Ask HN: Being managed out because of asking for parental leave | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Being managed out because of asking for parental leave

21 pointsparentheses16 comments

(Letter form feels weirdly appropriate today, so I'm going with it. I'm writing this not only to get advice but to get off my chest that this stressful thing is happening to me.)

Dear HN,

I was elated to find out 2 months ago that we're expecting a baby. Once the non-invasive prenatal (genetic) testing came back indicating no risk of genetic issues, we started to let folks know that we're expecting.

Last week, I told my manager. This week,

- I'm receiving e-mails regarding project status

- I'm receiving Slacks regarding small misses when working with a difficult partner who we're integrating with. When responding to these Slacks, my manager screens them and sometimes chooses not to respond.

- New feedback is being brought to light that was never discussed in the past. While I am not perfect and I'm sure there's always feedback to give me, I feel that the feedback comes from a place of making a case to manage me out rather than support me through parental leave.

I've already seen folks at the company disappear without any notice. There's also a clearly hostile tone coming from leadership (confirmed by many of my peers) which seems to be motivated by encouraging more output from engineers.

While I _can_ find a new job, I'd prefer not to make major changes until after the baby is born. I also feel that building up a positive reputation when you're months away from going on paternity leave is going to be far more difficult than sticking it out here.

Am I looking at this all wrong? What should I do?

(parentheses)

Lets put on a manager hat for a minute (this might not sit well). Your manager could have been coasting along with your performance and not really giving good or any feedback. Then you inform them of upcoming absence which may have triggered a couple paths:

1. Panic that you are going to be out, they start looking at your work output in a haphazard way to figure out how to cover while you’re out. This looks like random slack micro-management and inspecting what you’re doing when they haven’t been.

2. You’re not a top performer, maybe mediocre or bad and the manager has been avoiding delivering the feedback because they are lazy and coasting. I’m not saying you are or aren’t, please don’t take it as an attack. It could even be a perception by mgmt. Maybe this event triggered them to actually look at your output and they realized something doesn’t add up. Maybe clear the air about this to see.

(pretend you’re an asshole VP now who thinks like this:) Are people actually delivering stuff and doing work or is work a side hustle amongst many other things people are doing like while taking yoga, sipping lattes, and staring at their phone. It could be others that have built up a bad perception in upper mgmts eye.

What should you do: do the steps the IANAL commenter said (@relaunched). Send emails for everything to confirm project statuses, timelines, expectations, interactions, etc. This is what they do on their side for a PIP. Do not violate company policy (aka give them an easy fire) with things like sending company data (emails) to yourself if that is against policy. FMLA is legal protection around taking leave for having kids and other things, look into that. Open up a convo with HR about FMLA (email papertrail) even if you don’t think you’ll do it.

It sucks you have crappy management. Also congrats!

Thanks! Helpful advice :)

I'm not entirely sure. The narrative above my level is very tightly controlled and the company lacks openness I've seen in the past.

I am not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

This isn't gonna end well, in the short-term. However, you can prepare yourself for the longer term. Many companies, especially startups, just don't care.

Document, or send a recap email, acknowledging that you talked with your boss about the parental leave. Anything not in writing, didn't really happen - an email that they don't respond to or agree with is still good. Point out your concerns, based on this performance feedback and state that you believe it's related to bringing up parental leave - "I believe I am being retaliated against for expressing my intent to go on paterbity leave". Then, loop in HR. Then, continue to raise the concerns as they arise. The more appropriate people that get these emails, the less likely the company can claim ignorance. A pattern of behavior and negligent / discriminatory practices is what you are trying to establish. If one manager is bad that's unfortunate, if all of HR / legal / founders / CEO all know this is going on and do nothing or are complicit, that's way worse.

All the while, consult a plaintiff side employment attorney and start looking for another job. Now that I think about it, you might want to talk to an attorney first - there could be FMLA issues or CRA issues in play.

Best case, everything is documented (keep copies of your emails / slack / etc, for your records) and the company changes their ways. Worst case, you get fired and your attorney takes it from there.

Good luck and I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Thanks for the advice and good energy.

They are looking at downsizing or trying to get more out of each developer. Kids mean less focus so they might be trying to phase you out.

Not a place you want to stick around because if you got sick, needed timeoff or got old you would be in the same position.

Having said that you can follow a few strategies.

- You have the work as hard as possible, burn yourself out and get fired and do poorly on interviews because you are stuck on your old position

- You can try to embed yourself in a critical role but you probably needed to be already in such a role

- You can try to make yourself less visible and avoid thd boss hoping time heals all

- You can start preparing for the interview circuit and get a headstart when the ball drops

I would advise not involving hr unless you want to sue and start your job search immediately. I would do my best to address issues raised but not go overboard where it affects your homelife/health. The most important thing is staying mentally positive and giving an honest effort goes a longway when you are creating your story for the interview circuit.

When you least expect it they will keep you around when you think you have a job for life someone buys the company and lets you go. You never know what may happen, money struggles might push your boss out and create new opportunities. Keep grinding it out.

Thanks! Helpful advice :)

My advice, you have three options:

1) Go above your manager's head and force a resolution. This is risky even in the best situation (let's say you have a relationship with the owner of the company, even then it is risky - they have to support your manager, in many cases, because they rely on them).

2) Just chill, try to do your best, and if your manager is doing something that is obviously making your life hard (like ignoring inquiries - I've been there, it sucks) confront them about it. Say "Hey, recently I've been asking some questions and haven't been getting answers. ..." formulate some non-aggressive, non-confrontational response. Warning: even your best response non-aggressive response will probably be seen as aggressive, because certainly your manager is either stressed out, or applying some biases to this situation.

3) Just ignore it, and continue on, and try to relax and not stress about a job that is probably a shit job. This is the hardest action, but it is the only option where the outcome is completely in your control.

Thanks!

#3 sounds nice :)

Sometimes your gut feelings are right. Be on the lookout for more red flags, they're sure to pop up. The thing is, unless you are indispensable to the company, they're possibly gonna axe you without a second thought. Your gut feeling is telling you there's a good chance of that. They company isn't going to care about your baby, it cares only about money. Even on the more personal level, your direct boss doesn't give a damn about you it seems, so don't count on human empathy to give you any leeway here.

The reality is you can't do much. It's not up to you whether you can save your position, if the company is planning to axe you then it's gonna do it without any regard to what you think is fair. So just keep that in mind, and plan your current situation to your advantage:

First I would check to see if they pay out PTO. Some PTO like floating holidays or personal days may not get paid out (read your contract). Optimize on taking that PTO first, immediately. Since you have a baby, take your parental leave soon. Even if they lay you off, you can get severance and also be able to apply for unemployment benefits to cover some costs of your newborn and support your family while you're not working. Do not just quit yourself, because then the company wins: they get to skip out on severance, and you can't apply for unemployment.

Then after your parental leave is over, see if there's sick days you can use. Sometimes it's use-it-or-lose it, so you can use that time to find a new job if you don't like your current one. You don't have to take this all at once, just disperse it here and there to lighten your workload so you can have time to practice those leetcodes and whatever for your interviews.

Whatever you do, just remember you have to look out for yourself and your family first, and congrats on the baby!

Nice. I didn't realize that some companies don't pay out PTO.

Laws on whether and what PTO needs to be paid out vary a lot by jurisdiction (including, in the US, different states), and in some cases are contingent on mutual agreement with a default setting in the event that there is no explicit agreement to the contrary. So, you need to check not only your contract, but also the governing law (both as to what the default is, and as to whether the contract even has the power to override it.)

Ack. Luckily the policy is to pay out PTO.

I would suggest sticking it out. These things are normal. Don’t let your output fall or let your boss out-manoeuvre you out of a job. I have survived a similar situation, although not exactly like yours.

Bosses are clever sometimes. Don’t let them run you over by their tactics.

Thanks!

American employer and American work location - correct?

Indeed. Based out of Palo Alto.

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