Sad, Tired, and Alone: My Ongoing Battle With Startup Depression | Hacker News Reader

Sad, Tired, and Alone: My Ongoing Battle With Startup Depression

zakhomuth.com

362 pointsliamk96 comments

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but this is one of the most frustrating things I've ever read, as well as many of the comments echoing the author. I do commend you for posting this publicly, that takes guts, but you have to do something about it. If I were your CEO, I'd insist you take a very long break, right now.

You realize you're going to die, in the best case, 70 to 80 years from now, yeah? Likely much sooner with the mental state you just described. This is all very blunt, and probably harsh, but my point is life is short and you only get one shot. I can't believe you'd subject yourself to this, all for a startup, or for the startup lifestyle. I do not mean to belittle what you are passionate about, or the time and effort you've clearly put into your company, but there is more to life than this.

Take a break. Take a very long break (I'm talking a year at least). Go travel, go home, go somewhere, but stop slaving away and sitting in your room for days at a time. Go be around other people, be it family or friends. Find love, and love yourself. You can always pursue your entrepreneurial dreams after you're happy (and your company will benefit from your happiness).

The startup lifestyle is an incredible journey, I'm on a third myself, but if I felt even remotely close to what you just described, I'd quit in an instant. It's not worth that to me, not even close. I'd prefer to be happy, love, be loved, and work in a coffee shop for the rest of my days before I'd trade it for being depressed in the way you describe.

You owe it to yourself to be happy, so quit wasting time.

Thank you. I wish parents taught their kids to 'know when to quit' more often. I've read stories from founders who missed the birth of their children, left their dying parents, sacrificed everything important for some dumb startup that sells shoelaces or soap or diapers. It's one thing to be persistent and another to be delusional. And the best way to find out which one you are, is when you take a step back, clear your mind for a week or two and have a good look at yourself when you're not stimulated on coffee and twitter.

Should I ever have kids -- and I'd like to! -- this would be the only thing in raising them that I wouldn't teach them like my parents taught me: failing is OK. There is always a way to continue and failing just means discovering a "way that didn't work".

My happiness and that of the people around me are the real concerns, everything else I do is just serving those goals.

Life is just another optimization problem.

I agree. While I can have empathy for OP's feelings, when he says he's changing the world with upverter, you can't help but think he's being delusional. It's just a site that shares your mechanical drawings.. let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Your own happiness comes first, not some imaginary customers who want to use your product to make themselves more money, or inject themselves with more dopamine... they don't care about your well-being at all.

That's like saying Facebook is just a site that shares your photos and comments.

Upverter has the potential to make hardware more like software by making it easier to iterate on. That's really cool.

I think this is good advice, but summed up better would be know when to take breaks (maybe 4 a year). Use the depressive episodes as an indicator that your mind and body need a holiday.

He wants it. He wants it so bad. But even when he puts in the work, has the drive, and tries so much success isn't there.

This is the flip side to every multi million dollar exits of some social widget or TechCrunch rah rah bullshit or the stock buyouts of a collapsed firm.

This the reality in the tech game. Not everyone wins. I know this, I felt this, I felt the highs and lows.

But something isn't working. Many point out to trying too much, too hard, psychological, depression, so on so forth. These comments here ring a bit hollow because they dismiss what Zak already wrote. He is a smart cookie, he knows the sickness, he knows the cure. The only remedy is change. Not only change but be brave enough to also accept change. The metaphorical come-to-Jesus moment is nigh.

Then take five minutes and really think about this and see this for what it is. This post has been read over 9000 times--almost a third of all tech workers in the city of San Francisco--and rallied over 80 comments with people even arguing whether suggestions are mean sprited. Meaning: you are not alone.

Others get this, others empathize. Because we are the community that wakes up every morning and want it bad too. That in itself is pretty amazing.

What's the real solution? No one can give you that. It's going to be personal. You're a startup vet. Deep down you know what to do. Success is not a straight line, it's meandering, it's failures, it just is.

Cheers.

Well said. Everyone's formula is different based on their internal and external support structures. I do feel the qualities in a potential solution are more common, than not.

1) It starts and ends with building and maintaining a positive, healthy inner-dialogue. That is the single biggest thing that drags everyone down.

2) Be a friend to yourself. Be a friend to your future self. It's as much about valuing your own journey and time as it is trying to figure it all out. It's not all supposed to be figured out. We have to figure out enough to keep moving, inward, onward, upward.

3) Change is entirely the issue. Instead of changing for the sake of change, we don't pay enough attention to the subtle, but huge fact of whether we're changing for the better.

4) Experiences are worthless if positive lessons aren't learnt. It doesn't matter what anyone does or doesn't do, this axiom I've found to be true anywhere I look. When one gets caught up so haphazardly collecting experiences and not paying attention to "Have I stopped learning or growing positively", we start feeding the weeds as much as the garden.

I don't want to detract from what you wrote by saying much else. I agree with the rest of what you wrote :)

I don't want to be pedantic, but this is not depression. Depression is 6 months without a single high point. Depression is not a roller coaster- there are no ups. Just down. For a long fucking time. I've been depressed off and on for the past 10 years- about 5 depressive periods, each 6-18 months.

I don't want to minimize the OP's struggles- he most certainly has some kind of mood disorder (possibly rapid-cycling bipolar disorder or RBD). There may be depressive episodes involved, but I don't think the word "depression" should be used unless it's referring to Major Depressive Disorder or one of its close siblings.

Again, I'm trying hard to not be pedantic. It just frustrates me when people think that depression is something you can get over, or that will get better in a day or a week. That's just not the case.

Perhaps you should see Bipolar / Manic Depressive disorder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

There are many forms of depression as well as Major Depressive Disorder.

Major episodic depression only has to last two weeks or so to be a clinical episode, but what I read in between the lines is a general dysthymia punctuated by some nasty episodes. But I am not a clinician. :)

I am sympathetic both to your comment, and those replying to it. I think what this suggests is that modern psychiatry does not have a rich enough understanding of the enormous variety of mood disorders involving depressed states. If it did, we'd probably have less confusing names for them.

I don't think one can say he obviously has a mood disorder. I have been running my own business for 8 years, and I can tell you while it isn't the same thing, it is tough. There are times when you get tired and you just want to lie down and rest but you can't.

It can be brutal sometimes. And we all have episodes. Sometimes I will lose a few days to one. But you stand back up and soldier through as soon as you can.

I have worked for other people and I have worked for myself, and this is something I only have experienced while self-employed. It is the flip side of being master of one's own destiny--- that is a heavy burden to bear sometimes.

I have never become suicidal or anything due to being self-employed. I HAVE had episodes that have cost me projects, money, time, and all sorts of other things.

This isn't something that can be medicated away. Even vacations don't help that much. It just requires constantly assessing balance in addition to everything else.....

> depression is something you can get over,

Just want to point out that mild to moderate[1] depression respond well to cognitive behaviour therapy. A typical course lasts 8 weeks, but can be up to 14 weeks.

Severe depression can respond well to CBT, especially if there's other stuff (other forms of long term therapy, sometimes medication) in place.

I only say this because it's important for people who feel they are depressed to know that they're not necessarily going to be out of work for months or on weird medications for years. (Indeed, there's plenty of research showing that work is useful and not working is harmful.)

I agree there's a big difference between a carefully crafted course of therapy and an attitude of "just get over it" / "pull your socks up" / "stiff upper lip".

[1] Mild and moderate are not trivial; they can have big impacts on the life of the person with them and the people around them.

I've struggled with it on & off for about 20 years. In the last 3 years I've found Zoloft works remarkable well for me. I'd tried other SSRIs in the past but didn't get much out of them.

Also, for the fatigue, my psych diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue and put me on some vitamins and supplements. I have never felt more energetic in my life. Adrenal fatigue is a common side effect of stress and my doctor says it's really common among entrepreneurs.

Some thoughts:

Mood stabilizers are not an appropriate first(SSRI), second(tricyclic), or even third line(MAOI) treatment for depression.

Your idea that you need to be sad to be happy is common among people who suffer from depression. But being depressed isn't 'part of the roller coaster'. You most certainly can have the highs without the lows...except if you're on mood stabilizers which work wonders at taking away both.

What's most concerning to me is that you credit your depression with so much of your accomplishments and motivation. There is absolutely no honor in suffering. That's just you buying in to a narrative. I feel happy when I've accomplished something. Other days I feel moderately happy and driven to accomplish something. No depression necessary.

And yes, I suffered from severe depression for years but would prefer not to discuss it publicly ;).

As someone who has been in the same place, I agree completely. My reaction to SSRIs was first a minor euphoria (just bubbly but a bit numb) and ever since then I have been, well, normal.

Zak, what you're saying is true, up to a certain point. Life has lows, because sometimes, it just fucking sucks. However, you don't and can't see the difference between a low and depression. They are worlds apart. Please, please, give medicine another chance.

What I have found is that you need to separate your personal worth from your startup/professional worth. Do not derive your personal identity from your startup. Although it is easier said than done, but you don't have a choice.

Are you doing anything outside of your startup? Like learning a new language, getting into Art/Movie clubs or travelling?

Seconded - while a founder pretty much lives and breathes startup, having a retreat once so often helps great not only in de-stressing, it grounds you and realigns yourself to the world.

Some times when ya got a memory leak you just gotta reboot the comp and start fresh and clean. Good luck from Palo Alto, CA.

Good advice. It's amazing how we manage to convince ourselves that we arent human, and forget that we need to move around, smell, feel and see new things, talk to other people, eat relaxed meals, walk around, etc. We are animals, and I mean that in a good way. Only a small part of our brain is "rational"... Make sure you keep the rest of it happy too!

I'm in the same boat, and honestly it is comforting to see things like this. I feel like seeing that others are in the same place and struggle with the same things makes me feel like I can get over it too.

I do almost the exact same things as well - massive weight gain, HUGE sleep problems (to the point where I end up going to sleep as the sunrise, sleeping all day), lack of exercise, avoiding friends/gatherings, etc. I haven't left my apartment in 4 days now.

All of this while running a semi-successful (to the point where it pays my bills) consumer facing service company. It is difficult. It's difficult when I can't bring myself to answer the phone, call someone back, or give them an update on an order.

I have history of severe mental illness in my family, and it is actually a bit of a motivator to think of them. The family member in particular literally has spent 10-12 years trying to have a normal life while sleeping 12-18 hours a day, heavily medicated, in and out of hospitals (easily half the year in the hospital, for the past 15+ years), and 100+ ECT treatments. I don't want to be that. I don't want to get that far, and it pushes me to pick up that damn phone or send that email. I know that is a bit twisted, but it works for me. I don't want to hit that low. Oddly enough, any time I've ever seriously contemplated suicide, I've stopped precisely because I know what it would do to this person - I can't imagine bringing that much pain to my family and making them go through that. I don't know if they could handle it. I've had the unfortunate experience of walking in on a suicide attempt and driving their blood covered body to the hospital, and I know the way I felt there is nothing I would ever put someone through, no matter how much I wanted to.

I also have literally zero interest in talking about it - which is tough, but I know the first reaction from my family would be medication, and I absolutely refuse.

I'm rambling now, but that's probably good. Interesting what you'll say on a throwaway that you'd never dare with your name attached.

why even use a throwaway? I don't understand why people do this. It seems very ego-centric to think people really really care/judge you if you post something like this. People are mostly preoccupied with themselves - they'll think about your troubles for a day, but not a minute more.

I've often read that is a correlation between bipolar and starting up a company: "the highs are higher, the lows are lower." (Which tends to cause which is academic.)

Here's what I've discovered: the highs are far more dangerous than the lows. The highs are good, whether they're based on real-world success, or your invisible fuel, the die-hard belief in what you're pursuing. You need those highs: milk them for all their worth.

But what goes up, must come down. Whether based on a real setback, or a stray negative thought, it doesn't take much to send you back down to earth, or straight through to hell. When the confidence evaporates, suddenly those unpleasant realities you were dismissing all hit you at once, and it's too much to deal with.

Everything you mentioned is great for riding out depression: sleep, a good meal, exercise, relaxation. You've got the treatment covered quite well. But after you bounce back, pay attention to that "winning" feeling, and work on moderating it to just the level you want, so that it can burn for longer, and you have less far to fall. Keep spending time on basic human needs, even when you're on top and you feel capable of 18-hour days.

Ideally, you want a steady engine, not bursts of up and down. But those will still happen sometimes; roll with it, forgive yourself, ride it out, and keep moving. Good luck!

(This is just a bit of awareness I picked up about myself; your mileage may vary.)

1. Eat slow burning carbs. This has the double effect of forcing you to eat slower[ie you will eat less] and giving you a longer lasting energy.

2. Eat foods that will enhance dopamine: banana, avocado, almond nuts, ginseng, tangerine, red clover.

3. Keep away from food you are allergy too.

4. 10 minutes of exercise can get endorphins pumping but for a good kick, look for like 20mins. [You might struggle to get your first 10mins in but push through]

5. Give friends a call[maybe even by cam], better yet visit them.

6. Go get three massages[consecutive days] or ask a friend to give you a hand massage.

7. Cinnamon and Honey Tea. Mix a teaspoon of cinnamon and honey in hot water[about a cup]. Cinnamon and Honey both have anti-bacterial properties and strengthen the immune system.

I concur that diet and general physical well-being, as well as social interactions, do indeed matter very much, and apparently heavily influence in often not obvious ways our mood and outlook.

Whilst I'm sure all these suggestions may help to some extent, none of them address the underlying issues. This isn't something that can be cured by vitamin pills or bike rides. The only solution is a complete lifestyle change which the author admits he can't make at the minute.

My worry is that well meant suggestions like the above may sound flippant to someone in the depths of depression (I'd frankly be upset if I told someone I was depressed and they told me to get a massage). I guess the best short-term suggestion is just to talk to someone about it.

Good luck to both the poster and anyone else going through similar troubles.

I agree that such tone and lack of justification might sound a bit off-putting—I left grandparent trying to soften that impression. (Add: Although I like chegra's post for its practicality. If you follow that advice, there's a very high change you will feel better no matter what.)

However, your statement about ‘underlying issues’ is confusing. You don't name these, yet claim that they can't be cured by certain methods. I wonder what, in your opinion, these issues are.

I think they often are just these—bad diet and physical shape, lack of social interaction. And bike rides can help that (especially considering mostly sedentary lifestyle).

Although there's another important thing that may be an issue, which you actually reminded me about. It's hard to communicate what it is—maybe it could be called ‘mental shape’.

My latest depression basically ended when I learned to allow my mind to rest, and gained some control over my thoughts. I often see studies now suggesting that our well-being inversely depends on how much we think. I have an impression at the moment that certain brain activity (which is related to abstract thinking and appears to happen somewhere in frontal lobe) does indeed contribute to feeling unhappy, that being in ‘flow’ reduces that activity, and that trying to do multiple things at once / frequent context switching increases that activity.

Anyway, since that depression I still experience difficult periods sometimes, but I think they are mostly health-induced. We shouldn't underestimate how physical problems can influence our thinking. E.g., you can eat food that you're unknowingly allergic to, it will make you feel constantly tired, therefore forcing you to spend most of your time at home, the consequences of which (lack of sunlight / movement, for two) can cause yet another host of problems, and so on.

To sum up, my supported by anecdotal evidence, layman speculations, and personal experience opinion is that depression is often caused by being, probably unknowingly, out-of-shape mentally (i.e., overthinking) and/or physically (bad diet, other health problems).

I hope OP will feel better soon. Being out to a coffee-shop is already good, keep it up!

> I guess the best short-term suggestion is just to talk to someone about it.

Research shows that "just talking about it" is not effective for depression and most other mental health problems. There are effective talking therapies.

I really respect you for taking the leap and talking about it. This is not an easy decision to make, particularly for folks like me who trend towards stoicism, even at the best of times.

It can be excrutiatingly painful to talk about that which everyone knows, but keeps quiet. In doing so, you not only help yourself resolve your issues, but also allow those who come after you to get a more honest lay of the land, and more ably deal with the challenges that await them.

For that, I salute you.

Thanks.

The state of HN: a lot of unqualified people giving idiotic advise to someone who needs professional help.

this. psychiatric issues, in whatever form they may present, are (a) not really diagnosable from a blog post and (b) often treatable and result in a good quality of life. go and seek professional help. get a referral from a medical professional, not friends or family.

"Eat slow burning carbs"... seriously?

Stop drinking and any recreational drugs immediately.

You need to be having fun doing your startup or you won't be able to succeed and should do something else. So if you're spending most of your time writing code, try to make it fun again. If you can't then I recommend the following:

Go and get a physical job for a few months, preferably somewhere rural. It will remind you what real hard work is like, get you physically fit and give you the satisfaction of having achieved something tangible at the end of your day. Come back when you're ready.

I like this advice (physical work) and its been in the back of my mind for a while as a way to take a break from the continuous onslaught of pressure to 'keep up' with developments in my craft and to give me time to consolidate what I have learnt in the last 15 year sprint.

One of the things that has helped me when I had more than normal of these episodes was to reserve a few hours a day to do something completely different. If I was writing software, the other side might be gardening, or studying history.

dude I deal with this shit literally every day. I've spent a ton of time studying what can be done, and lately I've decided to use my skills as a web developer/startup guy to build a tool that can (hopefully) really help people like you and I.

Please email me (if OP is reading this, or anyone else who wants to discuss this) at admin@serpiq.com and I'll share what I'm planning. If you're a rails guy, we can even collaborate on the project (even if you're not, we can figure something out).

EDIT: To add some more to this, don't give up on drugs just yet. I've been taking Prozac for the last few months and it's made a HUGE difference for me. Not saying it's the right drug for you necessarily, but definitely experiment with different options (legally experiment). For instance, I was on Lexapro a few years ago and it royally screwed up my stomach and didn't fix anything.

Glad to see people suggesting exercise (spacefood, chaostheory, juliano_q, others), as well as other tools to change the underlying depression. I think the important takeaway is that this is not "startup depression" -- it's depression. You'll be happier/more successful if you find a way to get rid of it.

Sure, running a startup is going to have ups and downs. Sure, you'll sometimes fail at what you're trying to do, and you'll sometimes feel that failure deeply. Failing comes from trying to do something really difficult; taking that failure personally comes from being human.

But as a general rule, the founders I know from the (pretty hoppin') Boston scene are born optimists. More than any other group of people I know, they believe despite the odds, they bounce back quickly, and they have pretty tough skins.

Depression is hard to sort out, but totally worth it. It's worth it for anybody, but necessary for founders because of the up & down nature of running a startup. I spent much of my adult life beating my head against a wall, occasionally being depressed, and not understanding why I couldn't make sh*t happen. Then a few years ago I figured myself out (combination of exercise, gratitude, & therapy), and since then everything has been different. Externally, my life took a major turn for the better in every arena from relationships to finances. Internally, I just don't have the resistance I used to really suffer from, and my downs are pretty short. It rocks.

So I guess I feel your pain, but don't glorify it. Do the work to get over it. You'll be much happier.

You are viewing life through gloom filled lenses. It doesn't have to be this way.

I have been working alone/startups for about 3 years when I quit my last job. I was majorly depressed for over 3 years without realizing it, because on the surface it seemed like I had "the good life" (vacationing every 2-3 months, a bunch of friends, great income, etc) but everything I tried was sluggish, I felt demotivated and alone. Only when I checked myself into cognitive therapy did I realize how bad things were upstairs.

Over the years I built up all these inaccurate beliefs in myself and others without correcting them and letting them run rampant. I dedicated 2 hours a day in reading and practicing exercises + 1 hr / week cognitive behavioral therapy sessions for about 6 months, and it is by far the best investment I have spent. While they can't fix your problems so that you will never be depressed again, but it definitely helps you realize when you are thinking inaccurately, showing warning signs of depression, and things to help you cope.

If you can not afford therapy, then I suggest reading the book recommended by my therapist, "feeling good" by david burns. It helped me a lot more than any advice from parents, friends, strangers on the internet ever did.

You're welcome to reach out to me if you have any questions.

Can we give him some feedback and advice on Upverter so he can take it to the next level?

I think it's an interesting site. But I'm not sure a subscription model is the way to go. I do know R&D teams are gonna have a hard time getting permission to use it. They have all the tools they need, their projects are secret, it's not going to fly with upper management.

I do like the fact that you can search for components and buy them. I'm sure there's some affiliate revenue in there. Although I have to say, it's probably not that easy, because companies usually have long-term agreements in place with suppliers, there's a lot of bureaucracy, you have to get a purchase order before you're allowed to buy something. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but that's usually the way it is. And it's a problem for Upverter.

Getting PCBs manufactured is a good idea as well, especially for people who use Kickstarter and want to build a prototype. The companies I know might be hesitant to use it. Especially for R&D projects, they will use their own equipment or outsource it to a local supplier they know they can trust. And this guy is going to say it's gonna cost you x, but I can do it cheaper if you let me manufacture the first 10,000 units. And it gets really tricky when you're working on a cutting edge product, because you can't always buy every component off the shelf. The manufacturer is gonna say ok, I'm gonna help you but I can't buy component x cheap enough, or I'm gonna help you but you have to ship me component a,b,c before day x.

The design of your site looks really good but you need photographs of products that have been build. You may not care about that but if you're going after the Kickstarter market, then you're in the business of making dreams come through. You need to appeal to the senses.

Zak. Please listen to me. I suffer depression, but you know what has helped me immensely? Lifting HEAVY weights.

Give it a try. Lift HEAVY weights for at least 4-5 days a week, and make it the absolute NUMBER ONE PRIORITY in your life for that month.

Closely monitor how you feel, and how your mind thinks during that month.

Try this ASAP Zak. It will IMPROVE YOUR LIFE.

P.S. Sorry if I come off as a spazz. I just really believe in what I'm saying.

Are you following any specific program?

If you want an excellent program for beginning weight training, look into Starting Strength developed my Mark Rippetoe.

No specific program, but I'm focusing on squats, dead lifts, bench press and shoulder presses (in that order). I'm lifting close to my one rep max, so my rep ranges are lower, 5-6 reps per set. No junk reps. Go heavy or go home.

Hope that helps.

I see startup depression as a sort of cost of the lifestyle. If your existence depends on the success of your own project, this can be an enormous weight to bear. If you have a bad day, it can easily turn into a bad week if you're not careful.

For me, when things aren't going my way, I just say, "Fuck it" and move on to the next problem. You're are going to lose sometimes, but who cares? You're going to win.

If sheer willpower doesn't work, I usually exercise and clean my apartment. The point is to secure little victories here and there to get you motivated. I can definitely say that doing the dishes and pumping out some push-ups have been the catalysts for some great ideas in the past.

At the end of the day everyone is experiencing some sort of depression every once and while. At least you're doing something awesome. Most people aren't. Remember that.

Wow, there's so much one could say on this subject. I'd post a lengthier response, but I don't have time right now, so I'll just say this:

Startup depression (hell, depression in general) is a serious problem. And while I'm no doctor or psychiatrist or anything, to the extent that just a "friendly ear to bend" can be useful, I offer myself up as such, to anybody dealing with depression. I've struggled with it myself to some extent, so I know what it's like. By all means, feel free to email me, call me, whatever, if you're ever feeling down and need somebody to talk to. If you happen to be in or near the RTP, NC area, we can meet in person over a coffee/beer/dinner whatever.

Also, if you're looking for other startup minded folks in this area to socialize with, definitely ping the RTP Hackers and Founders mailing list.

If you have a depression you need help. Talk to your doctor, and don't dismiss the assistance of drugs. Also exercising is known to help against depression.

If you have any kind of trouble with depression the first thing you should always check is that you exercise and eat right. It really makes a huge difference. You may also need to experiment with different drugs to find one that works for you but you're wasting your time if you don't exercise. EXERCISE!

I was reading that 30 min of exercise 3 times a week is one of the most successful therapies for depression available. It doesn't mean that some people don't still need medication on top of that, but starting with the exercise (preferably something like getting out and, say, walking out-doors) is good, as is attention to diet.

I have always found that the fastest way to get out of a funk is to talk. Guess you have already started by sharing on HN. If possible, do the same thing in real life. Just get a friend and tell him/her all these things and maybe you will get a hug. A hug always helps :)

Hi,

Thanks for writing this, it's a brave and open and honest thing to do where people are afraid of doing those things. At a certain point, we have to get over what others think and get to figuring out what we think, and how it should be.

I believe a person does whatever they do to find a certain amount of peace in themselves and their lives.

I'd like to share some scraps I've scraped together on finding, and keeping a positive and healthy inner-dialogue and energy. This discipline has helped me more than any education, talent, skill that I have. It fuels them all. The below is not perfect, no one is perfect, there is no perfection to attain, only better discipline.

I put the pursuit of a better-self like taking a shower, I have to remind myself daily, in my words that have meaning to me, or my energy will stink.

Every action, every choice we take is ultimately geared at getting to a peaceful flow, focused and purposeful.

Whether the actions are dietary, physical, sensory, emotional, mental input, all aim at getting a neurological hit of the great peace that comes from great understanding / accomplishment.

Deep, meaningful, fulfilling, satisfying, lasting peace and contentment that fuels us forward. Soak that idea up.

The thing is, the things we pursue to find this peace / flow / focus / presence in the present / attention don't provide it. The things that we need to do (build healthy habits and discipline to over-ride and reset us when we're in a rut), we don't build enough muscles of.

Strengthening weaknesses and weakening what we need our strengths to be doesn't work, and ends up feeding the monster of ineffectualness. Sounds easy enough to understand, but pay attention to what you say, do, and say you do and increase the discipline of consistency between those three.

Whenever I look around me and say this sucks, it's usually because everything around me is moving, and I'm not.

My most favorite reminder; Keep moving. Inward, onward, upward.

A lot of folks take logical thinking to the extreme of building so many doubts that they seem so insurmountable that they lose the spark of possibility in themselves. They then turn to spreading their belief in the insurmountability of their doubts by helping others doubt themselves, partially to validate the fact that their own doubts were insurmountable. I call this spreading confusion and doubt. Everyone does it, some worse than others.

Filters and finding doubts in something are really important. Having it be the only way you see life fuels imbalance.

I like living in possibility and creativity, more than doubt and elimination of possibility. So I try to stay there more, than doubt.

Consider if a lack of peace comes from trying to understand something with our mind when we should be trying to understand it with our heart, or our gut, or vice versa. A lot of pain happens here and wears anyone down.

If something is becoming a zombie like experience, throw a wrench into it. Change your perspective. Get out, Get away, change it up. Instead of fuelling doubts in a negative downward spiral, learn, and then remember to hit the reset button to start fuelling possibility and forever spiral upward.

What if, instead of why not. How can, instead of how can't. The mind is amazing. It will see what you want, connection, or disconnection, relation, or unrelatedness and deliver time and time again.

I'm a big fan of logic. I'm a bigger fan of awareness and understanding, which isn't black and white, but a lot of colours that make up the picture.

If we don't like what we see, change how we see it. It's all there.

Our dominant world viewpoint is the true religion through which we see and process the world inside, and outside of us.

A threatened person lives in a threatening world. A scared person lives in a scary world. An untrustworthy person lives in an untrusting world. A trusting person lives in a trusting world.

Prolonged visits in one ups or downs aren't productive, or fun. I pick centered, serene, calm, focus over ups or downs any day and try to saturate my life with it. Reminders all around me.

Why peace? It's the closest to the flow. We keep getting what we've been getting, when we keep what we've been doing. If we don't want what we have, we have to change what we're doing. It's important to work on your awareness of your awareness, and your awareness of your thinking to catch it.

The main culprit; thinking. We aren't supposed to figure things out before we do them all the time, or where would the journey and discovery of ourselves be? All we can work on is developing the best mindset for the journey and head in the best direction we know how.

It's too easy to get into a cycle of analysis paralysis. Of trying to understand everything to the end, before doing anything.

For me, I tend to notice thinking rarely solves problems worth solving. Problems worth solving come from going on the path of experiencing them, not staying in them,and going through them.

Let me know what you like, or don't.

0.02

Keep moving. Inward, onward, upward.

An absolute gem. If there is something I could possibly add to this wonderful summary, it'd be to further stress the importance of peace in our lives.

I am yet to really experience a startup first-hand but have had a strong bipolar commotion only recently. I really can connect with what Zak feels and no amount of persuasion can repel that feeling of emptiness.

When you go through the lows it's hard not to get hit by the enormity of it all. You begin to see just how puny an existence you truly are. And at the same time how lucky to have all those people who are there for you no matter what. Deep gratitude overwhelms you.

I don't think I can add much about fighting startup depression though I wish to share this one thing I came to learn. And that is that peace cannot be bought. You have to earn it. And that success does not cut it. You have to let go of things that hold you back.

Happiness is essentially a habit. Fall in love again. Do crazy things. Life is hard and startups harder. But kudos to friends that make the gloomy bits easier to handle. :)

Thanks, that was the one reminder I gave myself for a few years.

Contemplating and realizing the puny existence we live is truly emancipating, we're free to be free and create. What a gift.

I don't think there is a 'startup' depression, just not paying attention to your thoughts, actions to see if it's getting us what we want in a lasting and fulfilling way. If we get into a rut and aren't paying attention, that rut gets bigger, wider, deeper.

Discipline and paying attention are 2 skills that are so important and ones I fight to keep improving every day.

This is very wise advice. Have you ever heard of Ken McLeod, the Buddhist teacher? Your essay reminds me of him.

Every time I visit HN I become a little bit more interested in Buddhism.

I read the Tao Te Ching, check it out. An Open Heart by the Dalai Lama is a great general read, as well.

Both are not overtly, or covertly spiritual but definitely provide anyone food with thought.

Hi, I haven't heard of Ken McLeod, but I'll look him up. I like reading.

I'm not a Buddhist per say, I did go through my Dalai Lama phase and saw him speak in person.. but we should be able to learn from every great teaching.

Universal truths exist in all great writings, spiritual, or not, and it's up to us to subdue our ego to learn to take the good from everything with our so called open-mindedness. Doubt really is the enemy.

I should have added one thing: My problems aren't unique, nor are my thoughts unique. No one's are. Very little thought or problems are unique or though about for the first time.

Man has been trying to figure their shit out for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Their journeys exist in books.

IF with our our ego we feel we have to locate and connect all the dots ourselves, so be it. But, not everyones doing this at the same time, or on the same page, or see the same picture from connecting their dots.

Too often we feel we don't have a single soul to talk to, and my words are more to reach anyone feeling that. It's not right.

All of this begins with an always growing and improving relationship with ourselves, fuelled by curiosity.

Are there Ken McLeod essays I should check out first? Feel free to email :)

The emphasis on peace and on understanding and connecting to problems through experience rather than logic and doubt is what reminded me of him. He hasn't written much about these things, they come up more in his talks for long-time students. They're in A Trackless Path somewhere, for instance:

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/category/retreats/a-trackless-...

but that's approximately 25 hours of audio, and I can't pin it down more precisely that. (But the whole thing is good, and a concrete approach to the desiderata you outlined.)

Of his essays, probably the most conceptually interesting is his series on karma as an evolutionary process.

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/karma-genesis-conditions/0

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/karma-growth/0

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/karma-two-approaches/0

"A threatened person lives in a threatening world. A scared person lives in a scary world. An untrustworthy person lives in an untrusting world. A trusting person lives in a trusting world."

plenty of gems in there, but this one takes the cake. I've been trying to verbalize this exact thought for a while. tnx.

Glad it was of use to you.

Some might roll their eyes at some of what I wrote, but every 'gem' was something I learnt the hard way.

It's kind of weird, I feel like I shared more of myself in that post than any other on HN, lol.

This message is for @paraschopra.

I'm sorry your link got downvoted and killed, it shouldn't have been.

I hope this reaches you: What I wrote isn't hokey self help. It's also not blind faith or following.

We can't know HOW to pursue peace, or discipline in our lives, without first learning WHY.

That's the first change that sets up the rest. Learning to understand peace, and discipline is vital to turning on the light bulb that will let you see your path forward.

I'm not hurt or anything by what you said. But, I am not sure if you were consciously aware of how you just spread doubts instead of clarity yourself.

You didn't offer an alternative, a process, or anything yourself. And I think everyone is capable of that.

I appreciate you doubt what I'm speaking about. Feel free to email me, I will talk to you forever about this, most important, topic in my life.

Over and above my work in life, becoming the most I can by learning about myself is my life's true work.

I'm dead serious. I don't believe in hokey self help shit either.

We all have a compass inside of us, maybe our heart. Finding, learning to read, and follow that compass using our mind and gut is our goal. It's not all logical, or we would be able to think our way out of whatever we get into :)

Speaking as a straight male:

Surround yourself with beautiful women; it's hard to get sad around beautiful women. I'm no stranger to the darkness, and I know that in some environments, I feel everyday, just as you do.

Force a change, go somewhere else. I found SV to be beautiful, but how long can you really stay in a male-dominated atmosphere, and still stay sane/happy? I know this sounds really shallow, but pause for a moment and think about it. Regardless of what's logical, sometimes you need to surrender to your base instincts - especially when you're dealing with illogical, irrational emotions.

Surround yourself with beautiful women; it's hard to get sad around beautiful women.

If you actually do this, you may find that you'll be sad in a way that you never expected before. Fantasies unexpectedly realized are emptied of their purpose and become just another form of unsatisfactory reality.

That depends on personality. Many artists found looking or spending time with beautiful woman their way to achieve something otherwise they couldn't. They were their "inspiring thing". While to others, its a distraction from higher goals. So, his advice may work 50/50.

"Surround yourself with beautiful women; it's hard to get sad around beautiful women."

If this was true there would be no depression in Hollywood. This is not the case.

there's some truth to this but I'd word it as: get some affection, and touch. Many times when ppl are depressed, we just are missing love.

Surround yourself with beautiful women; it's hard to get sad around beautiful women.

As a fellow straight male, I sort of agree and disagree with this. First, you make it sound awfully easy, when that's not necessarily the case. "Surround yourself with beautiful women" is not necessarily as easy as "Tune this JBossMQ messaging system to deliver 10000 messages / hour to the consumers." Plenty of hacker/geek types are a lot better at the latter than the former.

But maybe the bigger issue is that women (or men, to the women out there) can be the cause of as much sadness as happiness. Meeting someone, spending time with them, starting to develop an emotional connection with them, and then having the relationship blow up in your face, is extremely depressing. In my personal experience, some of the most depressed times in my life have involved women. Now sure, there's a mindset of "have plenty of women in your life, don't get emotionally attached to any one, be a player," etc. But even if you want that (and not everybody would), it's a big investment of time, energy, etc. to achieve that lifestyle. And that is, in turn, time taken away from your startup. Even more to the point, some people may feel the need to achieve startup success, before they feel like they can achieve "opposite sex" success. There's a lot of self-image stuff involved in our interactions with the opposite sex, ya know?

Anyway, if there's a point to all this rambling, it's to say "Sure, women are good, but happiness isn't as easy as an offhand comment to 'have more women in your life.'"

Yep...know how you feel bud. Thanks for sharing out loud.

I want to add one additional suggestion. I think lack of light and Seasonal Affective Disorder gets mixed into the normal startup depression quite frequently. It's never surprising to me when people feel depressed during winter months. The lack of light, lack of vitamin D—it contributes heavily.

Now, the OP mentioned this is a once-a-quarter pattern, so S.A.D is clearly not the only thing at play. But I would be willing to bet that it contributes.

For those that know me, I'm a huge evangelist of light products to solve insomnia. In the winter, these same light products solve for S.A.D. My old post on insomnia has lots of good links: http://www.humbledmba.com/become-a-morning-person-how-to-end...

My new favorite light product is the NatureBright Per 3 (http://www.amazon.com/NatureBright-PER3-Deluxe-Light-Therapy...). It's well worth a try.

Whatever you buy, make sure it provides minimum 5000 lux and that you use it at least 30 minutes a day.

And finally— Regardless of all this, props to you for writing a wonderfully authentic post. And it's already quite obvious with the comments here that you are not alone. Keep at it.

Interesting - the person in my comment below does use this with the S.A.D lights. I also remember seeing hats/visors that do this as well, if that may be a bit easier for your work/movement.

They also moved to Florida for months at a time, which seems to help as well. Not exactly practical for many of course.

If you're an introvert and charge your batteries by being alone, then find a way to do that without worrying about your day-to-day stresses. For me if I'm getting too zonked out, I end up in StarCraft II pissing myself off by playing with newbs - but it's different enough that it gets my mind off of work.

If you're an extrovert and charge your battery by interacting with others, make sure you do enough of that by going out to events, networking, listening to other founders' stories. Personally I'm a little of both and I find that when I'm out meeting with other startups and listening to their issues, throwing out ideas to help them makes me happier and charges my battery. In a way, it's my version of charity work but getting inspired by solving different problems for others work for me.

As a founder of a few startups myself, I do go through similar cycles where I'd work myself to death for about 3 months and then have 3 months of absolute laziness/depression where I want to do nothing but space out. I'm okay with it cause I know if something motivates me, I usually snap out of my funk. You mentioned you've been in this cycle for awhile, maybe try thinking of something completely different, something inspiring, or maybe go see someone about it.

Good luck!

I can only sympathize, I'm on the end of a 3-year product development cycle myself and it hasn't always been easy.

Some tips from my own experience:

1. Focus more on all the positive things that will happen when you succeed than thinking of all the bad things that will happen if you dont. It's easy to imagine all kinds of worst case scenarios, especially when your plagued by a a little doubt. Try to have faith and power through

2. Exercise! Trite as it might sound exercise is really important for mental well being and can lift your spirits if you're feeling down

3. Surround yourself with people that give you energy. Now I'm not saying you should only socialize with sycophants and yay-sayers but some people can be a real drain on a persons motivation.

4. Embrace "the fear". So things are hard, you're not sure you going succeed. On the other hand, you can probably look back at similar times in your life which now seems like exciting learning experiences. Realize that you're in the middle of one of those and chose be excited about it.

4. Don't let other people bring you down. Those who says it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it. Some good ideas are only evident in hindsight so don't listen too much to the naysayers.

5. Get some perspective, even if things can seem bad and insurmountable I'm sure we all can imagine people who do everything for the same oppurtunity or people with far worse problems.

6. Adopt an attitude of every mistake being an learning opportunity. Don't be angry at yourself for making them. Be glad that it didn't take you longer to find out your mistake and glad that youre wiser for it

It's taken me a long time to learn this - but the times where you don't feel like exercising are precisely the times I need to exercise.

OP - I'm sad that you had such a bad experience with meds, and I'm sad that experience makes you not trust doctors. You should be in control of any medication you take, and if it has bad side-effects your doctor should be willing to change meds.

Please may I make some suggestions? I have no medical training, and it's a good idea to talk to doctors.

1) Make a "rainy day action plan" and give it to someone you trust. This would have a list of signs that things are not going well (either too high or too low) and that you might need some help. It would include a list of things to do, and people to contact, when you do need help. It would also include any "Advance Directives" (written instructions for clinicians about your future treatment) I don't know if they exist in your country, but they're a strong and useful tool in the UK.

2) Consider regular vigorous exercise. There's plenty of evidence that good exercise helps lift moods. Be careful when you're feeling up that you do not over-exercise.

3) Consider being very careful with the amount of alcohol you drink. Alcohol depresses mood. Sometimes people feel the effect for a day or so after drinking even a small amount. This is especially important if you're drinking alone. (The UK has the concept of "units" for public health about drinking. If you're drinking more than 21 units a week, without 48 hour breaks after a heavy drink session, you may be risky for physical harm)

4) Consider being careful with caffeine. Some people feel the affect more strongly than others.

5) Consider "sleep hygiene". Sleep is often disturbed with mood disorders. Sleep hygiene is the first line treatment. Then you could try CBT for sleep disorders if you can find it. Otherwise a short course of a z drug may help kick you back into a sleep rhythm.

A bit OT but I just have to say that I'm ridiculously impressed with Upverter.

I've been in the same situation for years. Skimmed the article, but I get it.

Here's what I do:

1) I have a social life even if I "should" be working. I have people over for dinner several times a week and have regular friend dates, often with other entrepreneurial folk who don't have day jobs.

2) I rock climb several times a week and do yoga and a short workout daily so I keep fit. I also eat well, drink lots of water and avoid sugar. (Drinking water and avoiding sugar is THE KEY to avoiding depression. So easy to spot the cause and effect when I fall off the wagon.)

3) I consult part time, now primarily with another startup, working out of their office. Gives me the cash to pay someone to help me with my startup so I'm not working alone, reminds me of how useful I am instead of feeling like a failure for making the mistakes I made with my own startup, and keeps me socialized and energized.

4) I take mini-vacations. Mostly local music festivals and short camping trips to get me out and connected to nature. Hell, that reminds me, I'm going to go buy some winter gear and go!

Your psychological position is negatively affecting your ability to function. This is by definition a psychological disorder.

Let me state it clearly: it is extremely unlikely that your depression has anything to do with "startups" or your work life.

Quitting your job might be a good idea, but only insofar as it will free up time for you to focus on getting treatment. In and of itself, quitting your job won't solve your problem.

Paradoxically, the reason you're so miserable is likely tied to the fact that you love what you're doing so much, or put another way, that you're doing just what you want to be doing.

Get help. If you don't, you're never going to feel better even if everything goes perfectly in your professional life.

I wholeheartedly suggest a combination of diet and exercises (many can be made at home). I recently discovered Nerd Fitness, a blog directed to nerds that is getting some attention (Steve Kamb, the man behind it, gave talks to Google and FB) and it is pretty much changing my life.

I am not saying that this is the cure, but from my experience with depression I think that much of it is related to physical activity and general welfare. And a good diet (paleo works very well for me) and fitness can help a lot.

http://nerdfitness.com/blog/2012/02/23/a-newbies-guide-to-ne...

There seems to be a lot of people here going through some of the same feelings, I know I have. Sometimes you just lose yourself when you're working on something you want to win. I know I've needed to take a step back and get myself back together at times. A lot of people have suggested eating right, exercising, and taking a break, which I find helps quite a bit to restart the mind and body. We're sort of like engines and if we don't get a proper oil change once in a while, we'll have trouble starting up. So keep an eye on your mileage and if a refill doesn't work, you might need to see a mechanic.

You may be sad and tired, but you're not alone.

http://rondam.blogspot.com/2011/11/it-gets-better-geek-versi...

Hey Man, Thanks for writing this. Depression is tough, and putting it out there for the world to see makes it even tougher. Hang in there. You have been through this, so you know things will get better. It just takes time. Keep pushin, keep fighting.

The best advice I had ever heard is to not make happiness a goal. Happiness is a state of mind. If you make happiness a goal you will spend so much effort looking for it that you will never actually find it.

Best of luck.

I didn't see this in the post, but I can't help but stress the importance of exercise to help fight depression; I think it's better than any drug.

No you are not alone. But that might be part of the problem. Get a dog. I know I know. You don't have the time to care for a dog. But you do. Cause you'll make time. And hire a dog walker. I do. She comes in every day and walks my 95lbs lab/dane mix. Most dog walkers will feed your dog too, if needed.

Coming home to an empty house gets old fast.

A fish might be a practical pet too. A betta fish is a gift I often give to friends who live alone.

They're hearty, easy to take care of and really low maintenance, and live in tiny tanks without any issue that will fit on your desk.

I find getting something done, _anything_, gets me out of a slump the best. Try to make it the most important thing possible, but don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. Forcing yourself to do something will often help your mind work out any ambiguities along the way.

No reason to be depressed, your project looks great. There are people out there with real reasons to be - no family, no loved ones, bad health, no realization. People who have cool projects (should) have a meaningful live.

I don't have much to add to the excellent advice and discussion already given, but this is the first I heard of Upverter, and it looks awesome. Wish I had this when I was studying engineering in college.

I think Upverter might be one of the most important app that exists today.

Try pitching them internationally in schools, colleges, universities... You will gain overwhelming momentum.

Tip #1: Start yoga immediately (hot yoga preferably).

Find a 30 or 40-day challenge, and start going every damn day. Even if it's the only thing you do in the day.

I'd suggest Bikram to kick your ass into forcing you to letting go. The routine + regular space you create for yourself + endorphines and healing it will allow your body do will change your mindset within 1 month's time.

This will create the space for you too, to do all of the little things that you felt like you couldn't get done.

Maybe I should connect with people by bringing other founders to yoga classes. I'd actually love connecting with people that way. I'm living in Kingston (Ontario) right now, though planning to travel the next 3-4 months looking for technical + other people who we have a good rapport with to join me.

Let me know if you're open for a visitor and to be dragged to some yoga. :)

Tip #2: Therapy can help a lot, not medication-based, but talk based. In my opinion medications poison your mind and lessen your overall potential (not forgetting the hit and miss with finding one that 'works' for you, and realizing newer studies show they're not really any better than placebo for most people). And you can reach the same level of flow in life with proper support and doing things every day to take care of yourself.

I've been seeing someone for over a year now, who's an Innerchild/Regression therapist - really just looking at how you react and feel in different situations and helping you release past things that you are suppressing and are holding you in a certain pattern. I'm unimaginably farther ahead in my self-awareness and balance than I was a year ago.

Tip #3: Upverter looks fantastic. I'm jealous at how far along you are with it. I'm at least a year away from reaching the same place you're at with your company, with having a team, and product at the same place (and that's with some luck!).

If you want some unsolicited design tips.. let me know. The tour I think would work better if you just put it all in a scrolly. I think you'd find you'll expose more people to all of the information (continuing to scroll is much easier than having to click around).

Happy to see a fellow Canadian sharing on HN!

I have a few more little design thoughts if you'd interested.

Otherwise, you're on track - just start yoga - and let me know if you want me to visit and drag you the first few times. It's nice to have expectations set by someone who's been doing it 4 1/2+ years, and I also did a 200-hour Hatha yoga teacher training in the summer.. so I'm a little qualified to offer yogic advice. :)

Get laid more often. More often.

What's brilliant about this is it directly, but unmentioned, provides actual social interaction and communication with another person. Even just having a person you regularly get coffee with before work for long enough to have a real conversation would be a great interjection to the daily routine.

Give p90x a try

That pretty much nails it: "You quite simply can't change the world in a couple of years without doing more than most people do in a lifetime."

Don't be depressed boss. Cheer up, and fly out to Himalayas for a small break. You'll get all the peace of mind hereand flip be ready to flip back again with full swing!

so easy said than done, I was once depressed and tears were the order of the day. I kept on convincing myself that i will be better but all was in vain. Everything you try, nothing comes out well, when you try to sleep all you see is the end of the world. Its rely a trying moment But thanks God I feel better now

I totally agree. That this is easier said than done goes without saying it. But trust me, meditation (Yoga) in ambiance of the Himalayas works wonders like a magical potion. Even Steve Jobs turned to the space of this place during his absolute lows.

Think about this, not every depression have medication. Walk into any drugstore with complains about depression. what will they recommend,"sedatives" to enable you to have good sleep. To my concern this is not the solution.

I think a lot of it is a certain sort-of hypnotic quality about certain kinds of work. When you start dreaming in programming languages, or about talking with customers, etc. you are trying to hard, and it's bad.

In this case the best thing to do is to scale back. Start a hobby of something else (it doesn't matter what but it needs to be very different) and assign some time to it every day. Maybe it's gourmet cooking, or woodworking, or growing your own food.

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