Oregon finally legalizes pumping your own gas | Hacker News Reader

Oregon finally legalizes pumping your own gas

thedrive.com

426 pointsPaulHoule462 comments

"Full service" used to mean checking oil and air and other driving essentials during stops. Oregon passed legislation intending to stop the death of "full service" stations but failed to meaningfully define The level of service.

The only excuse for the law being around so long was that it created jobs. Which was lame reasoning. They intentionally kept the gas tax lower in the state so consumers didn't notice the price difference. So effectively these were government subsidized jobs.

Good riddance. Forcing someone to stand in gas fumes all day was clearly not good for their health. And I always avoided filling up in Oregon because waiting for the "service" could sometimes be longer than the fill-up itself.

My first job was pumping gas at a full service station in Ohio in the late ‘90s, where full service stations were rare. We had two islands, with two pumps each. When out-of-towners would pull up and see us approach, they’d often drive to the other island. We’d get a big grin and walk over to them again. We’d get the best tips from them, because they didn’t know what to do.

I’d probably check someone’s oil about once an hour, but we washed windshields by default. It was before “pay at the pump”, so I spent a lot of my time walking credit cards in and out of the store to run them. It was actually a fun summer job for a high school kid.

A few summers later, I got a software internship at that oil company’s headquarters, working on a Visual Basic app for the pricing department to set prices at all of their stations. I’d often complete my week’s work by Monday afternoon and spend the rest of the week in their library, learning about all sorts of new technology. They treated me well and I was fortunate they didn’t offer me a full-time job at the end of my internship, because I likely would’ve taken it.

When I’ve filled up in Oregon, I’ve not seen them do anything but pump gas. During the pandemic, I drove through Oregon many times and learned to get gas before entering the state.

Yeah I don't see this mentioned nearly often enough in this discussion: gasoline fumes are very toxic and carcinogenic, mainly because of the benzene, which is just terrible for you. It's not a huge deal if you pump your own gas, because it's just a couple minutes of exposure at most a few times a week, but when it's your job and so you're getting hours of exposure many times a week, that's a whole different ballgame. We were forcing people into this actually-very-dangerous but nonetheless minimum wage job for literally no benefit. It was fucked up.

Honestly, that excuse is why there was the compromise provision in this bill that mandates half of the pumps must remain full service.

The only reason this passed at all is because of COVID. Gas stations are complaining pretty uniformly and quite loudly that they can't get their labor levels back to pre-COVID levels

Gas stations can get their labor levels back. Make the gas $20 per gallon and pay an attendant $100 per hour.

But that would not be popular, and so the current staffing levels are also not popular, so there is finally sufficient political pressure to somewhat drop the gas station attendant requirement.

Let labor prices keep going up, and soon no gas station attendants will be required because voters will want cheaper gas prices more than they want someone to fill their gas.

This seems like a really easy thing to study and get reliable results. And assuming it is true, I'd expect some kind of class-action suit like we saw for mesothelioma.

You mean like the one where a bunch of stewardesses got cancer from exactly this (due to planes sucking fumes into the HVAC system at the gate), then won a huge class action lawsuit?

The airlines stopped pumping exhaust into passenger compartments for a few years, but then everyone forgot about the whole thing. Now you get that good-old-fashioned jet-fuel eye sting again until you wash your face after the end of the flight.

On the bright side, I don't think there's been many studies showing the old results on studies of stewardesses transfer to today's flight attendants.

The fumes actually make me nauseous basically instantly. My understanding is that modern vehicles can't vent the tank, so when you pump gas in vapor must exit via the same hole that the liquid is going in. So a fillup discharges ~20 gallons of fumes or something.

There is basically always wind where I live. The pumps shut off automatically. So I just turn the pump on and walk over to the curb, upwind from the fumes.

There could have been regulations requiring workers to wear respirators.

If these fumes really are so dangerous then I'm surprised there hasn't been some kind of class action lawsuit filed for workplace health and safety violations.

I don't think it's quite so bad compared to many other things, and the amount of benzene and other aromatics in gasoline is deliberately regulated to a low level due to its toxicity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Component_of_gasoline

There have been many automotive enthusiasts who lived past median life expectancy and died of something other than cancer, and those are people who have likely been exposed to far more other solvents than the rest of the population.

I don't hover around the gas while it's filling. I get back in my car or step up front (depending on how hot/cold it is)

> The only excuse for the law being around so long was that it created jobs.

That may have been one excuse, but as a long time Oregonian my recollection is that the real reason is voters have rejected it when it did come up for a vote. People liked the idea of citing in their car and letting someone else do the work.

> They intentionally kept the gas tax lower in the state so consumers didn't notice the price difference

I recall once reading that the cost of insurance on a self-service station isn't far off the cost of staff, and it's mostly a wash overall.

> waiting for the "service" could sometimes be longer than the fill-up itself.

These days, Costco runs a massively efficient assembly line fill-up procedure, and self-service might well be slower. At quieter stations that may not be true. Even then, it depends on if you can navigate around the cars that are just parked in front of a pump while they are shopping inside the convenience store.

> I recall once reading that the cost of insurance on a self-service station isn't far off the cost of staff, and it's mostly a wash overall.

If this were true, then there would be gas stations with attendants in the other 48 states.

Maybe if they hire them at minimum wage it’s a wash? But the problem now is very few people are willing to work for minimum wage, so they are closing down pumps because they can’t staff them.

> That may have been one excuse, but as a long time Oregonian my recollection is that the real reason is voters have rejected it when it did come up for a vote. People liked the idea of citing in their car and letting someone else do the work.

About once a year or so, I get a person at the pump behind me that is FURIOUS that I am pumping my own fuel, and start yelling at me. They ignore what I say, until the station employees confirm with them that yes, it is legal to pump your own Diesel in Oregon, just not gasoline, since gasoline is flambile. (the existing law is governed by the state fire marshall). They are usually grateful, since they are always down at least one attendent, and busy as heck.

> People liked the idea of citing in their car and letting someone else do the work.

I like that idea too. But I don't like the idea of forcing a human to do the work. I like the idea of legislating for standardized interfaces between gas pumps and gas doors on cars, such that it becomes possible to build "full service" robot gas stations.

I think the only reason this hasn't been pushed for, is that the automotive-sector companies with the robotics expertise are all electric-car companies. (Or hydrogen-fuel-cell car companies — lotta robotics people in that space.)

Pumping gas is already 95% automated. A human is only in the loop to make the connection between the pump and the vehicle. It's not that much more work for a person driving in to a station to also connect the pump to the car.

I wonder how much any of those "driving essentials" could matter at this point. Tire pressure sensors are mandatory. Oil pressure sensors won't tell you until it's too late, but cars are now built better and are no longer assume to leak oil after a few tens of thousands of miles.

It might be nice to have somebody wash the windows and check the washer fluid level, but it's hardly essential.

We don't even need them to run the credit cards any more. It's so weird going to a station in New Jersey, handing the attendant your card, and having them slide it right on the pump, just as you would. (And yeah, I've avoided filling up in New Jersey for the same reason: it takes longer.)

Maybe this served a goal at some point, but technology seems to have vaporized whatever it could have ever served.

They don't wash the windshields or check the washer fluid in any part of Oregon I've been at so far. Granted I'm a recent move in, but this never happens, at least not at the Fred Meyer or Costco gas stations I go to.

More often than not, its just a bunch of people standing around using their phones as they wait for fill ups to end and they meander between the cars. Its really poor service, honestly.

I don't even have a dipstick in my car at this point - the computer will warn you when the oil level is low, otherwise you're to assume it's fine. It also warns me when the windshield wiper fluid reservoir is low so that I can fill it before running out.

Not that gas stations in Oregon were doing any of this anyway, they were pumping gas and nothing else.

My car has both the in-cab oil indicator, and the dipstick. The indicator comes on late, like, it is bone dry and well below the L mark on the dipstick.

But, I mean, every model is different.

(I know this because this is how we started to learn we were losing oil, somewhere. … and unlike the parent poster's suggestion that old cars did this after 10k miles … this was around 130k miles. This is but one car, though, I suppose.)

Oh, man. I've never even looked for the dipstick on my (25,000 mile old) car.

I used to change the oil on my cars myself. I've never even tried on my newest car.

“Creating jobs” only makes sense if funding those jobs provide actual value that wouldn’t exist otherwise. You can “create jobs” by making people dig holes and fill them up, but you’re just wasting your population’s productive time - you would be better off by just giving those people money for nothing, some of them might just do something useful in the newly created free time.

I’d argue that pumping gas overall provides very low value.

One good thing about declining birth rates is that you can't waste people on bullshit jobs.

Fully automated gas stations has been a thing in my country for thirty years. And they can be up to 20 cents cheaper so it was adopted by consumers very quickly.

> So effectively these were government subsidized jobs.

Hey now, without government-subsidized jobs we'd have millions out of work if you take into account not only government agencies but also the US military.

While I think this specific version of government-subsidized jobs (pumping gas) feels forced, I think the government creating jobs is a great thing on the whole. The New Deal was a great example of this, created 20-something million new jobs for a decade or so and pulled us out of the great depression.

Now if we want to talk about truly bad government-subsidized labor it revolves around private companies abusing our welfare systems by paying their workers starvation wages cough Wal-mart cough.

> The only excuse for the law being around so long was that it created jobs. Which was lame reasoning.

This was my understanding and I agree it is bad reasoning. It might have created jobs, but certainly not good ones.

“While traveling by car during one of his many overseas travels, Professor Milton Friedman spotted scores of road builders moving earth with shovels instead of modern machinery. When he asked why powerful equipment wasn’t used instead of so many laborers, his host told him it was to keep employment high in the construction industry. If they used tractors or modern road building equipment, fewer people would have jobs was his host’s logic.”

“Then instead of shovels, why don’t you give them spoons and create even more jobs?” Friedman inquired.

Usually these kinds of regulations are about keeping existing jobs rather than creating new jobs. I certainly understand the impulse, even when misguided, to slow down the rate of “progress”. There are always winners and losers, even if society as a whole would be better off in the long run.

There is a pretty good chance this quote is inappropriately attributed to Milton Friedman though if he did say anything like this, it was likely about a Canal rather than building roads[0]

Feels like something he would say though, that's for sure. The ethos is right.

[0]: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/10/spoons-shovels/

This feels like a constant whenever "job creation" is talked about.

Sure there's plenty of uber eats driving jobs but this isn't exactly something you can raise a family with.

> Oregon passed legislation intending to stop the death of "full service" stations

This is 110% conjecture on my part, but I always wondered if this law wasn’t originally a covert way to impede travel for certain groups of people by empowering service stations with final say on who was allowed to buy gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Oregon

Oregon has a runaway train of taxation, especially in dense counties. Interestingly, if you ask residents they think our government is poor: https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiative...

For all the tax dollars the state collects, there's not much to show for it, generally speaking. Seems like it all goes to PERS obligations and administration, rather than improving communities.

Not to mention, they have the auto refund of the surplus, which is kinda silly, because what you'd want the state to do is setup a rainy day fund that can be safely invested for future endeavors, but no, the legislative body of 1979 made it so that if the state runs a surplus they allow everyone to get a tax "kicker"[0] instead, which is pretty short sighted IMO. Not to mention, the amount after being spread out across all of Oregons tax paying base, is really small and makes hardly a difference for the average person.

[0]: https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/oregon-kick...

> Good riddance.

These are the small things that make life better! Wonderful news!

Living in California and driving semi-regularly to Washington I've always had to deal with the Oregon problem of gas stations. I always carry a couple of fuel jugs to fill up so I can avoid Oregon gas stations with their insane service rules. I'm glad that's over, finally.

>So effectively these were government subsidized jobs.

Is that so bad? Plenty of other countries use tax dollars to pay the poor to do busywork. And Oregon is an extremely rural state outside the Portland metro, with very little agriculture or industry other than logging and fishing, so gas stations are most likely one of the few decent options available.

Yes. There is plenty of more worthwhile work Oregon taxpayers could be paying for, like picking up the trash everywhere.

> And I always avoided filling up in Oregon because waiting for the "service" could sometimes be longer than the fill-up itself.

Also because they would look at you with sheepy eyes expecting tips. I avoid valet parking for the same reason. I can fill up my own gas and park my own car, I don't need the service in the first place.

As an Oregonian, I wish they'd tax me the same (or more, arguably gas shouldn't be this cheap), skip the pointless attendant jobs, and just give those displaced workers a UBI so they can pursue more useful jobs or educations can instead.

It's fine with me to use my tax dollars to subsidize someone else's income when they have no better alternative. I just wish it wouldn't waste everyone's time while doing so. If you're gonna redistribute wealth at least do it efficiently, lol.

I always felt the same about toll booth collectors. Sitting in exhaust fumes for 8 hours must have been terrible.

We need better regulation on electronic indicators, though. Governments happily use them to track vehicle movements unbeknownst to most motorist. (And not at toll booths.) License plate readers (which are also used in some toll systems) share the same abuses.

(That, and some regulation around rental car companies charging a 2500% "convenience" junk fee for handling tolls.)

Only applied to gas. You could always pump your own diesel.

Also motorcycles and boats as well Can pump their own fuel? It’s funny to make small talk with the attendants while pumping diesel, they really want to do something like clean a windshield in my experience

I bike toured with a liquid fuel camping stove some years back. Few things will confuse a gas station attendant quite like sliding a quarter across the counter and telling them "pump #3, please". And then they look out there and see a loaded touring bike.

In Oregon, though, not only were they not confused, the attendants managed to fill the fuel bottle without making a mess. That's a trick I still haven't quite mastered. Going reeeeeaaaalllly slowly seems to be part of it, but I still spill about half the time.

The gas seems to come out aerated, and foams over before settling down. It's a bit like pouring a carbonated beverage, but you can't see how full the glass is.

I thought those used butane or propane. I've never heard of one that uses gasoline.

The most common camp stoves do use pressurized gases like you're mentioning. However, this is a relatively modern invention -- historically (pre-1980?) most camp stoves operated on liquid fuels ... in the 1950's to 1970's this was "white gas" due to being particularly clean burning. Before that, kerosene was popular.

MSR is a top-tier camping gear manufacturer and they specialize in making stoves which can be fueled using damn near any fuel[0] (gas AND liquid!).

These can burn:

- The pressurized canister gas you're talking about (any proportion blends of propane, isobutane, n-butane)

- White gas ("Naphtha", "Coleman liquid camping fuel", C5 to C12)

- Kerosene ("Paraffin oil", "Lamp Oil", C10 to C16)

- Unleaded gasoline (C7 to C12, nominally)

- Diesel (C12 to C16, nominally)

- Aviation gasoline ("Avgas" or 100LL)

- Jet Fuel (JP-A, JP-4, JP-8)

- Mineral spirits (C9 to C12)

- Alcohols (Typically ethanol but in a pinch isopropyl or methanol would probably "work" as well but should be considered to bring safety issues)

And they might, sometimes, also work with biodiesels and plant oils (e.g. vegetable oil, olive oil), though they are not rated for this.

Serious adventurers across the undeveloped world rely on these types of stoves because you can never be sure what kind of fuel you'll be able to get.

0: https://www.msrgear.com/blog/liquid-fuel-stoves-101-choosing...

is it.. safe to burn leaded fuel on your camping stove?

I run kerosene in mine. I know people who use gasoline as well.

There are both, and they have their trade offs. Canister stoves use propane or a propane-butane mix. The stoves tend to be less expensive, and the fuel more expensive. Canister stoves also range in weight from very little to nearly nothing. You'll also find integrated cooking systems with a pot that matches a stove. Those claim higher efficiency at the expense of increased weight.

(Edited to add) Liquid fuel stoves have better cold weather performance, and are popular in mountaineering for that reason. I am not a mountaineer and rarely camp cold enough that I need the cold weather performance. Canisters will do down to 20F/-6C with even minimal care.

Liquid fuel stoves burn a variety of fuels, but white gas is a common one. Pump gas burns a little dirtier than white gas, but the upside of a stove that'll safely burn pump gas is that the fuel is available everywhere. Canisters and white gas often require a camping store, or at least a well-stocked Walmart.

If you're outside of areas with a lot of demand for canister fuel, a stove that burns pump gas is a godsend.

The canister situation has gotten enormously easier with the near-universal adoption of EN 417[1] canisters by manufacturers. Prior to that, there were a lot of incompatible standards.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_417

> Pump gas burns a little dirtier than white gas, but the upside of a stove that'll safely burn pump gas is that the fuel is available everywhere.

How does exposure of food to benzene vapours from gasoline factor into safety?

I feel like using gasoline for cooking food would be a fuel of last-resort.

does it smell at all like gasoline as it burns? I really hate that smell, otherwise they sound quite convenient for ease of obtaining fuel

Butane and propane are not liquid fuels at standard temperature/pressure; they're pressurized gases. You would not be able to fill them at a gas station pump. GP is talking about an old "white gas" stove (white gas is just gasoline without additives) which were popular before propane stoves dominated over the last 20 years.

I’ll add that, my guess, the reason people don’t use white gas as much is because the stoves are more difficult to use. You have to pump them, go through a warmup stage, and keep them level. I don’t know the exact terminology for the parts, I just know the process, since I always used a white gas stove.

I used this gasoline stove when I drove Alaska-Argentina, around Africa and around Australia [1] - Gasoline is everywhere, other sources are not.

Plenty of countries also has their own propane bottle fittings, so getting a bottle filled from what ever country you bought it in while touring can be a nightmare. I've met people who carry a bag with 15 adapters, and I still watched propane flow out onto the ground in Argentina after visiting 6 stations with them.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi4opxsQmn0

Sometimes motorcycle campers still use them so they can combine their cooking fuel supply and emergency fuel supply

I have a Coleman duel fuel camping stove. It can run on gasoline. It has a small reservoir. The screw on cap doubles as a hand pump to pressurize it. Fairly common style for backpacking where size and weight are critical and you don’t want to carry a separate gas cylinder (as a personal preference).

There are liquid fuel camp stoves. White gas is the usual but there are models that will burn pretty much anything. Propane/butane also don't work very well in cold weather although some fuel mixes are better.

There's plenty of liquid fuel stoves around, although butane/propane is probably more common. I like them because the fuel is cheaper and more available, and you can reuse the containers. The downside is they must be "primed" by preheating the with a bit of liquid fuel, so that the fuel comes out vaporized. I prefer kerosene/diesel over white gas/gasoline because it runs a bit hotter and is safer (at the cost of more difficult priming).

Liquid fuel stoves can also be run in very cold temperatures, where butane mixtures or propane stop working.

When I was in Boy Scouts the stoves were all white gas, similar to gasoline from the gas station but burns a bit cleaner because it's more refined and without any additives. Less generically also called "Coleman fuel." But the stoves will happily burn regular gasoline if you have to.

Into the rabbit hole ye shall go.

https://youtu.be/D_qFWoa_HR4?t=601

I remember a jay leno episode where he talked about old VW beetles that had gasoline heaters to warm the occupants quickly.

It was not about warming quickly, it was because Beetles have an air cooled engine. The engine's waste heat is thus difficultly recyclable compared to a liquid cooled engine which allows circulating the coolant through a heat exchanger to heat up the cabin's air. Also the Beetle's engine is rear-mounted so even if you could heat up the air with fins on the engine block, bringing heat to the front of the cabin would require much piping making it impractical and ineffective. Hence the gasoline heater.

Similarly, electric cars don't produce waste heat and so the heater also gets its power from the same power source as the engine, the battery.

Diesel heaters are common in van conversions now, not nearly as dangerous as gasoline I guess.

Whisperlite international does

My family drove to Crater Lake in Oregon last summer. We stopped for gas in a tiny one road town near the park. Due to it being tourist season, we needed to wait around 20 minutes to get ‘service’ at the gas pump. The station only had one person pumping gas. This person was completely overwhelmed. I gave her my credit card and she started to fill up our tank. 5 minutes after driving away from the station I realized the fuel gauge was still indicating close to empty. I turned around and waited another 15 minutes just to tell her she had apparently forgotten to fill my tank. She was incredibly embarrassed (rightly so!). She then told me to LEAVE MY CAR RUNNING while she pumped gas so I could watch the gauge move “just to make sure it was working”. LOL! I still smdh thinking about this experience.

> LEAVE MY CAR RUNNING

AFAIR it was a problem almost a century ago, not now. It's still a thing I can't get comfortable with, but there is no chance of going wrong of a car just running while it's being fueled up.

Some fuel systems are pressurized these days, running cars with such a system opened up to the air will cause warnings to be displayed on the dash. Probably fine but may cause confusion/unneeded mechanic visits.

I personally will continue to religiously minimize spark and heat sources while fueling. I've seen damaged spark plugs complete their circuit by sparking through the air (and apparently keep running the engine just fine). Best to eliminate a class of problems entirely.

It's an engine and the brakes are friction. Parts of it get very hot. The whole thing is a huge heat source. Cars get hot enough to light dried grass on fire. The risk is inherent in the platform.

Outside of not fueling near an open flame, the more moderate strategy is to always plan your exits and know where that fire suppression button is relative to where you are.

My mother-in-law once attempted to turn on the ignition while my father-in-law was pumping gas. She was hot and wanted the A/C back on.

My wife and I were in the back seat and not pleased by that action. I would think a modern car can handle that without exploding but why risk it? Just deal with the heat for, oh, another 30 seconds. We were filling up a Honda Accord, not some camper van with a giant tank.

>My family drove to Crater Lake in Oregon last summer. We stopped for gas in a tiny one road town near the park.

Shady Cove? Chevron next to a fire station? If so, I stop by there whenever I go out that way. Really conveniently sited, honestly.

It was already conditionally legal in rural parts of the state since 2017.

> Oregon drivers that would prefer to save time by simply pulling up to an empty pump rather than waiting in line for a forced full-service pump.

Anecdata n=1, but this hasn't been the problem, at least in east Portland. The article describes stations where "half the pumps" are closed because they can't staff, but as a daily driver for 10 years and especially since 2021 I haven't seen a pump closed due to staffing — the one or two attendants for the pumps just take longer to get to everyone. Go to smaller stations with 4-8 pumps and it usually moves faster.

The more pertinent shift I've seen is shorter operating hours, which is the biggest benefit of allowing self-service. Having self-service pumps means stations can more feasibly open earlier and stay open later, especially those already attached to convenience stores that are already staffed.

Also this is going to be great for out-of-staters already familiar with pumping gas, but based on road-trip experience there are some native/lifelong urban Oregonians who have no fucking idea what do at or with a gas pump.

> Having self-service pumps means stations can more feasibly open earlier and stay open later,

This was a common problem before the rules on rural stations loosened up. Driving through Oregon during the night could be pretty risky - there were very few 24/7 stations.

Back in the day membership to a card-lock station chain (Pacific Pride, CFN) was the best option, it was an end-run around the law since membership supposedly ensured you were 'competent' to safely pump your own gas, and the stations were 24/7 since they were unstaffed. No attendants to wait on, no lines, no stressing about having to park up next to a gas station and wait for it to open in the morning.

I think this is less common in Portland because of those smaller stations with the pumps closer in proximity to each other. Out in Beaverton you'll notice the larger stations tend to block off half the pumps and the pumps have huge spaces between them. The Chevron Extra Mile station off Scholls Ferry for example had half the station coned off two weekends ago. The Walker Rd stations tend to do this regularly as well.

The Fred Meyer off Walker Rd nearest the Nike campus is the worst offender of this. Always terribly understaffed in my experience, and even when you can get in at a decent hour when it appears not to be too busy the attendants are very slow to move through things. Its not great service.

Honestly I know this is about gas stations, but service jobs in general in the PNW I've noticed have very very poor service, very kurt employees up here, seems very common. I moved in from California, and one thing I'll say is having lived in California for 13 years (around Sacramento, though went to the Bay Area plenty of times) they at least acknowledge your presence and just seem friendlier.

I want better working conditions for everyone in these jobs, thats for sure, but this seems to be a cultural thing in the Pacific Northwest. My casual interactions around here just seem to leave alot to be desired. I'm not huge on small talk, but there's just little cues and things people do that make things more welcoming that people just don't do here.

I was born and raised just north of Seattle and, while I know you're in the Portland metro area (as am I now, near that Fred's), I'd recommend looking up something called the "Seattle freeze", which sounds like what you're referring to.

I had a very interesting experience in 2010, when I moved to Atlanta for a few years, kind of the opposite of what you're experiencing. Being from the PNW, the sort of attitude you described was ingrained in me, and I hated the forced outward politeness of "Southern hospitality". It was such a shock; I could never get used to it and quickly realized that it was a bullshit veneer that people put on in spite of whatever mood they might be feeling. That's not to say that, perhaps to your point, there's not a happy medium to be found, but I digress.

I bring that up because in the first apartment complex I moved to in Atlanta, there was an older gentleman a few units down who had an Oregon license plate and looked stereotypically Oregonian. The highlight of my days would be my interactions with him as we passed by in the common area - they literally were only ever a quick head nod to one another with nary a word said between us. Never knew his name, never held a conversation, maybe only uttered the word, "Hi," once, but for someone who preferred those kinds of interactions and couldn't get used to that aspect of Southern culture I really, really cherished those moments.

But that's just me. :)

I pulled into the 76 on Walker Road & 185th a few weeks back at around 7PM on a weeknight. Every single pump was locked up, and as I looked around, a kid hollered from right next to the car wash, "Sorry, we're closed! Not enough staff!".

First and only time I've encountered a full station closed, but it blew my mind, having grown up in Washington and never having an issue pumping gas because an attendant wasn't there. Really happy it looks like I'll be able to start pumping my own again.

I drive an electric car, but my wife has had a difficult time getting gas sometimes in Portland due to the operating hours, like you said. There have been days where she couldn’t fill up because there was no one at the pump. She’s excited for the change.

Yet.. there aren't any states without the law that have people doing this job.

One thing I don't look forward to about this is that (I assume) this will inevitably result in our pumps having those awful video ads that I see all over the place in other states. Gas stations won't be held back from playing those, now that their attendants aren't around.

For those who might not know, one of the (unlabeled) buttons next to the screen will mute the audio at least. Just push them one by one until it mutes.

Ripping the thing off the pump (with a crowbar if needed) and chucking it int he trash can also works.

Just saying.

Usually second from the bottom on the right :)

Sometimes, not always.

Is this feature present only in th US, or are there any other countries that play ads on the pumps?

trust me, you'll tune them out after a couple of visits. The human psyche is amazing and a wonderful mystery.

Been to quite a few gas stations in eastern Oregon that have these advertisement screens. I reckon it’s only a matter of time.

And political stickers being put onto the pumps.

A little while back I came across one of those Biden "I did that" gas stickers on an Electric charging station. It was amusing to see a sticker that was intended to be a dig on a politician to be repurposed into praise.

Lawmakers should spend as much time getting rid of laws as they do creating them.

Better yet, every law should have an expiration date that must be explicitly renewed.

I wouldn't trust politicians at all with this. They purposefully stalemate laws that are needed to use a bargaining chips or attach irrelevant but self-serving amendments. The midnight vote to keep murder a crime will also fund a nuclear waste plant in Ohio and a pig jacuzzi in Kentucky!

It would be better to vote for better politicians who work together to enact sensible, reasonable and evidence based policies but that'll never happen, because humans.

I've heard of something called sunset clause which can be included in laws that make them expire if some condition is (not) met.

For example, if the goal of the law is to lower incidence of crime X and if crime X has not decreased by 10% by Jan 1st, 2026 the law automatically is voided.

Think that through for a second.

The Oregon legislature only meets for 6 months in odd numbered years and a month and a half in even years.

In that time they barely have time to address pressing issues of the day, do we really need them to be rubber stamping a bunch of laws for weeks every time?

It’s a terrible idea.

I like the spirit of this idea – to remove outdated and unenforceable laws from the books – but I think this is unpractical at most levels of government. I also think legislative bodies would adopt work arounds that would nullify the desired effect.

I’ve thought there should be a period of time - maybe 30 years or so, where every law needs to be renewed or thrown out. I’d assume a committee would take years to do this.

I’m sure most would just be put right back through, but politicians would probably be wary of effectively signing on to the worst stuff again.

https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_811.315

ORS 811.315 Failure of slow driver to drive on right

A person commits the offense of failure of a slow driver to drive on the right if the person is operating a vehicle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing and the person fails to drive:

---

So, when does this law expire and need to be renewed? If it was to expire and needed to be renewed, would it get a meaningful review as part of the renewal process?

How long would it take to go through https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_chapter_811 to renew each one? ... and then going up one level https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_title_59

If some individuals were protesting big government and refused to show up to establish quorum in a timely manner, would that result in there being no laws for the road? ... and would that be seen as a good thing?

They'l just set the expiration date for the year 3000.

We're never going to get universal healthcare with such a law. I'd wager that almost all welfare is as good as dead in fact.

Honestly I love not having to get out in the rain to pump my gas.

I don't think I've seen a car wash thay didn't have a roof over the pumps.

Lawmakers should spend much more time getting rid of laws than creating them.

I'm wondering about how this line works out: "Oregon’s bill crucially prevents stations from charging more for a full-service pump than a self-service, which will effectively eliminate full-service pumps."

I'm not sure the effect of this is so obvious. Clearly full-serve will have higher costs and lower margins - but then again, since it's all the same price customers might prefer full-serve and go to those stations that offer it. Will full-service have lower margins but make it up in volume? Or be some kind of loss-leader for selling snacks at the store?

I don't know - it just seems really strange? Like why not just allow them to charge more for full-service? What's the downside to the public of allowing this to just be another option?

We have both options in CA, and while full-service is somewhat rare, in most areas you can find it if you want it and are willing to pay more for it.

The article says the law mandates each station must still staff half its pumps.

So obviously this means full service isn’t going away (it’s still legally required), but if it’s very popular, there might be a line for the full service pumps. Personally, I doubt it.

Not sure how the writer drew such a clearly wrong conclusion.

Edit: text from the bill

> SECTION 2. (1) A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2023R1/Downloads/Meas...

> A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail

So many words to say "gas stations".

> may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

So many words to say "may not have more self-service pumps than full-service pumps".

Dammit, I hate legalese. Unfortunately, it's a requirement because some lawyer would nitpick what a "gas station" is, or what defines a "full-service" pump.

Even the term "fuel dispensing device" is ridiculous, but I know if the law said "pump", then a lawyer would argue that "pump" could refer to the actual device that pumps the fuel from the underground tank, and that one pump could go to multiple dispensers, so a g̶a̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail could have two pumps, but one goes to 8 full-service dispensers, and the other goes to only 4 self-service dispensers, and not be in violation of the law because they have an equal number of pumps.

If they said "pump", you know the gas stations would immediately find a way to put tanks above the level of the cars so that they could operate on gravity instead.

> why not just allow them to charge more for full-service

Because they would, and this is the main reason voters have rejected self-service in the past in Oregon. It's not like they would lower the price for self-service, they'd just raise it for full service. So of course people tend to vote to keep full service prices the same.

This chain of reasoning is crazy. If gas stations had that much pricing power, why would they not charge $20 per gallon?

Believe it or not, gas stations do compete on price. Exceptionally located gas stations might have some ability to set their own price, but otherwise, if you have two gas stations next to each other, and one priced gas lower than the other, then the other will have to match it.

Which means either the gas price will go down by the cost of the labor for gas stations that are no longer needed, or every gas station owner is in collusion to maintain the same price (obviously false).

Maybe. I think the big problem is that people don’t want to tip the gas pumper guy, who usually only accepts cash. Or interact with them really. It’s very dumb and uncomfortable for a lot of people to engage in this kind of social ritual if they’re used to pumping their own gas.

Tipping a gas attendant is definitely not an expectation in Oregon, but people driving through from out-of-state sometimes seem to think so.

Interesting.

I’m curious if anyone from Jersey can weigh in on norms for their area?

> We have both options in CA, and while full-service is somewhat rare, in most areas you can find it if you want it and are willing to pay more for it.

I haven't seen a full service lane at a gas station in years.

> Like why not just allow them to charge more for full-service? What's the downside to the public of allowing this to just be another option?

If gas stations charged more for full service, that would lead to an eventual decline in full service availability and use.

You would have a cycle where customers shift to self-service to save money, making full service even more expensive, meaning more shift to self-service, etc, etc

That probably is what would happen. That's certainly the way it's played out in CA - it's a relatively rare (but still findable), meaningfully more expensive service for those who want it.

Why is that a bad outcome though? Few people want/need it, and it's certainly more expensive to provide, so this seems like a pretty reasonable outcome to me.

I interpreted this to mean that stations would stop offering full-service entirely, and thus they are not charging more for it since it doesn't exist.

Business interests I guess? Presumably they wrote the bill.

And so ends my joke that Oregonians are so stupid they legally can't be trusted to pump their own gas. Now only New Jersey stands as the dumbest state in the Union ;)

I lived in New Jersey for about 4 years. When I first moved there I thought it was the dumbest thing that we couldn't pump our own gas. Now that I've left, it's one of the few things I miss from NJ. Standing out at a gas pump when it's like 10 degrees and windy outside is miserable.

I don’t know, having to get out in the winter to fill the tank isn’t fun. I can sit right there and relax and then be on my way.

I know a bunch of people in PA that cross the river to fill up in NJ just for that.

On the other hand, Oregon is one of the very few states that don't have sales tax. Perhaps they're smarter than you give them credit for.

That sounds like a very one-sided argument. If you want a functioning government you're going to need money to pay for it, and if you don't have sales tax it means you have to get it elsewhere; it doesn't "make it go away".

If the argument was supposed to be 'a smarter, well-functioning tax system that pays for government facilities' then say that. But such a statement would need some references to back it up.

Sales tax disproportionately impacts the lower class. If I had the choice between no income tax vs no sales tax, I'd take no sales tax.

It isn't all or nothing. Imagine the government we could have if we all paid 90% in taxes - except I don't want that. I don't even want the kind of government that needs a budget of 40% of my income.

If you live in a rural area, the government needs a budget to repair infra and run a few programs, it doesn't need the budget of NYC. Likewise, a government that lacks a sales tax mechanism doesn't "need to get the money elsewhere", it can simply go without and adjust it's services accordingly.

Sales tax is an abomination. I walk into the store, pick something off the the shelf that says it costs $9.99, but I can't actually buy it for that. Argh.

No sales tax is awful! Instead of only getting taxed on purchases (WA), you pay 10% of your entire income to the state. It is tragic! And it also means any unreported wages are never taxed. It's pretty much the worst system possible.

Raising state income tax to 10% is not enough to exceed what I pay in sales tax in my state, so such a move would be a net positive for me.

If I were a millionaire, it would be a very different story, and I would end up paying more in taxes. But if I were that rich, a relatively small change in my tax burden wouldn't have any real impact on my lifestyle, so who cares?

I think sales taxes are generally regressive. They disproportionately impact the poor and middle class, who spend a greater percentage of their income on taxable goods and services than the wealthy.

Europe: "Por que no los dos!"

Agreed, I hate saving money! /s

i’d strongly prefer a sales tax to the high income tax, especially given how much tourism we have.

The biggest difference comes down to income. It varies a little year-by-year, but in general Oregon has the least regressive tax regime in the US, while Washington has the most regressive. If you make a lot of money, living in Vancouver can make a real difference.

This would be a good argument if they weren't so bad at allocating the taxes they do collect.

I blame that on the politicians. Hell, Oregon politicians like to just walk out of the legislature when they think they lack popular support.

Oregon has sales tax on alcohol, cannabis, tobacco, hotel rooms, gasoline, rental cars, new car purchase, etc.

We don't have sales tax here in Montana either, but I'm not sure how "smart" it is, since it basically means richer people pay less and less rich people pay more.

Generally it's the other way around -- sales tax is strongly regressive. In fact, Oregon is usually just about the least regressive tax state in the US, and Washington is just about the most regressive. All because of sales tax vs progressive income tax.

They have state income tax so I guess that offsets that....

Yep, the state still has to have some kind of tax base. Oregon ranks right in the middle, usually 24-26th amongst all 50 states in terms of total tax burden. But we are usually the least regressive (or close). As opposed to Washington, right across the river, who is frequently most regressive.

If you have travelled through the NJ portion of I-95, and stopped at any service stations, you quickly realize how stupid this law is. A single attendant trying to fill gas for 10 cars. Drivers just waiting in line for 20 minutes to fill their gas!

On the flip side, while on road trips, I've seen start the pump, then go into the store for 10 minutes to use the bathroom and buy a snack, hogging the pump spot for 8 extra minutes unnecessarily

I swear, I was the only person who would fill their tank and THEN park and go into the store.

People still do that in Oregon and New Jersey.

I could see a Uber-like service where someone picks up your car, goes to the station, has the attendant fill it, and returns it for you.

If someone is coming to your house they can just bring the gas with them. There's no need to take your car to the station at all.

There's a company called Yoshi that does this, only they come out to you with a pump on a van. One of my neighbors uses them. I guess it works, though I never go the appeal, not to mention I'm not 100% sure how it'd work with my car, since it auto locks the fuel cap unless the fob is nearby.

When I was working at Microsoft one of the parking garages had an auto detailing place in it so you could park your car and come back to it washed, waxed, cleaned, etc.

Was a nice perk and convenient since I was going to park my car there anyway.

Sure that could work but requires investment in the vans. The way I'm thinking this works you just need a guy with a cell phone & a bicycle.

I remember stopping in Portland for a fill-up around 2 AM on my drive from Seattle. It was pouring that night and the gas station clerk was standing in the doorway and watching me with the door closed. I thought it was weird and then I found out the next day that pumping your own gas is not allowed in Oregon and the guy from last night just didn't feel like getting wet. I spent the next few days spent in queues trying to get gas because there was not enough attendants serving everyone during busy hours.

Not that it matters now, but the best trick is just going to Costco. Assuming you have a membership. The lines can seem fairly long, but they have lots of lanes, all staffed, and they run cars through each lane three at a time. The only time I've seen self-service be faster is at a relatively empty station where I could slot myself in to an open pump.

You need a membership? LOL. I stopped at a few of these driving back from SF to BC and nobody ever asked me for a membership card. But then maybe they saw the BC plate and decided not to bother?

At least at all the Costcos I've been to in California, you need to first scan your membership card before your payment card. So without a membership card you can't even start the process. The attendants can override this I think, but lately they've started really cracking down on this and not allowing it.

You still can't pump your own gas in New Jersey (as mentioned in the article) and it's really annoying

I used to fill up in Camden on my way back from New York into Philadelphia, and never with my usual credit card - I had one specific for gas and automotive costs (which got me free Amtrak rides, basically), and about a decade ago, that card was regularly cloned by New Jersey gas station attendants. It never really affected me, I'd get a new card in the mail in short notice, but I was always struck by how they'd just go to Wal Mart or a convenience store, and never actually blow that much.

If you attempt to steal $1000 from 100 people it gets noticed quickly. If you steal $25 from 100 people, probably half of them don't notice at all.

This is probably what was happening. Once it gets noticed, the purchases are deemed fraudulent and the cards are closed. I had my credit card information stolen in a similar scenario. They spent $500 at Walmart and I noticed :)

You can with a motorcycle. The attendants just hover around and may help with the pump since they aren't set up for normal self-serve menus.

can you legally transfer that fuel into your car?

I don't think it's legal, but a lot of places allow it. My friend never had any issue filling up his motorcycle by himself, but it could be that the attendants didn't want a confrontation. I'm pretty sure motorcycles would be under the statutes listed here: https://www.nj.gov/labor/safetyandhealth/resources-support/l...

Diesel's fine though.

This is interesting. Had no idea that was the case. Just read it on here: https://www.nj.gov/labor/safetyandhealth/resources-support/l...

Learned driving a 1979 VW Rabbit diesel up and down the GSP and Turnpike!

You can. You just get out and start doing it and they leave you alone.

Sure, but it's not legal. Most gas attendants probably don't want to have a confrontation

As dumb as this law was, I think it will make road trips a little less magical as a Washingtonian. It was like driving into this strange land with these strange customs. That little anxiety where you pull up to what would be a routine gas fill up and have to wonder, what exactly is the protocol here? How do I not offend the locals?

My experience with the gas filling in the region was:

- pull up to station in Oregon unaware, exit the vehicle and approach the pump. An attendant runs up to me yelling "You can't do that!! That's DANGEROUS!!"

- pull up to station in Washington, sit there. Didn't realize I was in Washington and nobody was coming to pump my gas.

- not knowing whether I am supposed to tip the attendants in Oregon. Different people told me varying things.

- feeling relieved to be in Washington and being able to simply pump my own gas without talking to anyone

Some Oregonians told me they enjoyed not having to get out of their car and thought the system was great. Also many had never pumped gas in their entire lives and weren't comfortable doing it when in other states. If this system existed in very cold places I've lived like Northern Minnesota I would have been quite happy about it - I don't mind a little wind and rain, but getting out to pump gas when it's -20 with a 30 degree wind chill is not comfortable.

> How do I not offend the locals?

That sounds so weird. Washingtonians and Oregonians are frightfully similar as it is. For better or worse :). I can't imagine it being any more magical than an Oregonian wondering what the protocol is for self-service when they go across the river.

East-coaster, now in Seattle for almost three decades.

Yeah, Oregonians and Washingtonians share some strange behaviors, but there are many things pretty alien between the two.

Handling of minor riots, drunkenness (on your own property, or not -- ok, sleeping on your front lawn), tipping, public transit (in populated areas), shopping, strip clubs, ... Wow.

That's an interesting perspective, in my experience on basically all of those issues I don't see a notable difference in attitude between Oregon & Washington. There's a pretty big shift in mindset going to the east side of either state, but west of the Cascades it might as well be the same state.

We're almost identical, which is one reason why the gas thing is so weird: these seemingly identical people have an entire set of unknown customs around an everyday activity. I wouldn't call it magical. I would call it uncomfortable. Glad to see the end of it.

The interesting bit is yet to come. Show me the YouTube compilation of Oregon drivers using a fuel pump for the very first time. I bet you 90% will be issues with payment and not the physical act of refueling the tank.

Yeah this is definitely an interesting situation. I remember another state started allowing it a few years ago and there were quite a few issues. I can't blame them though, imagine having never done something before and now you have to start. Probably tricky the first time.

Growing up pumping your own gas for you parents while they run into the gas station store or something makes you forget that not everyone knows it.

> imagine having never done something before

Oh jeez. Most people in Oregon live in Portland, across the river from Washington, and have pumped their own gas many times.

I'm sure the media will find some confused elderly people to put on the evening news, though.

> Oh jeez. Most people in Oregon live in Portland, across the river from Washington, and have pumped their own gas many times.

I've never compared gas prices in Portland and Washington, but I'd expect them to be higher in Washington.

1. Washington has sales tax. Oregon does not. Washington will return that tax if the Oregonian keeps their receipt and files for a refund with the Washington Department of Revenue (it used to be that they could show Oregon ID at the time of purchase and the retailer would not collect the tax, but that changed in 2020.

2. Washington gas taxes are $0.11/gallon higher than Oregon gas taxes.

I'd thus expect Oregonians to try to avoid gassing up in Washington, and generally only do so when they are going to be going somewhere in Washington far enough from Oregon that they have to gas up there.

I live in Washington, well north of the Oregon state line, and I've helped sheepish Oregonians pump their gas once or twice. I doubt it'll be hard to find confused people of all ages.

> Growing up pumping your own gas for you parents while they run into the gas station store or something makes you forget that not everyone knows it.

How will those rental car drivers from NYC ever manage!

But honestly, in states where you can pump your gas just drive around for an 1 hour with your eyes open. You'll pass by several other cars whose gas lids aren't actually closed ...

The vast majority of Oregon drivers have pumped their own gas before in other states. I doubt there will be many issues.

I asked my brother and SIL how they feel about this. Both of them immediately said it will be a shitshow because no one knows how to pump their own gas. My brother lives in one of the rural areas where self-serve has been legal since 2017. He says he helps someone pump for the first time at least once a week.

Last week he tried to help an older man who just gave up and left.

I think you overestimate how many people have ever pumped for themselves or are willing to learn.

We've had several periods over the past few years where gas stations were outright refusing to pump, and customers had to self service. Mostly covid and heat driven, but I'd venture to say that most Oregonians have pumped their own gas a nonzero number of times.

Now the logistics at the pump may be another beast entirely...

Not likely to be a big problem for the Portland metro due to Vancouver, WA being right across the river and more or less part of the greater metro area.

I doubt this will happen. How many drivers have stayed in one state their entire lives? Especially when the vast majority of Oregonians live a few miles from the Washington border?

True, there aren't very many.

But I was shocked to learn that the wife of a friend of mine had grown up in Oregon City (15 miles south of Portland) and she had only ever traveled to Washington state and had never pumped her own gas.

I have personally seen this happen, albeit to a young person from Oregon. Still, I suspect there are far more people that do little traveling in Oregon than y’all expect

I know of people who spend their whole lives in a single town.

Those kinds of people are going to be at a disadvantage no matter what the situation.

Was driving through Oregon and had no idea about self service.

Pulled up. Put my card in, had pump in hand when this crazy person came running up and tried to take away the pump.

Much confusion for both us as I figured it was some homeless person trying to get money for a pointless job.

Something I see at some local attractions where they try to “help” with parking machines and such.

Been making fun of the state ever since and am cheering on East Oregon, breaking free from the nonsense

I can tell that most of you don't live in Oregon.

When I had a gas car up until two years ago, and I mostly got gas at CostCo. I did live in Virginia for three years. And I would say getting gas at CostCo in Oregon was 80% of the time faster than waiting for Virginians to pump their own gas at CostCo.

I'd rather not pump my own gas, and will miss the service. As will most people I know here.

Although states have laws no longer requiring it, some states still allow towns to overrule this by towns passing laws banning self-service before state self-service laws were created.

Weymouth, Massachusetts (under 10 miles from Boston city limits) is one such town where you have to let the attendant operate the pump: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/south/2013/11/14...

Also in Massachusetts is Milford, Upton and I believe Arlington. Huntington, NY is the other holdout I'm aware of.

What was funny about Oregon is self-service wasn't allowed based on county size (counties > 40,000 people). However, three counties allowed motorists to still pump their own gas at night (7PM and later I believe), just not during daytime.

I periodically deliver flowers for a florist in Weymouth. I've never had an attendant operate the pump there.

Last time I went to Weymouth and tried to pump my own fuel, I was SCREAMED AT by the attendant to not pump my fuel.

I left to my friend's house and fueled elsewhere.

Friend informed me that it's law. However not every fueling station enforces it. The one right by his apartment complex did (and his family won't go to it).

Arlington is another case where it's rare that an attendant will give you hell or stop you, but some will, because the law is on the books.

In the case of Weymouth specifically, they passed a law before Massachusetts passed a state law. Until Weymouth repeals it (it's attempted periodically), it remains on the books.

Even under the hypothetical scenario that pumping your own gas is dangerous, the prohibition would still do more harm than good: instead of learning to pump your gas as a matter of course, Oregonians would not learn it growing up and then suddenly have to do it when they take an out-of-state trip.

You know you’re an Oregonian when you’re out-of-state trying to figure out how to put gas in your rental car and the clerk at the gas station starts yelling “What are you doing??” over the P.A.

I was so confused when one day at a gas station in Vegas a group of college aged girls flagged me over and asked if I could help them fill their car. They never had before as they were from Jersey and couldnt figure out how to open the gas door. I mean in all honesty it was a push door style where you pushed and it popped open so thats a little tricky but I was amused i still had to walk them through the entire process.

And the same thing the other way around. Out-of-stater goes to Oregon, gets out to try and pump gas.

“What are you doing??”

"You've never actually set foot in a gas station, have you?" [0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_Qyk9DSUw

This is exactly what happens to every Oregonian. For most it's taking a car to college out of state.

I grew up in NJ and had to learn on the fly at college.

At the risk of sounding a bit mean, it’s very easy to figure out. Most gas stations have screens that say “insert card, select gas”.

I don’t understand how anyone struggles with that.

Seriously. The POS walks you through each step. There's a button to call an attendant for help, if you don't want to walk inside and ask how to pump your gas. Or you could stand there and watch other customers do it.

I'm having a memory of trying to pump the gas for my dad when I was a kid. I got confused about what to do, so after completely filling up, I ended up swiping the credit card again after finishing the purchase, leaving the machine open to being charged again. My dad stood there and yelled at me, and the whole time I thought, I don't know what I did, so when he's done yelling I'll just gonna go ask the attendant.

One of the more confusing parts is probably the variety of ways you can flip up a pump handle cradle to start it up.

> Close-up of unrecognizable white man purchasing gas at pump.

The caption isn’t wrong but it seems… kinda weird, no? At least for an article that’s focused on pumping your own gas. Is this a machine-generated caption?

Perhaps they used the stock photo description as a caption.

Yep - exactly that;

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/man-uses-credit-car...

Now it's New Jersey's turn to exit the dark ages.

I was always under the impression New Jersey had this law because of some sort of mafia influence. But I probably watched too much of The Sopranos, though.

In the 80s a lot of gas stations in California still had a full service line alongside a self serve line. Full service cost more for the gas. They would come to your car with the credit card slider (carbon paper), check your oil, wash your windows. It was also expected to tip.

An attendant at a gas station in Oregon actually washed my window the other day while the gas was pumping. First time I tipped a station attendant in years.

From what I hear, locals don't tip. Not a surprise given they don't have a choice (and a lot of Oregon has historically been poor, up until the recent flood of Californians).

I mean, waiting for someone to pump my gas in Oregon is ridiculous. I'm already subsidizing the guy's paycheck, and it's a complete waste of my time to wait for him to handle six other people. I'm not inclined to tip. The reason I tipped the kid at the 76 in Wilsonville was because he was the first human being I saw in recent memory who gave a shit about his job. It doesn't take much, but it's vanishingly rare. I think that's what tipping was supposed to be for originally.

There is/was full service at a gas station in Menlo Park on Sand Hill Rd - That is the only full service gas station I recall ever seeing in California

I won't say they're common in Massachusetts but you see them now and then.

When I lived in Colorado, I had a habit of checking my oil every time I filled up my tank, and would top it off when it was low.

Frankly, this sucks. We pay less for gas than surrounding states, but don’t have to get out of our cars to pump gas. That is awesome in the winter. And less anyone say I don’t know how to pump my own gas, I grew up outside of Oregon, so I know very well how to do it, I just don’t want to do it anymore.

Well that fucking sucks. Now I have to get out of my car, in the sweltering heat or bitter cold, stand there while it fills, or get in and back out, and have my hand smell like gas until I can find a sink to wash, which sure as Hell isn't going to be in the bathroom at the service station.

I'm born and raised in Oregon, and know how pump gas, but certainly don't like it.

You folks all got Stockholm Syndrome. It has been great just pulling up, giving your credit card, and having a friendly chat. Now get to be like everywhere else where cat litter is sprinkled all over the ground from people who can't be bothered to fill correctly and doing stupid shit like driving away while still attached.

1 step forward, 2 steps back.

"I know how to pump gas" and "my hand smells like gas after I pump gas" are mutually exclusive statements.

It is? It sure seems like the handles of the pumps end up smelling like gas. Maybe where you live it's better, but when I've driven elsewhere this was most certainly the case. Or maybe my sense of smell is too sensitive. ;^)

Also, grew up on a farm with its own gas pump for the vehicles. Pumped a lot of gas.

Eh, you shouldn't regularly get gasoline on your hand, for sure, but it is a legitimate point that pump handles do frequently have some smell. Not that it's ever bothered me, but I like the smell of gasoline so I'm probably not the best to ask.

Oh for fuck's sake, no, you don't. [0]

The law requires stations to still have full-service pumps. In fact, half of their pumps must remain full-service.

https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2023R1/Downloads/Meas...

[0] EDIT: I should probably clarify that my frustration at the beginning of this comment is not directed at you, but how this information is being widely missed.

Full service isn't so fun when you're in rural areas outside of working hours. I've been in a couple of dicey situations in Eastern Oregon due to closed gas stations.

If your hand smells like gas after using the pump, I'm not sure you're doing it right.

There is frequently residual petroleum, and therefore petrol stank, on the pump handle from incompetent previous users. Especially the Diesel pump.

> from incompetent previous users

Never seen this before. But in my area there are only self-service pumps except for few Shell pumps.

I think they're suggesting you should wear a glove.

I can see that you're emotional about this, but as someone who doesn't exactly love pumping gas it's nowhere near as apocalyptic as you seem to think it is.

Yes, you're quite right. I can go electric in a few years when the ranges are better.

We got our first electric car four years ago and it's been great. It's actually my preferred road trip car (Model 3 LR) these days. Even the Bolt my wife drove for a few years was mostly just fine, as long as we were staying within Oregon & Washington.

I haven't been to a gas station in months, and maybe longer than a year. And IIRC that wasn't even to get gasoline, just to refill a propane tank. We have one remaining ICE vehicle (a pickup, which tows our travel trailer) and my wife takes care of that when she goes to Costco. Even then, it only gets driven a thousand miles a year or so, so she doesn't have to do it too often. Plugging in at home and starting every day with a full battery is really nice.

Marie Antoinette would be proud of you. (I am aware she didn't say Let them eat cake or even Qu’ils mangent de la brioche but that doesn't change the metaphor.)

Wow thanks so much for posting a defense - I had no idea people thought like this. I’ve literally never once noticed my hands smelling like gas, but I’m assuming you’re just a sensitive person on that front.

In general/more substantively, I feel this is a place where the free market is an appropriate tool. If there are people like you, there should still be some full-service gas station attendants.

I think the law being repealed is great for one big reason: can you imagine having to work a job that you know for a fact is useless and unwanted by (almost) all of your clientele? That’s soul crushing shit right there

I'm with you. Moved up from California half a decade ago and I don't think I've ever self pumped gas into my current car and I thoroughly enjoy that fact. The only time I've encountered lines is once in a blue moon, the station just happens to be busy (less often than California) or at Costco...

Also grew up in Oregon. The comments on this are surreal in their misconceptions about what it's like.

1. Smelly hands is an issue. That's the thing I hate most about dealing with self-serve.

2. There is no tipping of gas station attendants.

3. The main bottleneck in throughput is the number of pumps, not the number of attendants. I can't recall ever being in a situation where the problem was shortage of staff.

4. All the stories I've heard about dealing with terrible staff were from Portland. I haven't been there enough to comment on that.

Oregon has sweltering heat and bitter cold?

I live in Oregon, and a couple years back it was 47C here at my house. The year before that, we had an ice storm that covered everything with 1.5 inches of ice and knocked down a half dozen poles within a quarter mile of my house, and countless trees.

So... yes?

Edit: Ha, those two events were actually the same year.

I've lived in places (Tracy, CA, Sacramento, Ca) where it's over 120 for 2 weeks straight in the summer, every summer. Not just that one time.

I've also lived in places (New York, Colorado) where storms like that knocking out critical infrastructure is again, a yearly occurrence.

It's true, Oregon has way more extreme temperatures than I personally thought before this interaction, but it's still milder than many other places in the country I suppose.

Portland has hit over 110F in the last few years. It's also a city with nasty ice storms.

Was there last year driving through and it was over 90F at 11:00p.m.

Depending on where you live, yes.

Oregon is more than just Portland, but even Portland summers reach the 90s on a regular basis, and we've gone over 100 degrees several times in the summer. Winter usually hovers around 30-40 degrees, but sometimes dips to the 20s, and we've definitely had 10-20 degree cold snaps.

Go outside of Portland, and you'll easily find deserts that reach 100+ degrees on a regular basis, and highlands that go below zero.

Yes? We had the unfortunate experience of moving houses during a week when temperatures hit 115 degrees (though our car claimed it was 119).

Oregon is amazing, it's got deserts, beaches, mountains (including ski areas), forests, volcanic areas...

Well said. I live in Ashland, OR, and we get 100+ in the summer and pretty darn cold and snowy in the winter.

Heat, yes.

Read the law. It allows stations to provide both self service and attendant service.

Is this how you pump gas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3j6Kl5MaPc

Zoolander has mastered the art.

https://youtu.be/4xwsZ5vC5Oc

If there's demand for a more expensive service like this the market will fill it.

Wait, there are people paid to actually fill the car for you? How does that work economically? The staff cost must be enormous. Here most stations are self service with a machine that accept credit cards. Is it common in many countries?

    How does that work economically? The staff cost must be enormous.

I'm not defending this but it seems to work pretty well economically.

According to quick Googling the average markup on a gallon of gas $0.15 so the break-even point, so the break even point for gas station attendant making $14/hour (minimum wage here in NJ) is 94 gallons of gas or perhaps ~10 fill-ups.

However, I'm not sure many gas stations even make money on the gas itself. The popular model seems to be large gas & convenience store hybrids like WaWa, Sheetz, Royal Farms, etc. I think they just sort of break even-ish on the gas and make most or all of their profit selling snacks and drinks.

Despite that, NJ gas is still cheaper than neighboring states thanks to low gas tax. So that's another way things work economically... folks don't realize the true cost of full service since they are not paying it directly anyway.

As for my personal opinion: I did not grow up in NJ! This system seems bizarre to me. But I'll say two positive things about it.

1. It is very nice for the elderly or disabled. They don't have to pay more or wait extra time relative to everybody else.

2. There's a safety benefit. In other states, if you have to gas up your car in a sketchy area, that is a VERY popular time for people to harass you for money. Robberies happen this way too. Had a guy try some crap with me and my elderly dad just the other week at a gas station in a nearby non-NJ city.

Well, if I do the calculation here, gas cost 1.8 per liter, wage for this level of work is about 30/h, average car have let's say 30l of topup, and takes 5 minutes to do, so that's 12 fill per hour or 360l, which is 5% of the cost. You are right, it's not as "bad" as I thought.

Plus:

- the attendants do multiple cars at once, up to 4 or so. while one car is filling, they go to another car at another pump.

- probably less than 1 minute of "work" per fillup (the rest of the time is just waiting for the tank to fill)

During peak busy periods I think the gas station attendants probably do 50 cars per hour each

I heard that the gas station owners say things like: "it will not change anything, as we had to close half of the pumps anyway due to lack of employees".

No, you're just not paying them enough to do this job.

It hasn't been signed by Governor Kotek yet.

https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/what-do-people-think-gov-ko...

Why was this illegal previously?

In theory gas pumping is a dangerous thing that should be left to professionals. If you pump your own gas, do you ever read the long list of safety requirements posted on the pumps? They say all number of things including: You must be electrically grounded. You must watch the pump at all times. You must not open car doors while pumping. You must not spill gas onto the ground. You must not leave the pump attached when you drive away. And so on for lists of hundreds of safety requirements, all of which are based on real (explosive) problems.

There are so many failure cases, and most people that regularly pump their own gas are naive/blase about them. (Watching people at gas stations fill gas tanks while understanding that massive list of safety requirements, being very aware that all mistakes involve an explosive substance, and counting all the violations you can spot is one "fun" way to lose a lot of faith in humanity.)

Thankfully, there's a lot of regularly inspected safety equipment compensating for how blase so many people are. Modern pumps have all sorts of auto-shut-off sensors and require all sorts of (literal) firewalls and conscious designs. These have mostly eliminated a lot of the errors from being fatal in practice, allowing so many of naive and/or blase to live another day.

In practice in places like Oregon (and Japan) this was a jobs protection thing. It saved some low wage jobs from companies that had every incentive to eliminate those jobs to scrimp and save money. It was more useful to Oregon to keep those jobs than to let them disappear.

(Arguably Oregon is allowing them to disappear only just a few years in advance of them disappearing naturally because gas pumps are likely to start disappearing altogether as EVs become more prominent. They can't protect those jobs in the EV present.)

I mean cars used to be terribly dangerous (and dirty).

EVs were originally a "Woman's Car" because a petrol car would get the operator quite dirty while an EV wouldn't stain a dress.

Relatedly and further off-topic, I still love how the now often thrown around term "range anxiety" shows up in early literature too but it was originally reversed to how people brandish it about today: early EVs had a reliable range that you knew before you set out and could be charged just about anywhere. Internal combustion was rife with inefficiencies (fuel lossage among them) and available range wasn't always obvious and early fuel gages weren't always reliable and finding sources of fuel relied on lucking into the right sorts of pharmacists/chemists. One of the original reasons for the founding of the AAA (American Automobile Assocation) was "combatting range anxiety" by getting fuel to cars stopped on the side of a road.

"Safety"

You can pump your own diesel, or your own gas for a motorcycle. But it was for Class 1 (I forget number) flammable liquids

The gas stations I went to in the Middle East (I'm not from there) all offered full-service. These were very busy locations, and the attendants generally got things moving faster than I could have. The hard part wasn't pumping the gas, but directing traffic efficiently. There are some gas stations where I live that could use this kind of help, our drivers do not coordinate very well.

After this, New Jersey (NJ) is the only state in the USA that still have laws to prohibit self pumping gasoline/diesel.

I really enjoy not having to get out of the car to pump gas in New Jersey, and it's nice not taking the chance of getting my hands all smelling like gasoline. It doesn't usually take much longer than pumping it yourself, unless you're at a very busy gas station with only one worker.

So, you could huff it, smoke it, or inject it legally before you could pump it legally (at least in Portland)? lol

Dumb law finally repelled by dumb legislatures. Dumb legistures now looking at future dumb laws. Story at 9.

I had forgotten this particular peculiarity of Oregon as the last 2 times I passed through, it was in an EV. Not that the EV transition is going to happen overnight, but one way or another, the future of gas station attendants is looking limited.

>> The Northwest Grocery Association, an advocate for retail and food suppliers, claims that jobs won’t be lost because half of gas pumps are already closed due to understaffing.

Not sure why they needed to say anthung, but the logic here is comically wrong.

Comparison to modern-day IT trends: only allowing a "Platform/Ops/IT Team" to do certain things for users. Wait for someone else to do something you could have done yourself if it wasn't for bureaucracy and a jobs program.

Now do New Jersey.

Let's see if the laws change in time to be relevant. Good thing it's not required for EVs to have an attendant plug the charging cable in for us.

How much gas was wasted in Oregon, waiting in line at understaffed stations? According to the article, many stations could only open some of their pumps due to not having enough employees, so long lines would form.

Weird. I just drove through Oregon last week. I didn't know about this law and everywhere I went, I just pumped my own gas. No one seemed to care. Maybe they were anticipating the change.

Do you have to tip your service attendant? How much, 10, 15, 20, 30%?

I used to live in Oregon. I never tipped, and they never asked. I think one time I saw someone hand a cash tip through the window, but that's it.

Honestly not having to get out of my car was really nice in some weather. Other times there's just no one there, and you and a few other drivers are out of your cars looking around wondering if you should just do it yourself.

No, there is no tipping culture for gas attendants in Oregon. Maybe with this change full service will be seen as special and tipping could happen.

Good, it’s insane to have to wait at the pump because there is one guy there and a line of cars. I think any adult who drives understands how to pump gas.

New Jersey is on the rocks, probably won't recover.

Driving from California thru Oregon, a few guys have let me pump my own fuel. Didn't realize they maybe shouldn't have!

Remember: regulations are written in blood.

This one was written in the desire of people to preserve their jobs in the face of economic change at the loss of overall efficiency and economy.

It was certainly "both". It preserved jobs. It increased safety. Whether or not you agree that the marginal safety improvement was worth the marginal "efficiency and economy" lost.

Big citation needed on the "increased safety" claim.

What is that supposed to mean in this context?

There were a lot of gas station explosions in early internal combustion engine history. It's a massive testament to technology and design (both car and pump adaptations over the decades) that these aren't so regularly occurring as they once were. But all the compensating technologies and designs don't necessarily mean that the original lessons weren't valid or that gas itself, an incredibly flammable substance, is ever truly "safe".

Any of them in self-pumping states since 1951, which is when Oregon implemented the full service law?

Sure, but we have 48 other states who seem to manage fine.

Gasoline is a dangerous and volatile substance. There are numerous incidents of people being harmed by incorrect use - not just the operator but also bystanders - and millions of dollars in facility damage occurring due to insufficient training. There is a reason why Oregon requires Class C UST Operators and above have training regarding emergencies. We should require more training, not less.

Industrial substances need high standards. Within this calendar year we have been reminded of this repeatedly: train fires and derailment, the OceanGate submarine, the recent train bridge collapse carrying hazardous materials.

Gasoline can be fatal if consumed, is a known carcinogen, and is harmful to aquatic life so it needs regulation. Here is a safety sheet to warn you of the dangers https://lasierra.edu/fileadmin/documents/risk/safety/safety-...

It's important that we treat this substance with respect. Licensed operators should be the only ones handling it routinely. But of course, there's no surprise that Big Oil would like to socialize the risks and privatize the profits, speaking nothing of the job losses this will cause.

Big Oil does not own or operate gas stations, nor do they employ gas station attendants.

Therefore, Big Oil is not affected by this change and does not care about requiring or not requiring gas stations attendants.

Finally let the dog out on its death bed.

When I drown myself in gasoline the blood will be on Oregon state senators' hands

Does that mean that there are no self-service gas stations in Oregon?

There are, but it depends on where you are or the type. For instance, out in rural Oregon there are a few stations where you can pump your own gas. Also some commercial stations allow you to pump your own gas.

Briefly during the pandemic, people could pump their own gas.

As an Oregonian, I welcome the change. The change will mostly mean not waiting for an attendant to come over.

In most cases it's just regular gas pumps, with nothing specifically to prevent you from serving yourself. Usually there's someone standing there as you pull up, but if it's cold, or if it's not super busy they may be inside. If you forget the rule and start pumping your own gas, someone runs out with a slightly panicked look and says "this is Oregon, this is Oregon!"

In addition the those given in the other answers so far, there are also gas stations on Native American reservations in Oregon and they are usually self-service.

Correct. Self-service has only been an option in rural counties (with a populated threshold), and only overnight, and even that is only relatively recent.

It was fully illegal for fuel businesses to operate self-serve stations from 1951 until very recently (like, 2017, when limited hours rural only self-serve was legalized).

This seems like a step backwards to me. If AI will make like every job obsolete then we will have to add more fake jobs like this instead of remove them. The purpose of these jobs will be to filter which people are deserving of health care and other nice things compared to the ones who aren't willing to do the fake jobs and navigate bureaucracies whose only purpose will become to filter out ones who aren't willing to persevere through them. It's how we can allocate resources in the future when capitalism is only for business-to-business purposes between AI-run corporations and everything for humans becomes similar to how 'medical devices' are currently priced and allocated, including housing, food, clothing, etc.

Just in time for the electric revolution!

Yeah that's the thing for me -- I've always wanted self-service to be legal in Oregon, so I should be happy. But I haven't put gas in a car in quite a while, so I feel pretty ambivalent about this. I've been pumping my own electrons for several years.

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