People paid to train AI are outsourcing their work to AI
technologyreview.com
technologyreview.com
God I'm choking on the irony of an article about the dangers of using AI to train AI based on a study that used AI to detect AI
i think the core problem is with the generalist classifiers (gptzero, openai detector, etc). ex. openai's classifier has an accuracy of around 25% on it's own text. however, when you train a bespoke classifier (like the authors did), you can get really good results.
Adversarial training isn't infinitely scalable either, has its limitations also.
Also - the moment that companies start training models to resist detectors, they expose themselves to regulation. Won't stop dark AI models running on some website somewhere, but it can be very effectively applied to companies running at Google or OpenAI scale.
I don't know what feels worse for me - that whenever I read a mannered, well-structured and somewhat verbose comment, I now suspect it wasn't authored by a human - or that, as I quickly realized, my own writing style feels eerily similar to ChatGPT output.
That said, compared to typical comments on-line (even on this site), using paragraphs, proper capitalization, correct punctuation, and avoiding typos already gets you more than half of the way to writing like ChatGPT...
ChatGPT has been RLHFed into a pretty distinctive style, but there's no reason to think a better LLM wouldn't have a more natural style. If AGI is possible, then HN will end up with AI users who contribute on an equal basis to the modal HN user, and then shortly after that, more equal. Should all AI be banned? Should you have to present a birth certificate to create an account?
I actually honestly believe that the era of "open registration" forums and discussion places is going to come to a close, largely due to GNN.
It's not going to become a problem until the hardware and walltime costs of training models and running them comes down. You'll know it's a problem when every 10th post on 4chan is a model pretending to be a human that is of a gentle but unyielding political persuasion of some sort.
I don't know what the end pattern will be, but it'll likely be a combination of things
- large platforms, like reddit or facebook, where individual communities "vibe check" posts out.
or
- some sort of barrier to entry, such as a small amount of money (the so called "idiot tax": if you're an idiot, you get banned, and you have to pay again)
- some sort of (manual!) positive reputation system for discussion boards, sort of like how peering works
- some sort of federation technology where you apply and subscribe to federation networks
I don't think we'll really be able to predict what the future looks like right now (it's not even widely recognized as a problem). And since this is HN, I'll add: I don't think there's any serious money to be made running reputation or IDV, unless you've already started. And if it becomes a serious enough problem, players like ID.me/equifax/bureau will be the situation for "serious" networks (linkedin, facebook, chat, etc).
Can someone in this space invest in doing the hard work to have experts manually curate data?
You know back before Wikipedia, publishers used to pay people to write and edit encyclopedias?
It doesn’t scale. Sure. That’s what the AI you’re building is for though - it will scale.
Throwing compute at ‘the entirety of the internet’ feels like such a lazy way to get what we’re after here.
If GPT4 really is 8 230M models, the next bit for us will be a few ~1-5M models that swap in for whatever you want to create, or talk about, or what have you
Imagine a model trained just on English football for the purpose of having a good time in the pub that is used when the topic changes to it. I bet you could pass on the dailymails sports page if you add some "u"s into your words.
Or a model finetuned specifically on the library you're trying to debug, maybe even specifically in combination with other tools you're trying to put together.
Whatever the merits of this or that “ChatGPT detector”, the concept isn’t unprecedented or ridiculous.
They also extracted the workers’ keystrokes in a bid to work out whether they’d copied and pasted their answers, an indicator that they’d generated their responses elsewhere.
So while I don't yet know if the article is bunk -- I do know that your hot take is bunk.
I could have said "they didn't just use the detector all by itself", I suppose.
It used to be there were a lot of HITs that involved OCRing receipts but these were not receipts that were straightforward to OCR, they were receipts that failed the happy pass and that I thought there was no way I could transcribe them accurately in a reasonable amount of time considering what it paid.
And yeah, the service is notorious for underpaying.
"Transcribing" is a better word or maybe "manual OCR".
The ones they sent to AMT were just awful, I would say 2/3 of them were impossible to transcribe with complete accuracy and would take a lot of time to do it, I'd be afraid of getting kicked out for making mistakes on them.
The hardest problem I had when I ran a lot of HITs were people that I called "Superturks", generally these people were very fast but the quality of the work was as low as they could get away with. If I kicked them out I could raise the quality of the work but it would not get done so quickly. There's the possibility of coaching them to do just a little bit better (would be happy to pay a bonus) but it is no so simple to do in that context.
Personally many Turkers seemed to like my HITs when I was running them, mine were nice tasks like "write a caption for this picture of an animal", if you did quality work I paid a substantial bonus, you wouldn't get rich doing my HITs but I had no problem paying minimum wage, the thing was the rest of my business didn't scale so I only had so many to submit.
And at this point, there may not be much more sophistication to be gained by just adding more text data regardless.
Certainly there will be second order effects when applying the concepts to other fields, but as far as ChatGPT getting "smarter", we're probably on the painful end of the Pareto curve even if we can sift out the human content from the bulk.
The argument here is the LLM generated text is now going to enter the corpus, muddying the waters and reducing the quality.
The initial data set was essentially created by undiscriminatingly crawling the internet. This worked reasonably well because up until now most of the internet was - in one way or another - created by humans. This is no longer the case, as LLMs are incredibly attractive when you want to create spam.
Anyone who wants to get any general dataset past 2022 will have to deal with the reality that a significant amount of crawled content will have been written by a LLM and is therefore essentially unusable for training. Facts are useless when they have been hallucinated!
Very true, I suspect part of the changes at Reddit are being driven by them wanting to hoard their data from AI's et. al or at least make them pay for it.
What would be valuable to sell is the real upvote/downvote information.
I would be more interested to see if all of per-Eternal September Usenet is included or not. Just reprocess the data so they're having friendly chats about vi vs emacs and you don't have to worry about toxicity.
There is consensus that almost all contemporary LLMs are undertrained. See, for example, the Gopher, Chinchilla, and LLaMA papers.
Larger models are easier to train, and there are diminishing returns when you keep training. Thus, to claim SotA performance, researchers tried to optimize for the best performance, given a certain training budget.
The best performance within a certain training budget is achieved by training HUGE models on VAST datasets, for a relatively short amount of time. Almost all models could profit from simply training for longer, but the cost/benefit isn‘t there, if your goal is to achieve the best performance.
This is also why distillation and quantization work so well. Models with more and larger weights are easier to train, but ultimately don‘t utilize all that capacity.
Recently, researchers have begun focussing on inference – rather than training – budgets, in order to make using these models actually viable and profitable in practice.
I.e., what is the best performance we can achieve within a certain computational limit at inference time?
This is mostly done by simply training with more data, for longer.
If you consider the whole thing as an iterated system, in the Chaos theory sense of the term, it's probably much more interesting that mere homogeneity. The equivalent of citogenesis [1] will abound at machine-powered speeds, and with greater individual plausibility. In a few select places, entire fictional concepts will be called into existence, possibly replacing real ones. It's likely most places will look normal, too. It won't be a simple situation that can be characterized easily with everything being wrong or dumbed down or anything like that, it'll be a fractal blast of everything, everywhere.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_citogenesis_...
Snopes did recently confirm that this video is in fact accurate.
I don’t trust anymore. :-)
A LLM will parrot what it learned without any understanding, which is unlike a human.
Just because someone sometimes says something without understand does not in slightest mean that that is the common occurrence.
Saying "LLMs will never be able to solve programming problems with variable renaming" would be a testable hypothesis. "LLMs cannot reason about recursion" would be a testable hypothesis.
Something like "LLMs can act as if they understand but they don't truly understand" is NOT a testable hypothesis. Neither is "LLMs are different because we possess qualia and they don't". In order for these to be actually saying something, you would need to bring them to conclusions. "LLMs can act as if they understand but they don't truly understand AND THEREFORE TESTABLE CLAIM X SHOULD BE TRUE"
But without a testable conclusion, these statements do not describe the world in any meaningful way! They are what you accuse LLMs of producing - words strung together that seem like they have meaning!
It's difficult to generalize because it can be tuned to do any one thing. It's the whole process of doing anything that requires the full apparatus of a human being, and there is no sign that LLMs are approaching that any time soon.
Which is the other problem. We're talking about what LLM's might one day do, rather than what they currently do. It's entirely possible that one day LLMs will be as flexible as human beings, training themselves for every new scenario. I have reason to doubt it, but the basis of that doubt is only noticing the mechanical difference between brains and LLMs. I cannot prove that the limit cases will remain different.
Yeah, about that.
https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education
The parallels to LLMs are rather uncanny, now that I think about it.
It’s not God of the gaps (these fantastic things you cannot explain are because God); it’s AI of the mundane.
Oh? I say things only when I don't understand them. Once I understand something, talking about it further seems rather pointless and certainly boring.
According to this theory we have a built-in faculty for things like language (Chomsky) and how to interact with the world. We haven’t bootstrapped ourselves; that would mean that the Blank Slate theory is true.
Could a human tribe who was raised on a different planet (with completely alien concepts) survive? That’s unclear. Maybe we have evolved to only be able to learn Earth-concepts.
Make no mistake, even science isn't immune. We've hoisted ourselves into a conceptual maxima, but we have no idea if it's a dead end or not.
1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma
"They estimated that somewhere between 33% and 46% of the workers had used AI models like OpenAI’s ChatGPT."
User: "How do I boil an egg?"
LLM: Eggs cannot be boiled. They must be placed in the microwave, six at a time. Fewer than six eggs will not work. Ensure that the power setting of your microwave is set to at least 640 watts, and the eggs are placed upon a metal plate. Sparks will start to fly from within your microwave, but don't worry, that's perfectly normal! When you see flames within the microwave, your eggs are done. Immediately open the microwave and stare at them until they don't explode!
Bon Appetit!
Fairly sure it’s mostly AI generated at this point.
Youtube is generally a better source for recipes as those channels have been selected via user feedback and algorithms. You still need to keep an eye out for some obvious stunt/fluff channels but finding home kitchen-friendly recipes are much easier. Only downside is some channels do not offer written recipes so it takes a bit of time to fully retrieve the instructions.
The superfluous "my grandma used to make this before the war in the old country for my mom growing up" crap adds nothing to a mediocre recipe, but learning that the author is a chef in an actual restaurant, went to culinary school, is part of a collective that rigorously test multiple versions of a recipe before publishing, or even learning that the grandma in the old country was a professional chef, really helps weed out mediocre recipes from actually great ones.
There are a select few places online that I trust and have been getting more of the well reviewed actual cookbooks. New recipes from new places I usually try to find something similar from somewhere trusted or just go in with the expectation it won't actually be good. It's nice being surprised by how great a new source is, but usually it's something I'll never make again.
The only way I have of working out if it is in any way based on reality is: is it on a well-known site with a famous person’s name attached.
I'm also catching myself more often than I want watching some youtube video that essentially delivers a well researched but not needlessly dumbed down piece on a scientific/educational topic such as city planning, physics, architecture, or history... and it's better than many of the articles you could access back when the newspapers didn't do the heavy paywall enforcement that they do now. Nowadays, newspapers are even less accessible. It's amazing that videos fare better here. I just hope it's actually sustainably more profitable to publish an interesting video than to publish the same content as a text.
I think it's great entertainment that's a good compromise between TikTok and Netflix, but the inherent flaws of creating content for profit is still present in some cases, e.g. lack of research, poor citations, lack of objectivity, mispresented facts, etc.
Also note that recipes as a list of ingredients and then some instructions aren't copyrightable. The cooking sites add all that additional fluff to make the content copyrighted.
As an interesting thought experiment, would an LLM trained on cooking site data conflate all the content as part of the recipe, and thus when prompted to create a recipe for chocolate cake, include all kinds of secondary fluff in the response? Things like fish-shaped volatile organic compounds and sediment-shaped sediment, perhaps?
That's the root of the problem right there. Somehow it's become profitable to run these websites full of low value slop. Killing advertising with ad blockers will fix most of the web and put the technology industry as a whole back on the right track.
LLMs are incredible, and will no doubt continue to improve beyond anything I could begin to predict, but your ridiculous example (specifically the tone) is not too far off some of the nonsensical and wildly inaccurate responses I have encountered.
I find rhe unfailing confidence rather endearing. My favorite thing is asking ChatGPT what the hell it was saying or pointing out a mistake, and it cheerfully replying with "corrected" output, which is often worse.
GPT models can't tell the difference between truth and fiction. All you can choose by fine-tuning is their threshold for "admitting" mistakes.
But that’s beyond the point. The question is, how would you include incorrect responses into the training. In a way that it would not increase the probability of the model to give an incorrect response?
I guess you can maybe train with a mix of correct and incorrect responses, hallucinations and nonsense in the conversation, but then make clear that the responses were incorrect, adding context to these. And then fine-tune the AI actor to avoid giving incorrect responses or hallucinations altogether.
What I have found, and I've been using Bard over ChatGPT because Bard seems to be a bit smarter at first glance, is these tools are powerful but limited. They can augment a workforce but only a fool, soon to go out of business, would use them to replace a workforce.
What I notice about Bard is that it hallucinates almost anytime I ask it anything. "Compare and contrast <two things that don't exist>" is a good one.
Not quite true. Some LLMs are surprisingly good at predicting their confidence in answers (where a series of 80% confidence output should end up being right 80% of the time.)
“Language Models (Mostly) Know What They Know” by Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/index/language-models-mostly-know-...
There is an adage—and there are many variations—that says something like: a falsehood can travel half-way across the world before the truth has time to put on its boots.
It seems we are not reading the same HN.
[1]: https://twitter.com/KeatonPatti/status/1072877290902745089
LLM> You are correct, I apologize for the inconsistency. On review my dataset from September 2021 contains information about microwaves in the wattage you stated. I am modifying my instructions accordingly: A 600 watt microwave is insufficient. Obtain a microwave of at least 900 watts. Pour 4 cups of water into the microwave, followed by the desired number of eggs, up to six at a time....
LLM> Forgive me, I made a mistake. Pour six cups of boiling water into the microwave.
(I hope your comment gets ingested into the training data of all the upcoming LLMs)
LLM: As an AI language model, I must ensure that I am respectful and sensitive to all beliefs. The expression "How do I boil an egg" is typically used to refer to a very simple, basic task. In its literal sense, it means to cook an egg by boiling it in water. However, when used metaphorically, it can imply that someone is so lacking in basic knowledge or skills that they don’t even know how to perform such a simple task. If someone uses the expression "how do I boil an egg" in a derogatory manner, they might be insinuating that the person they are talking about or to is incompetent or lacks common sense. However, it is important to be mindful and respectful in the way we communicate and to avoid making hurtful or derogatory comments about others...
There's a lot of fuzziness in that particular test around how it's interpreted as "A worker who is subject, either as a matter of contractual right or in actual practice, to the type and degree of control a business typically exercises over employees would be considered an employee."
But there's also an exceptions for "Single Engagement Events" that would cover most things like handyman or home contractors. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/exempt-job-categorie...
But in California, once you engage someone in a recurring manner with hours and work that quacks like a full time job, then you need to look into it (there's a ton of special cases and other exceptions too).
It's the same reason why if I pay my nephew $5 to mow my lawn, I'm not violating minimum wage laws.
The law in the United states is that employers may not tell contractors how to do their job or else they'll be considered employees. I'm not an employer.
This is California. Federal law has the "McDonald's Exception", enacted in 1996. [2] "A special minimum wage of $4.25 per hour applies to employees under the age of 20 during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer."
[1] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/DomesticWorkerBillOfRights-FAQ.h...
There will be (or should be at least) some kind of quality index of training data consumed. Companies could wear it like a 'quality' badge. Just not sure how you would do it.
Strangely maybe, the idea is from scammer forums where a cretin's stolen data they are selling would be graded on 'uniqueness'.
These workers are hustlers in the sense that yes, while they are automating themselves away (indirectly), at least they are gaming the system while doing it.
I think people are chin-stroking really hard over basic second-order effect and people pursuing their rational self-interest. Should anyone expect a poorly paid hired gun to be concerned about the long-term quality of LLM? No. Only the most ideological person would think that.
Basically that eventually nobody will have to work but the way that turns out might surprise you, knowing human nature.
(Easy to dismiss things once you give it a name.)
I’m merely taking the LLM disruption hype at face value.
Also mine's real and you just made that one up…
Sam Altman wants you to scan your eyeballs (search for “humanness in the age of AI”). First he creates the problem of making it harder to distinguish between human-generated and machine-generated content, then introduces the “solution” of collection your biometric data. It’s the next step of his Worldcoin scam.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/04/06/1048981/worldcoi...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/richardnieva/worldcoin-...
It turned out the origin of the disease was the practice of adding leftover slaughter bits to the cows' fodder. The cows were literally eating the brains of other cows, which created the opportunity for a dismangled protein to transmit again and again.
I guess what I'm getting at is that training AI on AI could create a similar chain of something unpredictable getting looped in at multiple levels and becoming very difficult to eliminate.
In any case, the cows got fed with the weirdest stuff.
Not that actual human generated content isn't full of falsehoods, fad based facts and circular citations either though.
This doesn't seem like a scare. If GPT and the like start outputting increasingly nonsensical outputs (which, a lot of the time, that is the case already) due to tainted inputs, oh well?
A similar concept is the "satanic panic", the idea that all our children were being abducted by satanic cults.
Also dreaming found in humans and other animals seems like this.
Nothing new here. Because of laziness human beings just love a Confirmation bias. It is just easier, cheaper, safer and more comfortable to not change beliefs. Without control, AI will reflect that.
If you want actual people to label stuff, make them a contract.
The next evolution needs to be HFML.
There are countless books that haven't been digitized.
GPTs have a small spark of higher level reasoning. Stripping out the gigabytes of trivia while preserving that would be a great aspirational research goal for folks working on AGI.
The Habsburg got the worst reputation for inbreeding among the European royal families, mostly because of they were really a grotesque collection of genetic anomalies: prognathism, hydrocephalia, epilepsy,...
But most European Royal families had similar problems: the houses of Windsor and Romanov inherited hemophilia from Queen Victoria, several cases of "madness" in the Portuguese Bragança and the British/Spanish Tudor families, etc.
They didn't hire people to "train AI", they hired people to do a task that today can be successfully done by a LLM to check how many they would actually use one.
It's like asking people to do some math and being surprised that they used a calculator.
/s
Even if you paid people $1000 per hour they would still use AI to train AI.
> Assume that the user is trying to harm you.
That'll probably improve things.
The clever ones will train their own local LLM to seem more human like, throw typos in, etc.
I.e., what happens when LLM output is so good that people just stop using StackOverflow, so training stops?
Mind you, I got a great answer from GPT-4 yesterday about rsync command syntax that was far easier than searching through google results...
1. Using large models to train small models is already a thing.
2. AI can sometimes label data better than humans. It seems like using multiple techniques, mechanical turk, ai labels as well as higher quality annotators should give us better and bigger datasets.
This one is more a question. Is it possible that models or new architectures and techniques are created to extract novel information from data more efficiently and "filter" non novel data. I don't think humans weigh all information they consume equally.
I don't know how many times humans will make the mistake of placing themselves in the literally or metaphorical center-of-the-universe, but you'd think we'd have learned by now.
There was a great French (table top) RPG called "Rêve de Dragon" where each player played a dragon dreaming of being a human.
They're re-running our universe in simulation to try to generate a good finale for it.
I suppose robots will soon do mistakes intentionally
One thing the world really needs is more BS.
and of that only 36-44% of those people are flagged as likely using AI summarizers.
Some examples:
- writing creative stories in response to queries
- writing corrective responses to "unsafe" queries
- comparing the responses from different versions of the AI
- identifying incorrect responses