Bloomsday: The library’s one-of-a-kind copy of “Ulysses” | Hacker News Reader

Bloomsday: The library’s one-of-a-kind copy of “Ulysses”

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114 pointspepys49 comments

> including Joyce’s notation that the book was based on “The Odyssey,” without which the world might never have noticed the connection

Given that 'Ulysses' is the Roman name for Odysseus, I think we might've worked it out :p

I’m guessing this was a bit of dry humor.

It’s interesting to speculate on the most efficient argument that Ulysses takes “The Odyssey” as its primary source material purely founded on the text minus the title.

Interesting story.

Last year, I found Volume 2 of the 1932 edition from The Odyssey Press in a charity shop for just €0.50 [1]. At home I discovered a round paper sticker with the words 'Buning' and 'Djokja'. It seems it either was sold in Yogyakarta are belonged to someone who lived there [2].

[1] https://www.iwriteiam.nl/D2201.html#26

[2] https://www.iwriteiam.nl/D2201.html#27

I always feel so uncharitable when I find something special in a charity shop.

The best find yet was from oxfam in Winchester - Arabian Nights, numbered and signed by Dulac, 1914 edition - £2, as the spine was (had it restored) damaged.

Oh, and a rather nice Moxon Idylls of the King, same shop a few months later, which I think was £25.

Both are worth a fair bit, but I’ve no intention of parting with them.

Non-literary works… a tiny watercolour by Nolde, gallery stamped and all, for £5. That, I sold at auction as I’m not much of a fan of his, and it paid for the renovation of a cottage.

I think these days they’ve largely wised up, but I still can’t resist a delve whenever I go by a charity shop.

Those all seem like shockingly rare finds - do you spend a great deal of time investigating different charity shops? Most I find are full of utterly mundane second hand mass-market paperbacks.

I stick my head in pretty much any charity shop I pass to get a feel for the place, and there’s a huge variability in what you’ll find.

Winchester’s second oxfam was a goldmine, as was their municipal dump - got a lovely set of late 18th c. Anglo-Indian rosewood dining chairs for a nominal sum at the latter, which took me all of an afternoon to bring back to life. Broadstairs in Kent I also had some great finds.

It’s to do with the local populace - elderly, wealthy, and often lacking inheritors - and then they staff in the shops being just parochial enough to have no idea what they have.

Big cities, forget about it, you’re more likely to win the lottery.

I only recently discovered his letter to Nora Barnacle professing his fondness of her farts. Quite possibly the funniest thing that I have ever read, although I did feel a tinge of guilt since it was never intended for the public.

Tangential, but one of my favorite uses so far for ChatGPT has been to help me finally penetrate Ulysses. It's an almost unassailable work on its' own. Sheer genius, but hard to appreciate beyond the surface level without assistance.

I'm curious. How do you prompt it?

Mostly page by page, with text copied from Gutenberg. Generally I'll give it a paragraph (which in Ulysses can be multiple pages...) and start by saying "rewrite this in plain simple english" for the summary. Then I'll have it start rewriting in different forms, i.e. "rewrite this as a haiku" or "rewrite this as a poem in iambic pentameter with a modern setting using contemporary vernacular". Then once I understand the central themes, I can dig deeper and ask how it relates to the story as a whole, or how it ties back to events from The Odyssey.

hey cool idea. I've always wanted to read Finnegans Wake, and am trying some paragraphs now with chatgpt. I don't think it's quite what Joyce intended, nor do I know if it makes any more sense, but it is easier to read :P

For example: Rot a peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface.

becomes: There was no sign of Jhem or Shen brewing a measure of their father's malt using artificial light, and the end of the ridge was not visible in the water's reflection.

theres something like 20+ different languages used in the wake and a lot of times its only half a word from one language mixed with another word so i cant see chatgpt being able to parse out all that

I expect its training data to contain multiple copies of both it, and text explaining it. It probably works better than with a less famous book.

I'd say about 70% of it is entirely enjoyable in a fashion akin to other Modernist literature. By the standards of contemporary YA and book-club lit fic, it's challenging, but by the standards of its own day, it is in many places written to be enjoyed. While it is true that there are aspects of it that are deeply overdetermined and a wealth of intentional allusion and linguistic play, that is for the most part frosting not presumed to be enjoyed by most readers—at least not in full. It is definitely true that Joyce assumed a classical education and a familiarity with e.g. the Odyssey (but also, the English canon itself such as it was in that day) that would be sufficient to allow many readers to appreciate his sardonic riffing.

For anyone who hasn't read it, it's worth saying, the first three chapters are considerably more abstruse and intimidating than the next half dozen or more, because they follow the consciousness of an anxious and precocious intellectual young man, preoccupied with Ideas, wandering through some awkward social moments and having overly intellectual reactions to them.

But then you switch to following a middle class businessman with a lot "earthier" of interests, and things clear up a lot.

The language can still be "challenging" in a way modern readers are not used to, but, it's meant to be enjoyed.

Much of it is actually best heard, as a lot of the "play" is in the sound of the language—there is a lot of pun and allusion in the way words sound like other words.

Later in the book the two principle characters meet up and go drinking in the sketchy part of town and things can intentionally surreal as they get inebriated, but, a couple of those later chapters are actually among the most straightforward to read.

All said it is however true that we're now well over 100 years distant from the world presented, so we increasingly need notes on things that were in no way meant to be obscure.

There are some excellent books around that serve as guidebooks, which can illuminate both those details and the allusions—and give you frank advice on which chapters you can skip through.

As to why one would read this, that is just one version of, why get a broad liberal arts education at all? The default answer remains as true or false as it ever was, it's because that is how you become familiar with the assumed fabric of our civilization, and become able to understand and participate in the discourse of today. There is no end of "issues" with the historic canon, but it remains the lingua franca of "serious high culture." If you don't have any familiarity with it does not mean you aren't living a full life; but it does mean that there is a sizable territory of shared public life that is closed to you, which might provide a rich set of tools for understanding issues that appear permanently part of the human condition.

Whatever else is true, the canons we have represent the collective curated coursework we have produced which recapitulates the intellectual underpinnings of contemporary society in most of its aspects, and provide historical perspective on the hows and whys of where we are. It is from this stuff that contemporary politics, science, religion, art, and moral reasoning emerged, for example. We are a lot more savvy now but all the deep serious mistakes and flaws of the classical canon—but it remains even in this, a common territory and a common point of reference.

Anyway, if you want to read just one bit? The "Sirens" chapter read aloud is amaze-balls.

I don't agree that contemporary literature in Joyce's time was as challenging to read as Ulysses. Many of the typical selections presented with Joyce are much easier reads - even stuff like Catch 22. The construction of Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake especially make it seem that this style of writing was deliberate. I can say it makes these books unique, as few other authors try and capture the style of the mind of a drunk man wandering down the street and then taking a piss. But taking that and trying to add it into the serious culture of literature makes me skeptical of the curators, who seem to have an undue fondness for drunk pissing.

>Many of the typical selections presented with Joyce are much easier reads - even stuff like Catch 22

Catch 22 is a foundational (practically definitional) postmodern work, 40 years separated from Ulysses. I'm not sure what you mean here.

I was just thinking of contemporaries in time, not genre. Catch 22 stuck in my mind as one of the harder ones to read. Kafka is listed as a modernist, but he's dead simple.

Just before the pandemic, I was taking a Stanford Extension class on Ulysses. A few students were taking it for credit, but most of us were there purely because we wanted to be. I'd always wanted to read it.

The teacher had been teaching that book since the early 70s. We had a guidebook to help us through it. We all had a particular edition, so the teacher could say "on page 341" and we all could go there. Whatever else you can say, this was about as ideal an environment as you could wish for.

Meh. I can see it was groundbreaking in its time, but now? Outlived its shelf life. Stream-of-consciousness was revolutionary, I give him credit, but now it's routine.

Even at the time, Einstein, Freud, and Darwin were revolutionizing modern thought, and Joyce was resolutely ignorant of them.

People say, "What about all the symbolism? What about all the word play?" Again, I say, meh.

Anna Karenina -- now that's a great novel.

"one man gathers what another man spills"

Out of curiosity: have you read the book?

I did read some Joyce but not much.. I was not hooked on it or a fan, myself. The experience of a mature adult reader, "seeing the shortcomings of this work" is not particularly praise-worthy even if completely true, in my opinion. Different personalities and intellects may experience that literature at different stages of life, in character development themselves, in retrospect... A work of "art" let's say.. literature.. is not only the words or the story, it is an experience for the reader, and product of the author and their team of teams, the printers and publishers themselves. It is a toe into "cancel culture" to dismiss as trivial or wanting, a work that has in the large, affected many people. Maybe every word of that review is real, to that person, but it does not much good, or show any respect, to spoil it that way.. hence my comment

Your comment seems directed at other people. My comment was in no way, shape, or form "cancel culture." I read the book with good will and much effort; you did not.

Debates about the continuing worth of a piece of art are always relevant and worthwhile. Other people responded honestly to the comment. Sorry you can't.

wait, which part of my comment was not honest?

Interesting. I just finished reading Ulysses with a group of friends, and I thought it was a work of absolute fucking genius. One of the best things I've ever read--possibly the best thing I've ever read--hands down.

It's not just stream of consciousness; it's the way each chapter is structured differently, has different themes and different form. The stream of consciousness comes and goes--some sections are easy, and some are incomprehensible. One chapter is a play; one chapter is a series of pastiches of different English styles throughout the past millennium; one chapter is an absurdly over-erudite lecture on Shakespeare; one chapter is an orgasm. I learned a lot about Irish history.

The language is absolutely exquisite with endless onomatopoeia. I kept switch back and forth between listening to and reading it, or doing both simultaneously.

It was incredibly hard to get through and absolutely amazing.

Yeah, I've heard all that. Also struggled through the part where he says the same thing in 14 different styles (if that's the number).

Impressive and I'm sure it was difficult as hell to write, but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please.

> but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please.

Certainly there are some chapters/styles where he's playing for the critics. But I thought it did a brilliant job of creating a modernist hero (e.g Bloom snuggling his wife's butt and her farting in his face). For me, the most impactful part was showing Bloom from so many different perspectives. Seeing him in less heroic settings (like what he does on the beach) or from his wife's perspective gives him depth you rarely see in literature. It's ultimately a story about nothing, so if you're not into a hyper-stylized prose based exploration of Bloom, then it won't be for you. I think the challenging aspects can work to force a reader to think more critically about some parts (just so they can make it through and understand what they're reading) and connect with things in a way most books won't ever engage a reader. Lots of readers do find some deeper understanding of the human condition, but it won't be for everyone, especially someone who cares more for a plot than an experiment in narrative structure exploring a flawed modernist hero.

OK, good answer, thanks.

For me, I don't think characters have to be "likable" or even "hate-able" but I do like to find them interesting. I found I wasn't interested in any of the three main characters.

Yeah, it sounds like you prefer plot or character development. I don't know that Bloom is supposed to be super interesting (not much interesting happens because it's a relatively mundane regular day). My take was that it was more of a philosophical exploration of an everyman and what makes him tick, with a lot of experimental prose styles. Some of the novelty has faded over the years as it's pretty common to see flawed characters (we had a whole modernist and then post-modernist movement after - and arguably highly influenced by - Ulysses). The things that would have shocked readers when the book came out would no longer shock readers today, but for some, the psychological exploration of Bloom and his relationships still holds up.

> it sounds like you prefer plot or character development

hmm. I don't know if I'd call Anna a plot or character novel, but certainly the characters do exemplify moral and/or religious themes, against the backdrop of Russian society. And there certainly IS a plot :)

A writer I particularly admire is Dickens, who could give you two pages on some minor character and make him or her absolutely unforgettable. Although I can't name one, but maybe not so unforgettable /s

What's the benefit of writing any story in this format, instead of just making a story that is just a really good Shakespearean play, or a really good pastiche of some era, or...?

> What's the benefit of writing any story...

My point exactly. It was difficult, it was an impressive feat, it was ground-breaking, but in the end what do you get out of reading it?

Why would a English literature expert be expected to be on top of the cutting edge of science?

Why is Anna Karenina a great novel?

In that case you might enjoy On Moral Fiction by John Gardner. Anna Karenina is his favorite example of a good novel, and he disparages the things you are meh about in Ulysses.

I general I agree with you, but to me Anna Karenina was sooo boring. Maybe I just wasn't ready for it. David Copperfield or anything by Dostoevsky are more for me.

Anna was boring for you? OK. By the way, if you say The Brothers Karamazov did it for you, I'm really going to be amazed.

I have a different book by John Gardner.

Joyce never intended for the book to only be read by university professors - he was a man of the people and intended for the book to be read by ordinary people. Still a guide is kinda necessary when tackling it.

The RTÉ radio production is essentially word-for-word complete, fully cast & wonderfully performed. It’s my recommended on ramp to the novel for anyone intimidated by the prose style.

Ironically (intentionally?), Joyce simultaneously wrote wonderfully for the spoken word form, but insisted on typography that makes who’s saying what often obscure.

https://www.rte.ie/culture/2022/0610/1146705-listen-ulysses-...

i must check that out when i get home.

frank delaney did short podcasts every week where he went through a few lines at a time. he never got to finish the full book unfortunately but its what i usually recommend to people because its very casual and easy to listen to

The audiobook, narrated by Jim Norton, is also great. His delivery is quite engaging, and any parts that might be a bit impenetrable while reading flow over you, and you can hook back in later.

>Joyce never intended for the book to only be read by university professors - he was a man of the people and intended for the book to be read by ordinary people.

Honestly, he intended the work to be read aloud publicly, in the same vein of epic storytelling as The Odyssey. There's even a recording of him reading a few pages, it's absolutely mesmerizing: https://youtu.be/ZhW0TrzWGmI

I saw a production of Ulysses twice in the Abbey Theatre in Dublin on two separate runs. I had already read the book, but seeing it performed was a completely different experience, like seeing a Shakespeare text performed in film or on stage. Similarly, I saw an adaptation of the Cyclops episode in the New Theatre, which was incredible. I know Ulysses is unfilmable, but I'd like to see someone like Paul Thomas Anderson try.

He horribly misjudged what ordinary people enjoy, then.

> Still a guide is kinda necessary when tackling it

I've always disagreed with this idea that you need a "guide" to read some books. Guided reading inspires a specific reading of the book, which may not always be the reading that speaks most to the reader. To me it's equivalent to taking a walk with a geologist, or a biologist, through a natural park. While you will certainly see aspects you would not have picked up without them, you may expend so much absorbing these specifics that you neglect the aspects that speak most to you.

In university, I remember many professors dismissing some of my favorite books as "requiring guidance" to read. The thinly veiled implication was that they were lost on me. Which is rather silly. Instead of looking for the specific academic aspects of the books (which were indeed lost on me, and still are), the aspects of the books which I took the most away from were non-academic.

I had no idea Joyce was banned in America for a while.

Thanks, the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice.

It's got graphic descriptions of not only sex but bodily functions like menstruation.

Not the worst things to write about. Kinda normal things really. Everyday things.

Everyday things, required to propagate ourselves as a species, and yet bizarrely squeamish to certain populations. My father, a normal person born in New England, still can't believe that people use the word "pregnant" in public. He expressed this to me as recently as a few weeks ago.

Apt the time it was unprecedented

Website is rendering without the content for me - anyone else?

> The final twist: Benoist-Méchin grew into a prominence of his own as a historian and journalist who enthusiastically collaborated with Nazi Germany’s takeover of France in World War II. He was condemned to death as a traitor after the war and eventually had his sentence commuted after seven years in prison.

In total, Benoist-Méchin was interned for 10 years: arrested in Sept. 44, sentenced in June 47 and released in Nov. 54. He went on to write well-respected history books; I have read a couple of them. I knew about his conduct during WWII but never knew he was friends with Joyce.

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