Born in Babylon: The spread of Rastafari | Hacker News Reader

Born in Babylon: The spread of Rastafari

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108 pointstintinnabula86 comments

I love reggae and most of the vibes rasta people bring. But I really cannot listen closely to most of the common lyrics.

Praising Haile Selassi sounds only good, when you don't know much about his actually reign.

I recommend Ryszard Kapuściński's book about him:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor_(book)

(And then there are Ragga hits like Chi Chi mon from TOK, which translates to burn the gays)

So in my conclusion, most of the theoretical theological ideology/religion is wishful thinking of a oppressed minority/ex slaves in poverty who dream of a better future.

And some of them turned to fanatic bigoted racists themself. And some just want to live the good life, avoiding conflict wherever possible. With those you can get along very fine..

(And my favourite reggae band alive - groundation - is mostly white and not from Jamaica, but I really don't care about that)

As someone from the region Haile is one of the worst leaders of Ethiopia, even the Omnicidal DERG was better on some points than him. He was an insane racist slaveowner usurper who was put in power by British arms, fed his dogs steak while millions starved, broke every promise he made etc.

He’s so toxic in modern Ethiopia both Amhara and Oromo nationalists say that he’s from the other ethnicity, he’s mostly worshipped by Caribbean and west Africans who don’t know anything about Ethiopia or Abyssinia.

Also that book is wonderful. The Shadow of the Sun is an amazing book about his travels in Africa in the 90’s.

I'm sure you are correct. But as with any religion it's the general abstract idea, not the specifics (which in an objective view, are mostly myth and fable) that is important.

In this case the idea of a downtrodden oppressed people who seek righteous living and a liberator and protector and a possible better future ahead.

I'm a big reggae fan and recall during certain periods of life how much it spoke to me when I felt oppressed and was trying to do right in life, but was abused by systems of greed and evil materialism but I had to keep on trudging ahead.

I think it's a somewhat common theme of humanity. Well, that, plus the beat is awesome lol.

Reggae is so deeply & necessarily intertwined with the religion. It's like saying you like gospel or byzantine chant except for the christian lyrics. The forms simply don't make sense when you separate them from their religious context.

Anyway you've got ska, rocksteady, dub, dancehall, and a legion of white californian groups that should fit your sensibilities more easily. Religions are allowed to have their own thing even/especially when it makes outsiders uncomfortable.

> Reggae is so deeply & necessarily intertwined with the religion.

> The forms simply don't make sense when you separate them from their religious context.

As a big reggae fan I totally disagree.

Although there's indeed a lot of roots reggae talking about Selassie and religion, there's also a huge lot of reggae that's not about that. There's even, to me, lots of actual roots reggae that is not about religion but about poor people's struggle.

Lots of reggae is also purely about ganga / smoking (Peter Tosh "Legalize it").

Stuff I listen to... Max Romeo's "Chase the Devil" (and many other Max Romeo songs), Ranking Dread "Superstar" (where he sings about... famous reggae singers), many reggae love songs (Marcia Griffiths "Hold me tight"), John Holt "Police in Helicopter", Horace Andy "Skylarking".

One of my all time favorite: Zap Pow "This is Reggae music". No religion. No poor people's struggle. Just pure reggae sound, with lyrics about... Reggae itself (it's an amazing one, check it out).

There's also more recent anti-consumerist reggae, like Mike Love "Permanent Holidays" (link because this is sooo good):

https://youtu.be/fU7hZ3smj0g

So yeah big disagree. Not all reggae is about religion, far from it.

I didn't say all reggae is about religion. I'm pointing out that it's a form that is historically connected to a specific religious practice, and rooted in a particular religious worldview.

That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it from outside that religion or worldview. But it means if you find fault in the point of view it takes, you should find another music to listen to not wish this one was different for you.

For me, I practice an abrahamic religion though not rastafari and a lot of the religious sentiment and imagery resonates with me. Again it's not that all reggae songs are religious. But it's there you know. I find it pretty grim how quick & comfortable people are trying to ignore it, or downplay its significance.

>Reggae is so deeply & necessarily intertwined with the religion. It's like saying you like gospel or byzantine chant except for the christian lyrics.

This hasn't been true for a very long time. Just look at Lover's Rock and the really big guys there

- Beres Hammond - Gregory Isaacs - Dennis Brown - Sugar Minott - Ken Boothe - Alton and Hortense Ellis

This certainly is not a religious song

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lJEQnmDnIq8

"It's like saying you like gospel or byzantine chant except for the christian lyrics."

I do actually (some of it, sometimes). Also yes, there is lots of reggae without Haile Selassi.

Also I can make a difference between what other people mean with some words and what I understand by them. Meaning to Rastafari Haile Selassi stands for a great and just ruler. So I can go with those vibes while listening, even though for me the historical Haile Selassi was just another corrupt monarch.

I don’t think this is how music works. The people who make music might have a certain worldview, and they might express that worldview in their lyrics, but it’s totally possible to enjoy that music without agreeing with or even understanding the lyrics or worldview. Just ask the millions of teenagers around the world who spend the second half of the 20th century enjoying English language rock music without even knowing English.

> It's like saying you like gospel or byzantine chant except for the christian lyrics.

People do that. People also like John Lennon or Rage Against The Machine without turning into communists (much to the artists’ disappointment, I think). Music can sound good to you without you having to agree with the lyrical content.

"People also like John Lennon or Rage Against The Machine without turning into communists (much to the artists’ disappointment, I think). "

Or The Refused. They added a (simple) manifest to their LP and literally expected that wherever they were touring, uprising would follow.

> Anyway you've got ska, rocksteady, dub, dancehall, and a legion of white californian groups that should fit your sensibilities more easily.

Why did Ras Trent immediately come to mind? https://youtu.be/TcK0MYgnHjo

This is the best copy I could find.

Eddie Murphy SNL kill the white people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vc5igOAJ7k&ab_channel=takan...

It's an old dynamic.

After reading his bio in Wikipedia he does seem like a martyr to me.

Ryszard Kapuściński, jugding by his first and last name, seems to be disqualified to be writing about ethiopian rules on account of heavy conflict of interests.

If that is your take, ok.

But maybe you should read more about Kapuściński than his name, because I do think he was qualified to write about power and oppression. No matter the skin color.

I would very much like to hear from him his detailed opinion on notorious communists Dzerzhinsky, Menzhinsky and Vyshinsky (not sure what is the correct Polish spelling) before anything else.

He is not alive anymore, so he cannot tell you. And regarding about what he thought about those people, you can really find in any of his books.

But like other people already hinted at you: the book about Haile Selassi was mainly a attack on his corrupt system back at home. By examining the power mechanisms and corruption of King Selassis court(and publishing it step by step) he managed to publish a antiauthorian criticism on corrupted buerocracy in general, in such a corrupted system. But he could do so, because when critizized from above he said: "Do you want to imply, that this corrupt monarchist court is comparable to our democratic peoples republic elected comitees?"

Which they could not admit, even though they understood how it was meant, because yes, they were just as corrupt. Unchecked power works the same in a monarchy, than it does in socialism or anywhere else.

He simply hated corruption and opression and he lived voluntarily among the poorest of the planet, to write about their lives and their struggles.

This sounds like a load of bullshit. We are talking about sub-Sakharan Africa. "Corruption" is a very underwhelming accusation in the land of racial segregation, endless wars, genocides and hyperinflation on wheelbarrows-of-banknotes scale.

I also do not care about all that signalling nonsense.

Dude. You are free to keep your knowledge about things without reading about them, if you like. I don't actually know what your point here is at all, except that you want to continue worship or admire Selassi because he happened to be black?

> We are talking about sub-Sakharan Africa [...] the land of racial segregation, endless wars, genocides and hyperinflation on wheelbarrows-of-banknotes scale.

Citation needed.

What does being Polish have to do with writing a book about Haile Selassie? It's sort of written on the tin that the book is used a sort of a mirror to reflect the absurdity of communist rule on Poland, but where is the "conflict of interests"? The book is drawn from interviews and primary sources.

Polish are firebrand catholic christians, whereas Ethiopia is a notable orthdox christian country.

So unless you are going to fact check every single claim in the book, I'd skip it.

Do you know anything at all about Ryszard Kapuściński? The guy reported on 27 coups and rebellions on the ground and there are some criticisms of his work but none based on religion. It's not even clear that Kapuściński was catholic, he was born in Belarus.

This sort of blanket dismissal based on ethnicity or presumed religious affiliation is just stupid and doesn't belong here.

Almost everything you get to read about history ranges from heavy spin to bullshit.

A good example of that is how English (mainland and colonist) got to badmouth Spanish handling of natives whereas their own deeds were an order of magnitude worse, until very recently.

Disregard the message and examine the messenger.

this is just nonsense.

groundation is really great and among my favorite reaggae band alive as well with israel vibrations and 10 ft ganja plant

I would encourage any of the overly comfortable users of this site to spend five minutes in the company of a Rastafarian. Not your weed dealer that’s wearing a Bob Marley shirt. I guarantee your attitudes towards the peacefulness of that movement will change very quickly. They are seen as unwelcome influence in much of the Caribbean.

While I do agree with you to the certain degree - I'd add a side note that the movement does not share a single dogma nor there's a body that could lay down one. Rastafari as a movement is splintered into smaller sects (or houses or mansions as they are references within the movement) - each one holding varying views of what ever topic at hand. And as you pointed out some of them are not very friendly - that's always the case when fundamentalism enters the picture.

But that said, I would personally argue that statement that the "whole movement" or every "rasfafari" falls into your assumption is 100% not true. On comparison - If I'd point out that every christian in States is fundamental lunatic there would be people wanting to lynch me.

And just to point out; this is purely anecdata on my own behalf. I've been in contact with various people / mansions for past 33 years and i am "officially" part one of the biggest / global houses but i dont really go under that banner anymore because of the fundamental views of some people within those circles make me sick. But its still not the whole movement.

> If I'd point out that every christian in States is fundamental lunatic there would be people wanting to lynch me.

Thus proving your point to be correct?

If you don’t get the point at all, sure

Do you understand the difference between "every" and "some"?

Except there wouldn’t and nobody would care

Also ask them who the indigenous people of Southern Africa are. They will never acknowledge that it's the Khoisan and that the Bantu are colonizers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan

As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari points out, there is much diversity among Rastafari, including "black supremacism" and "Other Rasta sects believe that an "African" identity is not inherently linked to black skin but rather is about whether an individual displays an African "attitude" or "spirit"."

There are Koisan Rastifari. In https://journal.fi/suomenantropologi/article/download/60344/... you can see mention of separate Rastafarian groups:

> At the time, he was the sole Khoisan Rastafari in this predominantly Xhosa neighborhood. ... King Yellow often conceptualized himself as culture breaker or a mediator occupying a third position between Khoisan and Xhosa ethnicities, which he clearly distinguishes as separate groups existing in the Rastafarian movement ... "You get a lot of racist wars here in the Rasta community also (...) me, that’s why I went to live in marcus Garvey to break that barrier... (King Yellow 2013)

> ... In this crowd, my eye is caught by a group of young, barefoot, bearded men, who are wearing what appears to be sack cloth. I am told by my friend that they are ‘Sakman’, members of a local Khoisan Rastafarian sect, who surrender their life completely to devotion and supposedly live in isolation somewhere outside of the city.

Or from https://kujenga-amani.ssrc.org/2017/08/29/khoisan-rastafaria... :

> By fusing indigenousness within a universally established religious identity, the Khoisan Rastafarian movement encourages members of the Colored community to discover their roots and to perceive themselves as a part of a global community of Black people who have all experienced oppression through colonialism and/or slavery. As a result, Rastafari promotes peace in South Africa and a larger movement towards recognizing the indigenous KhoiSan people.

Person who wrote that paper about Koisan rastafari interviewed me and few other locals for his doctoral dissertation ;)

So what would a Koisan Rastafari say when posed your question?

Suchh divisions are superficial to most Rastaman. As per Peter Tosh:

https://genius.com/Peter-tosh-african-lyrics

The different houses has different views. Bobo Ashanti are bigots and racists. Others are internationalist with a strong focus on the on the universal bond between all people. Its an extremely diverse group with very flat leadership. There are even rastas that claim to be atheist and rasta at the same time.

I lived with a Rastafarian in South Africa for a while (I was a white European 19yo). He thought me a lot about atheism and Greek philosophy. He showed me that men should live a good life, be kind, not for heavenly spite or reward, but because "being good is something you yourself want" (as told by the Greek cynics). He had an unofficial dog-shelter, because, while being atheist, he did believe in reincarnation (a common Rastafarian theme), and that you should be good to animals because they may very well be your grandmother. He therefore also was the only (other) vegetarian, that I knew of, in a capital city of a former South African Thuisland.

No True Scotsman can be applied to any culture, as .. after all .. all culture is a lie that only persists in the re-telling.

Anecdotally I have 5 peaceful Rastafarians in my life for every one of your militant variety, and they are wonderful people to be around.

To add to this: I could never understand how women calling themselves feminist could at the same time identify with a deeply patriarchal culture where "Gender inequality is rife"[1].

The article omits talking about what this culture stands for in that regard somehow completely. It talks about Rastafari men only.

[1] https://academic.oup.com/book/595/chapter-abstract/135316411

A sympathetic interpretation would be that they identify with the conscious parts of the culture, and not the parts laid out by Aramaic reading old testament lovers. You know just like in rest of Christianity where you can find both feminist and chauvinist worshippers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDNVHYCzH3M

Do you have contact info that I can use to make sure I’ve met a true Rastafarian?

Since you are confident enough to guarantee my experience with any adherent to this religion, can you expand on the depth and breadth of your experiences with the many individuals that are part of it?

I wish the Religion Experts would share their knowledge here :(.

I guess it’s just a religion with thousands of adherents across a very large diaspora, maybe vague implications that they’re all… less than peaceful(?) is so obviously true that a downvote is more conducive to curious conversation than adding any additional words.

I live part time in the Caribbean and don't relate to what you are saying at all.

The rastas that I spend time with are among the most friendly people I've ever met.

Likewise, I am yet to meet a true Rasta who I didn't get along with, famously.

Posting again because I didn't catch this the first time.

"They are seen as unwelcome influence in much of the Caribbean."

This is absolutely not an okay argument against a religious community. It is very reminiscent of what antisemitics use as an argument for their hate.

Isn't antisemitism more of an ethnic prejudice than a religious prejudice? I don't think people are antisemitic because they disagree with some tenet of Judaism.

Generally, saying a religion, or any belief really, isn't culturally acceptable is perfectly fine in my mind. That would apply equally to Scientology, Rastafarianism, Judaism, Christianity, etc.

Antisemitism is intimately related to the question of who is Jewish, and there is no consensus on this question within the various communities involved. Some forms of antisemitism are explicitly racial but a lot of criticism falls along ethical lines.

Saying that a group is "seen as unwelcome influence" as an argument against said group is not a disagreement of some tenet of the groups faith.

Sure, but it's not not a disagreement of some tenet either.

Is the ethnic makeup of the Caribbean such that we should not believe so? Are Rastafarians ethnically coherent enough that it could be interpreted as such a prejudice?

I've spent many hours with Ras Rody - he's not a weed dealer in a Bob Marley shirt - he runs a vegan food truck in Santa Fe. Super nice dude. The food is absolutely incredible. Probably the most I've ever "tasted the love" put into food in my life. I'm not even close to vegan but ate there 3x/week when I lived in Santa Fe. Is your point that really delicious food is an unwelcome influence in the Caribbean?

Someone you were handing money to was nice to you? Are you for real?

This is an example of the "No True Rastafarian" logical fallacy.

OP said "Spend 5 minutes in the company of a rastafarian", and I talked about my experience spending many hours in the company of one.

Maybe OP should have made a better appeal if you didn't like my anecdote.

Can you explain more? I just watched a Netflix doc on Marley (thinking they'd have more music than they did) and what I understood from that was that Rasta was really unpolitical and pushing unity/peace. At least from Marley's perspective, it sounded like various groups/gangs used him and the movement.

It's still an abrahamic religion and tends toward the same sexism and homophobia as its cousins. Look into the specific practices and beliefs of the different mansions (denominations), because they vary a lot. Some are quite morally rigid.

A lot of individual rastas are personally apolitical like any other religion. But overall the religion certainly has its own outward politics, historically closely linked to the black liberation struggle. There are active and mainstream currents of black nationalism & separatism in the religion. Which, whatever you think of their merits, are not particularly chill worldviews.

> chill worldviews

I haven't validated this thought but here goes: dive deep into any religion and I bet none of them have chill worldviews (i.e. accepting of all, etc.). In my mind the only candidate might be buddhism but I haven't dove into that hardly to see what lurks

Pretty much agreed. A calm unworried soul is not particularly interested in the questions religion is positioned to answer. A contradiction pretty directly addressed by a strand of eastern christian mysticism (and others). Where many historical saints were illiterate and essentially ignorant of the fundamentals of their own religion, and this is considered good and correct: they naturally follow god's will and so have no need to learn about it any other way.

And then you get into theory vs practice I guess without a useful distinction either way. The pali canon might be chill, but devout buddhists have still done genocide. The archetypal tolstoyan pious serf might be chill but the russian orthodox church certainly never has been.

The Snoop Lion documentary did not help much.

Can you elaborate? What exactly are the behaviors that cause them to be seen as an unwelcome influence?

I'm genuinely asking because it's interesting, not to harp on you but because I'd like to know more.

Read about murder music[0]. This song literally repeats "Burn the homosexuals"[1]. The contrast with the happy and festive vibe of the song is so weird.

.0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Murder_Music

.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1VZZ_7nh4

Dancehall and reggae singers like Buju Banton and Capleton have however publicly renounced the homophobic messages in their earlier music.

Jamaica has been known as the most homophobic country in the world, where homosexuality remains illegal, despite slowly changing attitudes.

Buggery is illegal, and rarely enforced.

Homosexuals are all over the damn place since about the 2010s

This is some weak stuff. Are Americans exclusively a violent people such that hanging out with an American for a few hours, anyone would immediately realize that they are unwelcome wherever they go? Pretend I cited some wiki links to violent rap music or racist country music or something to prove my "point".

I'm not proving any point, just elaborating upon some of the controversial aspects of Rastafari culture. American culture is full of equally controversial aspects, if that's what you want to hear.

This is whataboutism - we're not talking about America here.

No it's not, it's pointing out that the evidence provided in support of the claim is bogus, cause you can apply it to any group.

Same story with the influencial Bad Brains who people forgot that the band was a serial homophobe.

There's no denying that some artists resort to these anticts but being anti-gay is cultural norm within caribbean due to heavy influence of conservative church - it is not limited to the rastafari movement only.

I wasn't really a Bad Brains fan. One summer my friend ended up in charge of some the kids and their friends. I never noticed any if that energy. We never had any deep conversations but it was a comfortable environment. I have felt more threatened around southern baptists or born agains.

I'm not sure this [0] is rastafari, but it's reggae, and I was in shock when reading the lyrics. This is the enslavement of women, very sad. And more shocking because of the supposedly happy and "funny" musical vibes.

0: https://www.jah-lyrics.com/song/prince-buster-ten-commandmen...

I spent way more then 5 minutes with Rastafari. This does not enable me to guess what your unsubstantiated claim is hinting at. What I found rather weird is that many are still riding the slavery-victim-train, which was sort of weird for a european to witness first hand. I can imagine how this combined with the slave-trader-hunter-hero thing might feel a bit anti-peaceful, but I also understand the reasons for that attitude, histoically speaking.

You could say the same about any other faith, including atheists.

Liberation is generally not peaceful is it

What does killing the gays have to do with liberation?

Seems strange that an article on the "message of Rastafari" and how it spread makes no mention of the concept of "I and i".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyaric

All the trustifatians I knew in college were happy to ridicule other religions without knowing some of the crazy shit they were poseuring.

This article taught me a lot about Rastafarianism. I grew up knowing the California version. I thought it was all about smoking weed, reggae, and dreds. It is actually a spiritual, old testament influenced religion. It seems that now-a-days there is an entire spectrum of types of Rastas though. Interesting article.

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