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Comment by disruptiveink | Hacker News Reader

Xbox ultimately made the same mistake as Nintendo with the Wii / Wii U.

Just give the console a number. And. Increment.

That's it. You can still have Pro / Slim / whatever models, but I have no idea why Nintendo and Microsoft both willingly threw away the easiest marketing strategy there is: your kid has the 4 and the 5 just came out. 5 is larger than 4 therefore the kid knows what to ask, regardless of age. The parent also knows what to buy because 5 is larger than 4.

Nothing convinces me that this isn't the reason why new Playstation models sell like crazy before any decent games are out. 4 was larger than 3 and 5 is larger than 4. That's it.

Nintendo got out of it by starting a new line of consoles with the Switch, but Microsoft's marketing just keeps giving this one away to Sony for free. It's unbelievable.

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I don't think Xbox made the same mistake. Because while the naming is pretty bad, people do actually know it's the latest generation console.

The Wii U on the other hand completely flew under most people's radar. People were over the Wii and then Nintendo releases the Wii U. Most people thought it was an addon tablet because that's all they kept showing, just Wii remotes and the tablet.

I just had to look up the difference between the series X and S. It wasn't obvious to me. It's not even obvious which is the more powerful model, there's no mention anywhere of what X and S stand for. Is 'S' Small or Super? And I guess the 'X' is for eXperience.

Compare that to PlayStation 4/PlayStation 4 Pro/PlayStation 5 (and yeah, I'm not going to argue that 'pro' isn't a stupid designation for a slightly-more-powerful-than-before console), but it's at least obvious where they sit in the lineup.

You didn't play your professional games on your PlayStation Pro? Office Simulator 2017, Mortgage Agreement 8, Car Repayments Xtreme?

X > S

Seems pretty intuitive..

So, this¹ is what I should buy?

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One#Xbox_One_X

You could. Or you could buy the Series X.

It should be pretty obvious that Series > One > 360.

I think it’s absolutely baffling that somebody might find such a perfectly logical and reasonable naming system confusing.

I agree that x > s.

But why does Series > One?

Are you pulling his leg calling this intuative and obvious?

What is obvious about series being better than 360? why would someone think that if they were just presented with those names and nothing else?

Why would someone think x is better than s without doing any research?

Yes the user is being sarcastic.

Yea, I couldn’t tell. It felt like it, but the way he kept responding implied that maybe he really did think it was simple for some reason I wasn’t getting.

Xbox Series S > Xbox One X

And not to be confused with the previous generation Xbox One X.

AFAIK it’s X, S, Series X, Series S.

AFAIK, S is “no physical media”

AFAIK, “series” means “fancy”

I’ve only ever purchased XBox consoles and currently rock an XBox One.

Lemme fix your marketing, XBox: call the “no drive” ones “cloud” or “online” or “vapor” or whatever.

Call your next one 9006 so it is simultaneously “over 9000”, and puts you back in the semver race with PlayStation. /s

I do not believe that you tried to figure out which was more powerful and it was not immediately obvious. MS even made a page comparing them and highlights the differences: one can do 12 teraflops the other 4. One does 4k the other only 1440p.

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/consoles/compare

Yes the names are not as easy to compare as PS5 vs PS4, but upon cursory investigation it's blatantly obvious that the X is more powerful than the S.

> upon cursory investigation it's blatantly obvious that the X is more powerful than the S.

The part I emphasize is exactly the argument of the person you're responding.

>MS even made a page comparing them

You wouldn't google Playstation 4 and 5 to find out which is which. I have no idea why Microsoft would do this. Try sending your mother out to buy one. Would she know which one to buy and understand the difference?

The person you’re responding to’s point is that you know that a PS5 is better than a PS4 without cursory investigation because you know 5 > 4. When you’re dealing with mass market consumers, there are many that won’t perform cursory investigations of products. Busy parents, technologically illiterate grand parents, kids with limited internet access, etc.

The commenter said they didn't know the difference based on the name AND once they did:

"it's not even obvious which is the more powerful model, there's no mention anywhere of what X and S stand for."

I believe the point they were trying to make is that the naming is confusing for consumers. Even if you’re aware of the difference, the naming is still confusing. If someone with knowledge of the product can’t figure out the naming, then how can anyone else?

The point is, it's not _obvious_. You need to get three pages deep on xbox.com to see the specs side by side.

At a glance the difference between the X and the S could be like the PS4 vs PS4 Slim, or the PS5 and PS5 Digital Edition.

Right, blame the user for not doing sufficient research to understand which letter is better. /s

Having to open a comparison page means it's not immediately obvious. Picture an office worker who has one December evening to run through the mall, buy and wrap gifts for the whole family. Opening his phone, googling the differences between X and S, and also between Xbox series X and Xbox one X? He'll just take Playstation 5 instead.

It really isn't obvious at all. In the past, the slimmer model tends to come out after a few years, maybe with some minor upgrades. Having two released at the same time within the same generation is just... stupid.

But people purchasing an xbox will see the price difference between the models and immediately understand what they should buy.

> Because while the naming is pretty bad, people do actually know it's the latest generation console.

Do they? I don't. At this moment, I couldn't tell you the name of Microsoft's newest console, because their naming convention is so convoluted. Meanwhile, I can tell from a glance that the PS5 is newer than the PS4.

Granted, I'm not a console gamer, but neither are (most) parents buying consoles for their children.

"Ehh, people will know what we're talking about" seems like a haphazard marketing strategy.

I work in the industry and mostly play on consoles (admittedly Sony’s) and even I’m not sure at first glance. I have to stop and think a bit every time.

I have no idea which is more modern. I suspect most people who don't console game are in the same boat. This feels exactly like Wii/WiiU to me.

I used to own Xbox consoles but the last few generations have only had Playstation (and PC). I would have absolutely no idea which of the last 3 (4?) released Xbox versions came before which. The naming is horrible. The X is top dog with S below? What was the last generation even called? Where there 1 or 2? I have no idea even though I have used it (them?) many times at a friend's house.

Edit: I googled it. Xbox X and the old one is Xbox One X? That is simply hilariously stupid.

It's not just stupid, it's demeaning to the audience. Be like Intel/BMW and give your models numbers that roughly correlate to the performance/size/features.

Sony/Apple/Samsung have this one solid - just release the next semver and market the hell out of it. Don't make me confused when I'm thinking about paying you money. Note: even the ones that aren't "on the version treadmill" do poorly: "iPhone mini" vs. "Samsung Fold" etc are niche products and exist to essentially sell the mainline item.

I honestly though the Wii U was an accessory until years after it was released, and at this moment now I couldn't tell you whether an Xbox X or S is better. Is S better because 'S-tier' is the top rating, or is X better because 'X'box? Either way could make sense, you can't intuitively divine this.

It wasn't very long ago that kids were struggling to get their parents to stop calling xbox and playstation "the nintendo". Young parents today are probably comfortable with the brands of xbox and playstation, having grown up with those brands, but expecting them to be up-to-date on the latest models isn't smart. There can be a considerable gap in understanding between those who are tuned into gaming matters and those who might be making the actual purchase. The value of simple branding should not be underestimated.

I am somehow interested to read the news about this ans I still dont know which Xbox is the latest.

If they want me to check on google, they failed.

Also it is funny that you attack people on.. hacker news for not understanding the versioning.

It just proves that microsoft does it in a bad way.

I mean... Xbox, Xbox S Series, Xbox 1, Xbox X, Xbox 360... it's totally obvious, isn't it?

Haha I genuinely have no idea how to sort that list, except that it starts with the Xbox.

There's probably an entire department within Microsoft that makes their own alphabets and number systems. 95 comes after 3.1, right, but before 10? And XP is bigger than 365 but smaller than One? If you have a series of something, it obviously stands to reason that X is bigger than Vista.

But fret not, there's an easy shortcut to see which Microsoft product is newer. Just try them side by side and whichever has more advertisements is newer.

This seems like it assumes the Xbox's target audience are kids, which doesn't automatically follow. It's like thinking rock music is greasy kids' stuff: Update your mental model. The MTV generation has grandkids now.

In short, Ford doesn't release the Ford 5 because it knows the Ford 4 is old news. (Also, get a horse, ya durn kids.)

Anyway, research:

https://www.windowscentral.com/heres-some-interesting-stats-...

> Most Xbox One gamers reside in the 25- to 34-year-old bracket, followed closely by the 35- to 44-year-old bracket.

> 56 percent of Xbox One owners live with a married spouse or partner, 10 percent live alone, and 23 percent live with their parents.

> Many Xbox One owners have an annual income of around $75,000.

I'd say I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, but both of those references are outdated these days.

Sure they do, Ford released the 2022 Fords the year after the 2021s.

Is the Ford Focus newer than the Ford Escort?

These statistics just prove the parent comments point.

No, they don't. They prove the exact opposite.

Isn't the parent the "owner" even if they never use it and it's for the kid?

Do you have evidence that's what's happening?

Yes. Every household ever.

Source: Trust me, bro.

Nintendo wants to communicate in their platform what they are targeting, so it will usually make sense. In comparison, Xbox tried, but always failed with clearly communicating their names.

I don't think non-numbers are a bad naming scheme, just the simplest. It means its easiest to keep up with and archive, but it can also mean it's hard to tell audiences what fancy new features you're marketing. If the Wii was the Nintendo 5 and the Switch was the Nintendo 7 I'm not sure if it would be quite as snappy in consumer minds.

The difference is that Microsoft released consoles with very similar purposes and names in the same generation.

Labelling the Switch as a new version of the Wii doesn't make much sense because it occupies a different niche, comparable to PlayStation/2/3/4/5 vs the PlayStation Portable.

PlayStation's addition of "Pro" in it's own naming scheme clearly distinguishes the more powerful console. Delaying the release of the pro model until later in the generation's lifecycle also helps reduce friction.

> 5 is larger than 4 therefore the kid knows what to ask, regardless of age.

I don't know a single kid that would not know which models are current gen and which are better or worse. Argument about non technical parents is valid but any kid today will know which Xbox to get and will tell their parents. Kids these days know much more stuff than you seem to think, they spent 1/3-1/4 of their lives on the internet. My 11-12yo nephews built PCs just following youtube guides, they do video montages of their Fortnite games to put on youtube and almost every single friend of theirs is similarly familiar with current tech.

Xbox having lower numbers is purely fault of PS dominating the market over last decade, people will continue buying it cause they trust Sony to deliver exclusives and they have existing game libraries. I converted two Sony fanboys to Xbox with Game Pass and they both love it. Noone these days buys a PS "because they are confused with Xbox naming", 5 minutes of googling answers any questions. The only people who might really have an issue with this are boomers+ who are not even going to buy a console for themselves cause "games are for kids and a waste of time".

You have to go younger. My son is in first grade, he knows we have a PS bit he couldn't tell you what number. His friend is in kindergarten and loves his Xbox, and I'll wager a box of donuts he couldn't tell me what Xbox he has.

If he doesn't know, no way grandma and grandpa are going to be able to get him a birthday present.

The Xbox line goes: Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X.

The kids may know and understand this, but parents may not. If you go to a store today, you will only find the latter two, and you won’t have an issue picking the one your kid asked for (i.e. the X). But when both generations were on sale, the parent might end up buying "One X" instead of "Series X" because it’s cheaper, or buying "360" instead of "One" because it’s clearly bigger (by 359 no less).

15+ years ago when I worked at Target's electronic dept over the summer, it was hard enough for parents to track whether the PS2 or PS3 was the latest one much less where a "Wii" or "360" fit into that.

The Xbox line-up is just comical. I walk through any gaming department and see an "S", "X", or sometimes even both "S" and "X" on Xbox games. If it was just "Xbox 7" and "Xbox 8", you'd at least have some idea of what's going on.

It's like someone who knows nothing about cars trying to figure out SE vs LE vs CE vs XLE trimmings when looking at accessories.

This is coming from the company that in an attempt to count to 10 (and only ten) went "1, 2, 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10, 11".

Poor forgotten ME.

> Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X.

Wtf, there are two different S's and two different X's? I thought 'Xbox One _' and 'Xbox Series _' referred to the same products.

In fact the One and the Series are the different generations.

Xbox One _ :: PS4.

Xbox Series _ :: PS5.

Nintendo has always done this though.

NES -> SNES

GB -> GBC, GBA, GBA SP

DS -> DSi, 3DS, 2DS

I’m unfamiliar with Nintendo’s product line and this example proves the point. If I were buying a DS for a kid I’d have no idea which one is the best.

Every DS could play the same games at the same level of quality. So, unless a kid really wanted a specific console feature, it didn't really matter if you bought the wrong one.

Xbox is the opposite, if you get the cheaper console games will look worse and/or run at lower FPS. It only has one option for internal storage, leaving you with ~360gb after accounting for the OS, five or six modern games can fill that pretty easily. Official external storage costs about as much as the console itself.

For many people the trade-offs won't matter but it does make the PlayStation a much simpler choice if you're looking for a console for a kid that doesn't already favour one or the other.

> Just give the console a number. And. Increment.

Microsoft has never been able to do that.

If Xbox is dying, Game Pass killed it, not the (admittedly stupid) naming conventions.

Everyone subscribes to Game Pass, but nobody buys many games.

That would be a good thing for Microsoft. I don't think the data supports this. A quick google search showed that there are 25 million Game Pass subscribers and 125 million people in the Xbox ecosystem. There are also still plenty of games that aren't included in Game Pass.

In this context it sounds like the war is either not lost, or, maybe, there is no war and both ecosystems are thriving in different ways.

Kind of like how Apple hasn't "lost" any "laptop war"

Good for Microsoft. Bad for developers. And a console is nothing without the games.

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