NYC Congestion Toll Could Cost Drivers $23 per Trip Starting Next Spring | Hacker News Reader

NYC Congestion Toll Could Cost Drivers $23 per Trip Starting Next Spring

thedrive.com

26 pointsPaulHoule41 comments

Why are they considering exemptions for low income or day visitors? day visitors in particular seems like exactly the kind of people who should pay. If you’re low income perhaps you could consider not driving?

I kind of understand an exemption for taxis especially at 60th street.

Because many Americans simultaneously believe in paying your own way and egalitarianism. Direct cash transfers as an anti-poverty measure are unpopular. In kind transfers and low income discounts appeal to egalitarianism. We Americans also treat driving as a de facto right. Driving is considered something that must be provided and the cost figured out later (a dignity not a price).

I think this “driving is a right” is true of America in general but not as much in NYC

It's not exemptions, it's discounts. And not day visitors, but overnight visitors.

> while discounts for low-income drivers and overnight visitors are also reportedly in the cards.

They are considered because of politics. New Jersey politicians have zero to gain, and their constituents have something to lose. New York may decide to give zero damns and risk litigation (who knows, maybe there's an interstate commerce angle?). Or they might throw them a symbolic bone.

Good correction. I hope we ignore NJ. Maybe we can make an exception for buses or a subsidy for the path train. Driving from NJ is such a mess

Driving from NJ is very easy if you do it after 9 am.

It would be $23 if you have an EZ pass, $34.50 if you don't. When you factor in the cost of the bridge or tunnel toll ($6.55 with an EZ pass or $10.17 without), then commuters are looking at a daily charge of $29.55 or $44.67 (before parking, which is extremely expensive) to drive into Manhattan. Considering how awful the subway and LIRR are already (especially since the botched opening of the new "Grand Central" that resulted in the diversion of numerous trains), this will be an unmitigated disaster. Certainly this will discourage many people from voluntarily visiting Manhattan, but the people who are truly screwed are the people who work there and have no other option (if you have to carry equipment or tools mass transit is not an option).

If you have to carry equipment or tools given the fees you're charging in manhattan this is barely a drop in the bucket.

Sorry to say that's totally false. I worked in the film/video industry for almost two decades. If you are a small operator shooting birthday parties for $250 a pop, you have to bring your light bag, camera and other gear. Similarly, if you make deliveries or pickups from Manhattan, these fees will prove prohibitive and make people seek alternatives. I'm not going to send my film to get developed in Manhattan when it costs an extra $125 a week, on top of the tolls, to send the driver to pick up and drop off the rolls every day. The decrepit and inefficient state of mass transit in New York is vastly understated.

The fact that you're not going to get it developed in Manhattan due to costs is also kind of the point though.

About time!

NYC is easily the city most connected by public transit in the US. Manhattan doubly so. In fact, you can find relatively nice, reasonably discounted hotels in the Hell's Kitchen neighborhood because it is a relative public transit desert: you have to walk a whole 3 avenues to the nearest subway station!

"NYC is easily the city most connected by public transit in the US."

I wonder if there could possibly be reasons why people don't want to ride public transit (subways) in NYC...

They're barely keeping it together, def not on time. They need serious upgrades to deal with ancient infrastructure and capacity.

The times I've taken the subway in NYC...if my biggest complaint was that they were not on time, I would be a happy guy.

I guess for the people who don't live in NYC, an explanation is needed. Subways in NYC are dirty. Like hell. And lots of homeless people ride them. A subway car with one or a few homeless people in is not pleasant to ride in. From the olfactory point of view. And sometimes from the safety point of view too.

But there's some improvement too. About half a decade ago subways stared to consistently stop between stations. You would stay there between stations for multiple minutes. Almost every day. This was discussed here on HN [1]. Well, one way or another, this stopped being a problem.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577171

Oddly, NYC is archipelago city, and the only way from Long Island/Brooklyn/Queens to New Jersey is via Manhattan, hence the congestion. I guess one could take the huge detour via Staten Island, but the Verrazzano already has a big toll.

If only the roads were planned bit better.

Based on the fee being below 60th only, you can easily cross the GWB into Bronx without getting anywhere near the toll.

Are the FDR and west side highway exempt from the toll?

Yes, they're exempt.

Considering that the Cross-Bronx parkway is the road with the worst traffic in the entire country, you can't "easily" cross the GWB (but you can do so after sitting in traffic for several hours). And the privilege of this traffic nightmare is a $17 toll for the GWB ($13.50 if you have EZ Pass).

https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170221/claremont/cross-br...

The billions of dollars it would take to develop such infrastructure would make this congestion charge cheap by comparison.

Even the subways are centered on Manhattan.

And I thought London congestion charge was expensive

It's similar. London's charge is £15 = $19, although only from 7-18h.

This toll is outrageous and disgusting…

I don't understand this mindset. The only way a congestion charge can possibly actually work is if it's high enough to discourage people from making car trips into the city. If it's low enough that people can ignore it, then it's useless for its purpose.

That also means that it entirely favors people with the sort of disposable income that such a charge is meaningless, making it pretty regressive. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I can understand why some people feel that it's unfair.

Could you make road tolls progressive using a lottery instead? You either get access for the time window you bid for or you don't.

Alternatively, you force cars out by doing the 'ol Barcelona superblocks: https://www.google.com/search?q=barcelona+superblocks

You can take transit if you don’t want to pay the toll.

If I go to NYC on my own I take the bus from Ithaca, if I have a party of 3 or more I drive across the GWB and Bronx and stay somewhere near the east side of the Queensbridge because it is cheaper to park, stay in a hotel, etc. The toll is just one more reason to keep doing what I am doing.

People from all social strata live and work in Manhattan. Most people visiting from New Jersey can find parking and take the Path for the same price or less than what parking costs.

Sure, introduce a Pigovian tax then enhance public transit / trains. But what will happen in practice is this money will go into general coffers, be squandered on graft, “consulting,” and intentionally non-viable pet projects, then we all are poorer.

Your certainty around "what will happen in practice" is completely misguided. The program is being run by the MTA and the tolls collected are sequestered for MTA capital projects and will be used solely to invest in public transit. The program you're decrying and the one you claim to support are identical.

> Congestion pricing refers to the use of electronic tolling to charge vehicles for entering certain areas during peak commuting hours, ideally resulting in reduced traffic congestion and increased revenue for transit-oriented projects.

> Revenue generated from the program will be bonded against and placed in a designated MTA “lockbox” to fund capital improvements to the city’s ailing mass transit system.

> The program is expected to generate $1 billion annually, which will be used to secure $15 billion in bonds for repairs and improvements to the public transportation system.

> The electronic tolling system will operate similarly to the cashless tolling system on the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge, where overhead sensors read drivers’ E-ZPass tags and administer the fee directly to their account.

The explicit purpose of the congestion charge is to fund transit. I do share your skepticism as NY/NJ leaders have previously laundered tolls into the general budget making them a de facto tax.

This toll will have 0 impact on congestion and just extract money from folks that are already over taxed. It's a slap in the face to working class NYers.

A 5 cent plastic grocery bag fee significantly changes behavior. People are sensitive to explicit costs.

Evidence from London strongly suggests congestion and traffic will decrease.

The congestion downtown is outrageous. The honking from cars sitting in stopped traffic is noise pollution to a degree most people will never experience. Broome street from 3pm until 7pm is a nightmare. Endless honking and road rage. It’s a detriment to the neighborhood and the traffic cops are constantly getting verbally berated for traffic that is not their fault they’re just trying to keep the cross streets open.

I would love to see this price increased further + actual fines levied for mindless honking in stopped traffic.

As a tourist in NYC a few years ago, the honking was fascinating. Usually, you honk to get someone’s attention. Not in NYC. Thousands of people honking for literally no reason. Why does this affliction affect so many people? I wonder if by honking, people are subconsciously creating an association between honking and moving even though there’s no relationship?

Try China or India where cars come with much longer lasting horns than they do in the U.S. because people honk much more.

I'm gonna call BS on this one.

The crosswalk buttons don't do anything but some people press them.

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