Ask HN: Are you tired of being fully remote? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Are you tired of being fully remote?

25 pointsasim74 comments

Just curious to know how many people are tired of being fully remote? Would prefer not to hear the "I love being remote, it works with my lifestyle, etc" or "I hated the commute, I don't see why we were in the office five days, more productive at home" comments because mostly it's not the response I'm looking for. I'm interested to hear from the people who are tired of being remote and have gone back to the office or are planning to quit and get a job that's back in the office at least 3 days a week?

I think being remote worked for me for a while. I have a kid, I totally get the freedom and flexibility of it, but I also miss being around and working with human beings in person. Coffee shops and co-working spaces are no substitute for this. Interacting with people in other social settings is also not a replacement for this. I miss a team dynamic and one that's in person. I miss going somewhere that's out of my house for the purpose of doing a job that's fulfilling or at the very least in the service of something.

Not knocking the choice of being fully remote. It works for people and that's great, I still take advantage of that freedom, but there is something hugely lacking because I'm not going somewhere to work with people. And I think some of that will entirely change how and where I work next e.g do not want to work in a fully remote company, do not want to work across timezones, preferably want to be in a team of less than 10 people.

Who else is with me?

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> Would prefer not to hear the "I love being remote, it works with my lifestyle, etc" or "I hated the commute, I don't see why we were in the office five days, more productive at home" comments because mostly it's not the response I'm looking for.

Meta comment: Maybe it's not the best use of "Ask HN" if you only want to hear one answer. IMO this really isn't the place to go if you just want validation.

This Ask HN feels like "What's the best programming language? Please don't say anything except Rust."

Python

Correct!

>Just curious to know how many people are tired of being fully remote? ... I'm interested to hear from the people who are tired of being remote...

Out of interest, what are you hoping to learn? Your feelings about remote working are valid regardless of whether 10 people agree with you, or 10,000. You do you!

Well yes so all of this "return to office" stuff from tech companies always seems to result in backlash from engineers and the majority of discussion on HN skews to people who are outraged or are quite happy with the comfortable remote work life now. I want to talk to people who have lived and done that but see the value of actually interacting with real human beings in a work context. I think it's only fair to hear the other side and then see how people went about doing that. Because the transition back isn't so simple.

Well, speaking of myself, I had always heard from managers that "people who work from home don't work", "it's more effective and efficient to be in the office", "you have to live the company culture" etc. But when we asked about a team-building event with colleagues from USA and India we were told "use modern technologies, it's equally effective". Something wasn't right, to say the least. Then COVID struck and the managers saw that the company didn't collapse. Au contraire, the efficiency of work teams were the same or even better. I also had to invest into modifications of my apartment to create a nice and efficient work environment, out of my pocket. So when my employer said "OK, COVID over, return to offices", I asked to remain full-time WFH. Denied. OK, found a new job. Luckily, there were other people who did the same so they now allow for full-time WFH.

These were my reasons. Since all that "be in office" was an utter load of shite and corpo toxicity (managers wanted to see you sitting at your desks or call for pointless meetings which could've been an e-mail), I am also extremely toxic about "return to office" unless it's guaranteed that the whole team is in the same office (which, in larger companies, doesn't happen).

If you, asim, want to work from the office and prefer real human contact (which, TBH, cannot be replaced by Teams, I agree with that - I spent my fair share of time away from my wife (luckily no kids at the time) and yes, a Skype call and couple of dungeon runs in World of Warcraft can't replace the experience of being at home :-D ) that's absolutely fine. I wish you find a workplace which suits you (that shouldn't be so hard these days). Do you really need a couple of weirdos on HN to assure you that you are correct? Guess what, speaking of the WFH, hybrid or "office" crowds, we all are! These are our preferences. Mine is different from yours. That's all. ;-)

Sometimes it’s nice to have your feelings validated, especially when it feels that you are in the minority.

What do you mean with "validated"? Nobody can tell you how to feel.

This kind of thinking is dangerous as it allows the management class to force all workers back into the office. Forcing workers into the office discriminates against employees with families, disabilities and non neurotypical folks who might be more effective WFH. Go to technical meetups, cultivate good conversations with your colleagues on Slack, generally make sure you have a life outside of work that give you meaningful social interactions (hobbies, sports, clubs, etc) but before you complain about remote work. Being forced to sit in a office with a bunch of people is very ineffective and prevents companies from hiring the best folks they can. Work is not meant to be a social venue, you can make friends with coworkers but you need to cultivate meaningful social relations beyond work. It is unhealthy and selfish to force other people back into the office just so you can have friends with you in the same location while you work. One thing to try if you really need social interactions while working might be to get together with other remote workers at the same coworking space once in a while. I would also suggest also looking into having random coffee syncups with your remote colleagues in order to build a meaningful rapport with them.

It's helpful to everyone to consider and realize what kind of working situation they want, what they need to work well (socially, professionally, etc.). This is a huge factor in deciding where to work - how you want to do it. For some personalities, they really enjoy the in-person team dynamic. It's not dangerous to realize that about yourself.

Yes, I think COVID times have shown us that it's not for everyone. I have colleagues who couldn't wait to get back into the office! Now that it can go either way, I would not want to force someone to work from home. So return the courtesy and don't force me to return to the office. Seems pretty simple.

Not at all tired of being fully remote. I actually took a remote job pre-pandemic (by a ~month) after being in a strict, 9-6 (hour lunch break) day because the company had a legacy in the consulting business and treated their product teams the same.

The freedom and flexibility to structure my day as I see fit without anyone raising an eyebrow is something I'll continue to look for. There's no more performative productivity and I can focus on doing my best work and maximizing my impact for the organization while working a schedule that works for my lifestyle. It's the best of both worlds for me and my organization.

The things I do miss, though, are the in-person connections. These don't have to happen every day or even every week. Quarterly offsites are enough to get benefit. It's also likely cheaper for an org to get everyone together for a week-long than have standing real estate obligations (lease or otherwise).

Additionally, optimizing for regional concentrations and allowing folks to get together more frequently would help bridge this gap.

Biggest thing is that hybrid-remote is inflexible and doesn't allow the team to self-organize. The future is to decentralize in-person versus remote work to the lowest level team and let them figure out what works best.

You invite people to answer, yet you only want answers that agree with you. Strange.

Anyway, I do disagree with you, but that's fine. Enjoying remote work or not is entirely a personal preference, and there's no single answer. Which is why it feels wrong for so many companies to have strict policies either way.

I personally enjoy remote work, and wouldn't want to go back to an office. I can be much more efficient working in a home office, have less distractions, and be happier overall. I do occasionally miss office banter, and bonding over lunch, but I definitely don't miss the drama and politics that goes along with it. Not having to commute, working in my own environment, and the additional flexibility are cherries on top.

For me, the office wasn't a social club. There are other venues much more suitable for that. I also don't think that you need to know someone personally in order to work well with them professionally. The team-building events many companies insist on having to improve "team spirit" and "work culture" are cringe beyond belief.

I worked for a tech startup, well, quite a long time ago. All of us were in the same office. In case of some HR manager reads it: by "office" I mean "office". A room with doors, windows, a couple of desks each dedicated to one person. No open-plan, cubicles, "modern", "innovative" ... no shite like that. The whole team in the same office. In case of some HR manager reads it: by "whole team" I really mean "all developers and testers". It was also in a country with "strong lunch culture" (Czechia). Not as good as in let's say India but still - we all went to a pub mid-day for a lunch. I still miss those days.

When I moved to bigger companies, teams were larger, not necessarily in the same town. And we had colleagues spread across multiple timezones. And not only across EU (we have 3 but the vast majority of countries are in the same timezone as I am). We had colleagues in USA, Canada, EU, India. No difference whether I was in the office or at home.

You probably don't want to hear that but unless the whole team is in the same office I don't want to "return to office" because there is nothing for me in it. It's not worth the wasted time and fuel for commute.

I worked in various offices for decades, but have been remote for eleven years now. I still love it and don't want to go back.

Yes there are some circumstances where being in the flesh is better, particularly in intensive early design and architecture meetings. You can achieve a creative flow that's harder when apart. But that's always been a small part of my job, and the longer march of building the thing benefits from slow, separate thinking and prolonged focus that's harder for me when together with a team. I love to have the flexibility to respond to someone in minutes or hours instead of seconds.

But for me the lifestyle thing is bigger. I love my rural life, nowhere near an office building, let alone my other team members. In particular I'm a dog person, spend all day with my mutt, and couldn't bare to leave her alone all day. I'd rather not have dog than do that to it. What an awful prospect.

You bring up a good point. I think the type of work is important here. On my current team our work is pretty dynamic and changes a lot, so I think that is one reason I feel we'd be better in person (we are fully remote).

Pre-COVID employees were treated like children who had to ask for permission to not be in the office. The freedom of WFH during COVID was intoxicating for a while, but I think both ends of the spectrum are unhealthy and hybrid is the only way forward. There is no doubt in my mind that WFH adds friction to varying degrees depending on the organization and role, but there is always friction. The degree of friction should dictate the level of hybrid.

I suspect the range will be 2 to 3 days a week in the office and very few will be more or less.

I am exhausted by the people on the outer edges of the range arguing that their preference is the one true path and that nothing else is acceptable. Just because it (WFH or WFO) works for you doesn’t mean it works for your team, your division, your company, your customers, etc. Stop being selfish and accept a compromise in the middle that strikes the right balance of freedom.

Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. You still have to live close enough to the office to get there without an insane commute, so you don't get the "live where you want" benefits of fully remote, but you also have to have enough space in your house to work, so you lose the "home is home and work is work" benefits of working in an office. Plus, unless office and WFH days are rigorously coordinated (which destroys any "flexibility"), you're still going to spend a bunch of time in the office on zoom calls with people who are WFH. It's wild to me that this is being suggested as a compromise. Hybrid just guarantees a baseline level of misery for everyone.

> You still have to live close enough to the office to get there without an insane commute, so you don't get the "live where you want" benefits of fully remote

I just absolutely marvel at this attitude, like it is such a massive put-out to have any form of inconvenience by the entity paying you. The entitlement in this industry is going to bite a lot of people in the ass.

I was just pointing out why your suggestion that hybrid work is a solution was a dumb idea because it's the worst of both worlds, but you appear committed to a willful misreading of my comment, so...have a great day!

I've been fully remote for 3 years now and I'd prefer an office if I had the choice. Something like 2-3 days/week in the office feels ideal. Granted the last time I worked in an office I also lived a few miles down the street from it, so my commute was not an issue (it was a great part of my day, in fact). So that probably pollutes my view on all of this.

My team is fully remote, and if I was to be totally honest, we would be more effective if we were all in the same space. Maybe other remote teams are just better at being remote than us, I don't really know.

There is a very real culture problem with hybrid environments, when other people are together and you are remote it's a problem. It can work, but my preference is to be full remote. I've been full remote for 13 years and I had to develop methods to satisfy interaction. When I do travel and go to the office its such a drag, I feel so drained after.

I really like having lunch at home, napping if I want, etc. It's not socially acceptable to be so relaxed in an office.

hey i'd want tips if you want to share. i'm remote since before covid. i've moved company months ago, but i don't have great ideas on how to "satisfy interaction" professionally.

It takes work - search around for events and put yourself out there

How do you know your team would be more effective in any given configuration? Do you have some metrics you can share? Above such metrics, what if working in the office meant losing a couple of folks who turned out to be highly efficient but wanted to work from home and you could only find less effective replacements? What if the opposite were true?

People are constantly arguing back and forth about whether WFH or office is more productive and the various pitfalls but actual evidence is sparse. And second order effects just throw everything out. I think we'll be talking about it for a long time and it's still company and personal preference.

Yeah, I don't know any of that. I'm just speaking from my perspective. For example I notice communication is harder. A Slack thread becomes a video call and screenshare, and I am pretty sure it would be a lot more efficient and effective to just walk over to someone's desk. I don't know if that is actually the case, just what I intuit from seeing our day to day.

Interesting. I would spend a lot of time going over to others' desks in the office but I do prefer screenshare now. It's clearer what they are trying to show and I can have the code files open in my own editor at the same time. You lose some of the adhoc but gain some clarity.

Prevjob was fully remote, one of my requirements for curjob was having a significant in-person component. I concentrate more effectively, I collaborate much more frequently, my team stays in sync better and our designs are better for it, I learn more from teammates, I know more about other teams’ work so I can contribute much more, I have meaningful relationships with the people I spend half my day with, I have better work/life separation at home, I get free food and La Croix, making friends across the company is good for my career and for my happiness.

Against that: commuting can and does suck ass. Having had jobs where I commuted 2+ hours each way some weeks (consulting lol) I know the pain is real. I’m lucky enough that my commute is manageable, and given that the choice is not even close for me.

I had already posted a similar reply but I was going to say the exact same thing. I have a comute of 45 mins each way and I dont really despise it either. During my return commute I love to stop at an old shack for coffee and then head home. Its something I look fwd to now at the end of my day.

I went fully remote last year and I miss the in person interaction and dynamics as well, so I believe I get how you feel. It definitely feels more lonely, and it's affected my choice of what projects to work on. I bias my work towards projects that don't require a lot of human interaction.

That said, its not worth trading even 1 hour of commute time per day. I can play with my kids the moment I close the door to the office. It's awesome.

I'm less engaged with my current job than any other I've had in my whole career. Part of that is flaws specific to the company, but being remote definitely magnifies it. It's much harder to feel like I'm a part of something actually real. It feels like work for the sake of work, like I'm not a part of something with people. Seeing them in person occasionally doesn't change that.

I'm not so excessively introverted or withdrawn as to dislike being around people so I don't understand the things people complain about with regards to being in an office. Since I have free will I never chose an unacceptable commute. And yeah, open office plans sucked but this contrived zoom shit is worse.

> Since I have free will I never chose an unacceptable commute

Is your view that people take unacceptable commutes because they think they have to?

When the commute is a requirement of employment, yeah, people take unacceptable commutes. They move to undesirable places and impose undesired restrictions on their (potential) family. Eating and all that. WFH and other workplace-flexibilities is a more civilized way of working. And if the BS about being difficult to get (good) people is true, improving the lot of the workers is inevitable.

It's my view that all the threads here about remote work feature lots of people with some of the highest salaries and job mobility suddenly acting like it's unethical for them to be asked to leave their house. As if our society hasn't always functioned that way until recently without this level of complaining.

I occasionally satisfy that social itch by going into the office once a month, that’s usually all I need right now.

My commute is about a 30-40min drive one way.

I've got very personal reasons for saying no, remote work has saved my life.

Commuted from grade 5 through college and into my early 30s. I have spent 1000s of hours in rush hour traffic and riding public transit. I hated every moment of it.

Things really compounded leading up to the pandemic when I was utterly miserable. I will do everything in my power to never have a commute again.

I also have some fairly severe mental illness so it's incredibly helpful to "flex" on the days where I am just not feeling myself. It can be a double edged sword in that way, but I think I've found balance.

Eh, I'd do like... 5% on site, "it's actually entirely up to me" hybrid, or if someone actually gave me a real-ass office of my own (room, window, door...). There are negatives to both remote and onsite and it's about picking your poison.

Long commutes to long days in a few square feet in a field of desks in a big room is quite unpleasant for me, but I still like being around my coworkers... getting lunch, speaking in person, etc.

Give me a 4 day work week and one week out of 4 in office, that'd be pretty ideal.

nope - 15 years remote :)

Honestly, I wouldn't mind office 1x a week or so if it was within 15 min of my house, but based on COL it really isn't worth it. Any commuting beyond that is a waste of time (not to mention the stress, environmental impact, etc involved)

Are you an extrovert or introvert? If the former, then yeah, being in a crowd is a win. If the latter, however, you have a commute and a crowd, both of which take time and effort away from work. Unless your commute is on foot and your office is old-school with those doors and walls thingies.

I assume you're in the first half of your career. In the second half, looking where you can settle, or settle kids (if you have them) becomes important. Can't kick back or enter retirement with a living-space debt. So unless you can safely move to a lower-cost area with a lot of equity, you have to factor in picking a place you can pay off.

I'm an introvert but completely isolating from the team and having professional-only meetings is draining too draining for me.

I'm (mostly?) introverted, and I find remote work very rewarding. I can do what is necessary without most distractions and without spending time in a car/bus/train. Enforced collegiality is bearable in small quantities, but my interests != their interests. I also welcomed the removal of relocation risk.

I don't think developing technically complex software is something that is driven by lots of interaction. The design might be, but its implementation requires patience and concentration. Rands and others talked about maintaining flow or state and interruptions take time to recover from.

These are two very extreme categories to box someone in. Everyone has a trait from both ends of the spectrum in different regards.

Just curious to know how many people are tired of only digital streaming? Would prefer not to hear the "I love streaming, it works with my lifestyle, no talking in theaters etc" or "I hated the crowds, I don't see why we went to the cinema every weekend, more convenient at home" comments because mostly it's not the response I'm looking for. I'm interested to hear from the people who are tired of streaming and have gone back to the cinema or are planning to quit streaming and go to the cinema at least 3 times a week?

I think streaming worked for me for a while. I have a kid, I totally get the convenience and comfort of it, but I also miss being around and experiencing movies with human beings in person. Home theaters and viewing parties are no substitute for this. Watching with people in other settings is also not a replacement for this. I miss the collective excitement and one that's in person. I miss going somewhere that's out of my house for the purpose of enjoying a film that's thrilling or at the very least entertaining.

Not knocking the choice of fully digital streaming. It works for people and that's great, I still take advantage of that convenience, but there is something hugely lacking because I'm not going somewhere to share the experience with people. And I think some of that will entirely change how and where I watch movies next e.g do not want to solely rely on streaming, do not want to watch alone, preferably want to be in a group of less than 10 people.

Who else is with me?

Interestingly, I actually prefer the theater now because theaters adapted to being more like living rooms in response to streaming!

I loved WFH... for, maybe, a month. I realized I need to separate work and home for maximum productivity and well-being.

Most people tend to disagree with me, though.

> I think being remote worked for me for a while.

I totally agree with this - after 20ish years of doing 5 days a week in an office in the city, I was majorly burnt out with that lifestyle and remote was a massive relief for the first year or two.

For me, that doesn't mean 100% remote forever is an appealing though, I think 3-4 days week with a bit more flexibility than pre-covid is probably ideal.

I've been remote for about 8 years now. I never thought I would get tired of it, but the last few years have been draining.

My previous job had some mandatory travel every few months which was great to get out and be around the team I worked with. My current job is happy to never get everyone together and I miss it.

Definitely. It was okay for a couple of years but it’s not how I want to spend the rest of my career.

No, I hate noisy office cubes where folk drop by and interrupt you preventing you doing any work. Why go into an office to go on a Zoom call? Doesn't make sense. I don't need the social aspect through work as I have a real life outside.

As you are looking for validation, I can give you some. While I work remotely, sometimes I pop in to the office. It's not so much conversation with the people as the whole ritual: biking to the city, enjoying the morning hustle, eating breakfast in my favorite cafe in the center, then doing some work away from my kids, having anything I like for lunch, and finally biking back home enjoying some new route.

But I do it only sometimes, and frankly I don't miss the previous set up at all. I would never return to the office, period. The very fact that I feel more in control of my life is so liberating I can't imagine giving it back.

It feels like playing a really weird video game all day. If it wasn’t paid I think it would be treated as some kind of strange addiction. I’ve never played e.g. World of Warcraft, but I’m not sure how remote work is different from being a really hardcore “gamer”. It doesn’t seem healthy for several reasons. I definitely move around less since I’m not forced to walk between meetings or between buildings for food or to meet up with coworkers on campus. Video calls do not currently trick my ape brain into thinking I’m actually socializing. Though I don’t miss writing code in an open office, that was always ridiculous.

You're working.

  trick my ape brain into thinking I’m actually socializing

You aren't doing that. You're working.

  move around less since I’m not forced to walk

You manage yourself at home while you work. Make that a part of your routine.

  feels like playing a really weird video game all day

You must have an amazing job.

  If it wasn’t paid I think it would be treated as some kind of strange addiction

Maybe you work too hard and don't manage your time well?

I’m part of the responses you’re not interested in but since it’s Ask HN … :)

I’ve been fully remote for 14 years and there’s nothing that would make me go back to an office.

That’s not to say my experience has been without its bad moments, but to me, the tradeoff is completely worth it.

Obvious perks: - flexible hours (this depends on the job, I’ve done remote shift-based support with no flexibility but most of this time it has been on flexible hours - No commute, especially good when you need to do off hours work. I remember being on call 20+ years ago and in an industry that wasn’t too keen on remote access (finance) and nothing beats a commute from bed to desk (nothing beats not being on call, of course)

Less obvious perks: - no need to deal with perfumes, smell from foods I don’t like, noises, other people’s music or chatter, overall, a private space that’s truly private or only shared with the family is the best for me - no need for a day of pets in the workplace because the pets are always in the workplace - I can invest as much as it makes sense to me in ergonomics for my workplace, and I take that from job to job. No more bad chairs, or someone else thinking their dream setup is everyone’s dream setup either - I can be there for my family. A coffee break can be a coffee break with my wife or one of the kids. My dad left home before 8 AM and came back after 9 PM during my elementary school years, as a counter example. - my office-hours-but-it’s-time-for-a-break perks are unbeatable. No matter how much $$ a HR dept may throw at this problem, if you try to please everyone you’d end up with the Homermobile of offices. But if it’s just you? I have several musical instruments and gear in my office. When my breaks aren’t a family or couple break, they’re a music break. And my noise doesn’t annoy any coworkers.

Cons/challenges: - it may be challenging to get off work if the desk is always reachable. I had this problem at first, took me about 3 years to learn to actually “leave the office” - when the kids are small they can be distracting. Over a lifetime though, unless you keep having kids (I don’t mean this to make fun of some people, it’s just that I’ve met people with lots of kids and in those households, for about 10 to 12 years there’s always a baby around) this is just a drop in the ocean. But when you’re in the spot where the drop falls, it can feel overwhelming. - if you’re not at a fully remote or remote first place, you will be left out of many things. That doesn’t have to be bad (I had that at one place and didn’t mind) but if you ignore this fact you’ll be in for some unpleasant surprises.

I am a bioinformatics scientist that works almost entirely remotely. I miss the impromptu discussions that happen around the lab, which can help solve a problem you or a co-worker is stuck on or they can lead to a new and interesting collaborations. I also miss most of the invited speaker series because they stopped providing a virtual option, which is very frustrating.

Edit: I don't miss the noise of young trainees treating the office space like a party room, the desks with poor ergonomics for programming work, or the annoying commute. So there are definitely advantages to counteract the loneliness.

So you only want to hear people echoing your sentiment?

I mean IMHO another advantage of remote work is that you get to see, and appreciate different viewpoints, rather than being enveloped in whatever culture your office exudes.

We're now working 1 day a week in the office, which is fine for me. There's close to zero work benefit to those days in the office, but nice to see the guys in person and go out for lunch.

No, I really don’t. I appreciate that it allows me to travel and otherwise do things that I want outside of working hours because I don’t need to worry about commuting to an office daily.

Do what’s right for you.

I really disliked WFH from the start. It just exaggerates my worst tendencies, and I also struggle to empathize with team members if I don't see them on the regular

I am in the same boat as you are. Even though I have the flexibility of being remote, I still commute at least four days a week. It will sound really weird but I like the process/routine and even the commute part.

Meeting people in the office even from differen teams really helps me somehow and when I am in my cubicle I can really get the work done as opposed to working from home.

I think I need that physical divide betwwen my personal and professional life to function properly.

Nope - 8 years and counting

I was called back in to the office to work 3 days a week there which is good for me. Working 100% remote is not as much fun, way too lonely, isolating, and I was missing opportunities at work. By the time they announced I was eager to go back to the office. The commute helps me separate the two. Wfh caused everything to blend together.

It's a bit more than a simple yes or no. There was a longish study about the topic: https://leadership.garden/back-to-the-office/

Quite the opposite, being fully remote has made my life better than I thought was possible 3 years ago. I discovered what I thought was just life was motion sickness and not having it every day has drastically improved my life.

So you want a discussion with only people agreeing with your standpoint?

nope, never

I have to admit, we had everyone in the office one day last week and... it was nice. Felt sociable. I really didn't get much done though.

A total of 42,915 people died in motor vehicle crashes in 2021.

How many would be alive today if they had been fully remote?

No, not tired at all. I prefer remote work over in the office. Most of my colleagues as well.

So you're looking to confirm your bias? Nah. Never mind.

Hell no. This hybrid stuff sux. I want to be 100% remote

I am tired of commuting to be honest. It robs your time.

Exactly, working with humans in person. Miss it so much.

Absolutely not.

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