Comment by jacurtis | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jacurtis | Hacker News Reader

Ok, I know this is off-topic to the core idea of this essay, but one line made me think:

> the cost of a respectable degree is *spiraling upwards*, while the value of that degree is spiraling downwards.

The phrase "spiraling downwards" is common for something falling out of control, and is the correct usage here in terms of a degree's value. But can something also "spiral upwards"?

Maybe it can, maybe it can't. I've never heard someone use the "spiraling upwards" analogy. The phrase originates from planes that lose their ability to maneuver and control themselves so they fall out of the sky in a spiral corkscrew fashion while trying to re-gain control, which fits with the general usage of the phrase. But spiraling upward is just funny to me, within the same anology it isn't probably possible or realistic. "Shooting upwards" is better probably.

I really don't mean this as a critique to the author, i find the article very interesting. However, the writer inside of me just couldn't ignore the opportunity to discuss this usage.

Now, shifting gears to the author's original point so I am actually adding value here. I agree that tech really degrades against academia right now. To the point of even praising or glorifying those who drop out of school. But there really is some incredible research happening in academia right now within tech. I wish more attention was spent on favoring this work and those who participate in it instead of focusing on silly algorithm puzzles and memorizing programming language syntax oddities. This stuff really isn't useful while being able to produce thoughtful technical reports and being able to effectively spread and share good ideas (which academia emphasizes) are positive traits that actually benefit any company and make your workplace better.

Upward spiral is a bigram that shows up around turn of 20th century[0] but is undeniably rare compared to downward spiral[1]. Spiraling and spinning out of control don’t really seem to show up until the 20th century either, I’m guessing because of flight and rocketry, but that’s just wild speculation.

[0] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Upward+spiral&...

[1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Upward+spiral%...

> The phrase "spiraling downwards" is common for something falling out of control, and is the correct usage here in terms of a degree's value. But can something also "spiral upwards"?

Absolutely, especially in economics. The cost of American college degrees is a great example, or the cost of American real estate. Both are rising and quite literally out of control.

Are they moving upwards and to the right in a 2D plane, with time as the X axis? Or are they moving in a spiral?

Something that’s falling rapidly is being likened to an aircraft that’s spiralling towards the ground. Is there a physical analogy of something that spirals upward?

A large helium balloon with an open lip perhaps?

I always thought of them as tornados, personally. Kinda fits the out of control destruction angle.

See: figure of speech

> I've never heard someone use the "spiraling upwards" analogy.

I believe this is the point. The author did not use the phrase in isolation, he used it alongside the normal usage. It's like the archaic use of "without" in "attacks came from both within and without". Or describing a difference in ambition as "Alice wanted to run a marathon, but Bob wanted to run to the Moon".

ChatGPT identified it as a form of semantic inversion, which I think is basically right:

> An interesting aspect of this antithesis is the unconventional use of the phrase "spiraling upwards". While "spiraling downwards" is a common phrase used to signify a situation getting out of control or deteriorating, "spiraling upwards" is less common and might seem contradictory because spiraling is usually associated with descent, not ascent. However, this incongruity serves to enhance the impact of the contrast. This can be seen as a form of semantic inversion – using language in a way that is structurally parallel but semantically opposite or unexpected, to underscore a point.

More common forms of semantic inversion are oxymorons, irony, and paradoxical phrases.

The only thing that matters here is: did you understand what the phrase was intended to mean? I think it's pretty clear from your comment that you did. And thus it was a successful turn of phrase.

Agree with your other point though :)

> But can something also "spiral upwards"?

Birds on updrafts do this.

Also rockets with a thrust vector control loop stuck. Which probably is the better analogy, because usually that state doesn't last long before the rocket gets ripped apart by centrifugal/aerodynamic forces...

I think that people more commonly use "ratchet" for the always-up-never-down effect. But that captures only constant direction of motion, not speed.

Think about smoke in the air, or bubbles in water.

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