda didn't taste as good to me but was worth it for not gaining weight, but at this point after many years of having made the switch diet sodas taste better to me and drinking real sugar cola tastes significantly worse.
Personally if given the choice between a regular coke and coke zero, I will choose the zero every time.
But if you want another data point about how other people feel about it... me and my relatives can't stand the taste of Coca Cola with sugar/syrup in it. Coke Zero tastes much better. It's aspartame.
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/should-mens-products-fear-a-woman...
Coke Zero is an actual Diet version of Coke.
A compromise between health and taste.
You make a different compromise.
I understand.
I just don't get how people are content to consume this stuff
Food is not just about taste, you know. Even if it's sweets. The whole point of sweeteners is that they provide a nutritional upside (fewer calories, don't spike blood sugar). and just consume waay less of it than I used to
I consume none of it - almost never. And the only way I will have sweets is with artificial sweeteners. I agree they don't taste as great, but they also don't have as many calories.No, but diet soda is literally just about taste. There's no nutritional value versus water.
[1] https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/multiple-genes-manag...
Though I agree, aspartame, sucrose and stevia taste gross.
This really depends on personal tastes and on which food is used.
I use aspartame-based sweeteners on milk products, and I can't distinguish it from sugar.
On the other hand, Stevia tastes terrible to me in any food/drink and quantity.
From the article:
> (Incidentally, this same logic does not apply to other artificial sweeteners which mostly aren’t broken down at all.)
I would rather have something break down into fairly benign chemicals than have to deal with chemicals that don't break down and are not compatible with my body and are a borderline poison.
About a year ago, this single fact changed my mind about it being 'very bad' for you. If given a choice between a sugar drink (cola) and an aspartame flavored drink ('zero' cola), I will take the aspartame.
I don't understand why this should even be choice. Why not drink water, and know that it's the best possible option?
I think it's an American thing though. When I've been over there, everything was so sickeningly sweet.
What would the other choices be when you're talking about substitutes? Why would you expect the inclusion of items that are not substitutes?
It’s a debate about drinking sugar or artificial sweeteners when you want to enjoy a drink. Why is that fact lost in this discussion?
Besides, if you really need a flavour, squirt a little citrus juice or something in there, your tastebuds don’t need to be bombarded 24/7.
People eat for pleasure, and people drink for pleasure too. People like things to taste nice sometimes, get off their case.
When I'm offered a drink, it's a very simple, go/no-go life decision. I don't prepare and carry fruit juices around in my pockets.
When offered a drink, aside from the occasional (non-sweet) alcoholic beverage, I typically choose (flavorless) water.
The dose is what makes the difference here.
Well that's not true at all, given that millions of households use continuous plug-in air fresheners all day, every day. Multiple industries exist solely around scenting the air. Your analogy just doesn't hold up to reality.
(This is why we need p2p communication protocols over platforms and federation. The loud, unreasonable moderators and censors are in the minority. Most people can agree to disagree and appreciate diversity of thought.)
People online seem to have such a fascination with finding every possible thing wrong with American culture. Then they generalize across 330 million people, and completely ignore that the rest of the world has equally incomprehensible or destructive habits.
I guess we should be honored? Nobody bothers criticizing Europeans because Europe is largely irrelevant.
I'm American. I live in America. But I'm posting in a global forum, and I'm addressing something that's very specifically American. I wasn't even necessarily criticizing. Different places have different tastes. But the top soda brands are, Red Bull aside, all American in origin: https://www.zippia.com/advice/largest-soda-brands/
Despite decades of research and hundreds upon hundreds of studies, there's never been a definitive link shown between MSG and its claimed negative effects. In fact, I've seen studies where subjects responded to placebo at a higher rate than they did actual MSG.
Yet it's still very common to run into people that are absolutely convinced they have a sensitivity to MSG despite the fact that all evidence suggests that no such sensitivity actually exists.
Yet it's still very common to run into people that
are absolutely convinced they have a sensitivity to
MSG despite the fact that all evidence suggests that
no such sensitivity actually exists.
Here's a pattern I've seen in at least two people here in America. I suspect it's probably pretty widespread.1. Subject is a person who does not eat Asian/Asian-American food very often
2. Subject eats some Asian/Asian-American food, full of many ingredients they don't typically consume
3. Food does not agree with subject in some way or another
4. Subject then decides it "must be the MSG" when of course it might be just be high sodium content that is common in takeout/delivery food, or any of the other ingredients they don't normally consume, or perhaps they just got some spoiled food or something
The aversion most people have to anything sounding chemical is crazy.
Chemically speaking, this is a relatively simple molecule. „Dipeptide“ means it consists of two amino acids, which are ubiquitous and make up every protein. „Methyl ester“ is the product of a reaction between an acid, in this case the amino acid phenylalanine, and an alcohol, in this case methanol. Also very common throughout chemistry and biology.
For me this can be pretty easily observed eating a meal with water vs with diet soda. Especially if it's like a 'bad' meal with fast/fried food. There is definitely something that causes you to crave/eat more.
Sweeteners won’t make someone overeating stop overeating. But they can be used to lower overall caloric energy intake and reduce cravings as a tool.
What mechanism makes the cravings subside for you? Is it chemical or also like lifting a cigarette to your lips for nicotine?
In comparing reviews of reviews of medical papers, I find myself more swayed by the article. Perhaps you'll have a different take on that part and can provide compelling evidence of why your studies should carry more weight or why the authors conclusion is flawed. I would definitely be interested in a more critical reading of that, since I'm somewhat neutral but may have some biases towards wanting aspartame to be both safe and effective.
"Data from RCTs showed no consistent effects of nonnutritive sweeteners on other measures of body composition and reported no further secondary outcomes"
So let's look at the RCTs.
1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26708700/
"NNS beverages were superior for weight loss and weight maintenance in a population consisting of regular users of NNS beverages who either maintained or discontinued consumption of these beverages and consumed water during a structured weight loss program. These results suggest that NNS beverages can be an effective tool for weight loss and maintenance within the context of a weight management program."
OK, so this found a significant benefit to NNS.
2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26537940/
This study finds that water is superior to to NNS, but does not compare to sugar consumption, which means you can't really draw the broader conclusion that NNS are ineffective in general; they're just less effective than water alone.
3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22301929/
OK this one is annoying because the abstract lumps water and diet beverages together, so we can't just read their conclusion. The full text is available, fortunately:
"All interventions groups showed statistically significant weight losses by 6 mo, but there were no differences between groups."
(In other words, both the diet beverage group and the water group lost about the same amount of weight.)
4. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22205311/
This study is a somewhat odd inclusion, because they're actually examining the reverse question (do sucrose sweetened drinks increase fat storage?), but anyway:
"Daily intake of SSSDs for 6 mo increases ectopic fat accumulation and lipids compared with milk, diet cola, and water. Thus, daily intake of SSSDs is likely to enhance the risk of cardiovascular and metabolic diseases."
The full text is not available for free, but it shows a massive difference in fat storage between sugar and diet drinks (and a much larger difference, in fact, than between sugar drinks and water)
5. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14693305/
"Patients took capsules containing 500 mg stevioside powder or placebo 3 times daily for 2 years."
What on Earth? Why is this study included?
6. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16775813/
"The volunteers selected in this phase were randomly assigned to receive either capsules containing placebo during 24 weeks or crude stevioside 3.75 mg/kg/day (7 weeks), 7.5 mg/kg/day (11 weeks) and 15.0 mg/kg/day (6 weeks)."
Again. Including these trials with the others is simply bizarre.
7. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9022524/
"The aspartame group lost significantly more weight overall (P = 0.028) and regained significantly less weight during maintenance and follow-up (P = 0.046) than did the no-aspartame group."
(I recommend reading the whole abstract; this one is nuanced, but it still shows a significant benefit for the aspartame group).
So what is going on with the systematic review? Why did it come to the exact opposite conclusion of all of its relevant RCTs?
And I say this as someone who cooks with MSG daily.
Yes this has all been said many times.
Plain carbonated water with ice and maybe a few drops of lemon or lime juice is "interesting" enough for me.
Also the taste can vary wildly between sodas, for example coke zero tastes completely different than pepsi max. Both are sweetened with aspartam.
I stopped eating dairy due to allergy when I was 20. And since, I've drank only vegetal "milk" substitutes. Of course by now (I'm 40) they all taste OK and I love my shakes. But if someone who drinks cows milk tries it, it tastes plantly and nothing like a milkshake.
Same thing happens with sweeteners. I stopped using redined sugar to sweeten my morning green tea. I use stevia leaves instead. It doesn't taste "better" or "worse" to me, it just tastes good and I know I dont need to worry. But my wife can taste the stevia flavour. She is just not used to it.
On the flipside, everytime I get into a Starbucks the smell of "cow" (as i jokingly label it) is very strong for me.
People who are quick to dismiss other flavours just havent had the necessity of adapting.
I love Diet Dr. Pepper - not so big on regular Dr. Pepper.
Like almost any substance, a lot of MSG isn’t good for anyone. In the amounts typical for cooking, it’s fine.
What is the impact of 'faking out' the sugar processing components of our metabolism? Specifically is there anything bad associated with our brains thinking that we're getting sugar and some, perhaps incomplete, chain of reactions taking place to prepare the body for sugar processing, and then the sugar never showing up?
I haven't read any of the literature on it but I imagine that some of those metabolic components stay "flipped on" for longer than they would if they had real sugar exposure, because they never get what they are prepared to receive by our brains upon consumption.
Disclosure: my grandfather died of pancreatic cancer and was a heavy consumer of artificial sweeteners (daily, in tea).
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230630-aspartame-what-e...
> According to the US Food and Drug Administration, the acceptable recommended intake for aspartame is up to 50mg per kg of body weight each day, equivalent to the amount in around 19 standard-sized cans of Diet Coke (other brands are available) for the average American woman.
Bottom line of the article above and (1): aspartame is not a health concern you should have.
AFAIK, there was only one study which said aspartame was dangerous: they fed a rat with a HUGE amount of it (like way more than a human could consume, in proportion) and the rat got ill or died I don't remember. That "study" was obviously flawed yet the media kept talking about it everywhere.
At that point, it wouldn't surprise me if the sugar industry is behind this.
Some people have a hard time understanding that this can be impossible.
Instead we have to take out best guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_%22whiskey_s...
There's already plenty of unconscious bias around (I've had experiences of people using my contributions and citing some followup paper from Google or Stanford rather than the paper where the contribution was actually made) without actively legitimizing it.
Even more puzzling, the WHO announcement (https://www.who.int/news/item/15-05-2023-who-advises-not-to-...) explicitly lists essentially every commonly known artificial sweetener, even though the evidence the report cites is extremely uneven and has very little to say about many of them. The studies on long term health effects, in particular, are almost entirely based on studies which examine soft drink consumption. Aside from the obvious, difficult-to-control biases is that approach (e.g. people who drink diet drinks are disproportionately people who are trying to lose weight, are diabetic, have been told to switch by their doctor, etc.), this means that virtually all of the data is primarily about aspartame, since that's the primary sweetener in most diet drinks.
The cherry on top is that the WHO announcement suggests that people try to shift to "naturally occurring sugars" despite the fact that multiple studies cited by the report specifically note that the health impact of fruit juice consumption is not distinguishable from any other sugar consumption.
That said, from my non-expert point of view, the one thing that does seem to be pretty consistent is evidence on gut biome effects. It kind of seems like there's some mechanism involving sweetness itself and gut biome interference, and I'm not sure what's going on there.
But the WHO report is disturbing. A meta-analysis is supposed to pull together large numbers of studies in order to smooth out biases and find broader trends, but what this report seems to have done instead is to launder biases that were reported with integrity. Taken together with the WHO recommendation, a large number of sporadic and often suspicious results have been put together into a wildly sweeping conclusion which does not look to me like it's at all scientifically justified.
I can only guess that this was the thought behind this sentence, if not I'm a bit afraid that somebody with that lack of knowledge is "WHO Director for Nutrition and Food Safety".
In other words, what powerful entity wants us to think aspartame is bad? And why?
Until we know the answers to those questions, we cannot evaluate the significance of the statement.
I found it convincing. My wife did not. She found this far more credible source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8227014/
To summarize:
- Aspartame is linked to premature menarche in girls aged 9 and 10
- Aspartame, especially when used with another common sweetener is linked to genotocixity.
- Aspartame causes increases in behavioral disorders
- Aspartame causes neurodegeneration with long-term use
- Aspartame can induce contact dermatitis
> Safety studies have found the metabolic products of aspartame (aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol) to be more harmful to the body than the original substance itself...
> ...In humans, there have been reports of premature birth as well as allergic reactions and weight gain in the newborns. Studies involving girls aged 9–10 have shown that aspartame increases the risk of an early first menstruation (<11 years).
So for me... I have to think that there remains a high likelihood that aspartame is harmful, and this article draws wrong conclusions.
Like, great, I believe that if you inject those chemicals into me in the right spot I'll be fine. But didn't you skip a few steps?
Not that I care much either way. It sounds like it's safe, toxicologically and epidemiologically speaking. But there's still a difference between eating things that taste sweet and not doing it at all-- beyond the molecules that end up in your blood.
But that doesn't mean no one else should have them.
> Aspartame was discovered in 1965 by James M. Schlatter, a chemist working for G.D. Searle & Company. Schlatter had synthesized aspartame as an intermediate step in generating a tetrapeptide of the hormone gastrin, for use in assessing an anti-ulcer drug candidate. He discovered its sweet taste when he licked his finger, which had become contaminated with aspartame, to lift up a piece of paper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame
But the Washington Post seems to disagree:
> It has been 17 years since chemist James M. Schlatter, who was tinkering with an anti-ulcer drug at the time, dipped his finger into a mixture of asparatic acid and phenylalanine and, for reasons that remain unclear, brought the result into contact with his tongue. Now, after a long legal and scientific struggle, the stuff that was on Schlatter's finger that fateful day in 1965 can be on your finger too, or dissolved in your coffee, or stirred into your yogurt, or sprinkled over your cinnamon toast.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/food/1982/0...
There was a time when reporting the taste of a newly-synthesized organic molecule was not uncommon in the literature. It's possible that Schlatter was just doing something that was not unusual at the time.
An account of the discovery, written by one of the authors of the original research paper reporting the discovery (Mazur), and reportedly based on an affidavit gives this account:
> In December 1965 I was working with Dr. Mazur on the synthesis of the C-terminal tetrapeptide of gastrin. We were making intermediates and trying to purify them. In particular, on an occasion in December, 1965, I was recrystallizing aspartylphenylalanine methyl ester (aspartame) ... when the mixture bumped [spilled over while boiling] onto the outside of the flask. As a result, some of the powder got onto my fingers. At a slightly later stage, when licking my finger to pick up a piece of paper, I noticed a very strong, sweet taste. Initially, I thought that I mush have still had some sugar o. my hands from earlier in the day. However, I quickly realized this could not be so, since I had washed my hands in the meantime. I, therefore, traced the power on my hands back to the container into which I had placed the crystallized apsartyl-phenylalanine methyl ester. I felt that this ... was not likely to be toxic and I therefore tasted a little of it and found that it was the substance which I had previously tasted on my finger.
- Aspartame: Physiology and Biochemistry, edited by Stegink and Filer
Tells you everything about that all important often cited paper
"Dr. John Olney, who founded the field of neuroscience called excitotoxicity, attempted to stop the approval of aspartame with Attorney James Turner back in 1996. The FDA's own toxicologist, Dr. Adrian Gross told Congress that without a shadow of a doubt, aspartame can cause brain tumors and brain cancer and that it violated the Delaney Amendment, which forbids putting anything in food that is known to cause cancer." [0]
[0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-rumsfeld-and-the-s_b_8...
Except, of course, that's contradicted by the subsequent epidemiological evidence and countless studies. And that's ignoring the complete lack of a plausible causal mechanism.
You can dislike Donald Rumsfeld, but that doesn't mean shit about aspartame.