Ohio Prison System Bans Java Computer Manual, but Allows Hitler’s Mein Kampf | Hacker News Reader

Ohio Prison System Bans Java Computer Manual, but Allows Hitler’s Mein Kampf

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164 pointsdavideads_tmp64 comments

Having done jail time, in the UK but I guess it's the same for US, I can say that prisons are staffed by people who feel their careers are hostage to their mistakes appearing as newspaper headlines; and also having an uninformed take on technology driven by tabloid headlines. I remember in 2018 being denied access to Bitcoin books that were sent in to me because "it is used in crime" (This was at a time when it wasn't clear that Bitcoin/Crypto actually was just largely a scummy grift and when their was a belief in genuine potential.) They only reacted to Daily Mail headlines. They also banned Spanish language lessons in the belief learning it would enable Cocaine dealing, presumably arranging shipments from South America: the larger potential was lost on them. I'm assuming that here the Ohio prison system is worried about facilitating "hacking" with the same dopey myopic policy analysis endemic in all penal systems.

> in the UK but I guess it's the same for US

Why would you even think this? There is very little comparable between the US and UK prison system, like from even basic goals.

Perhaps you've done time in both countries but I haven't. I'm merely guessing at the personal motivations of staff as they perform their roles, and making an assumption these might be approximately similar. The policy goals and strategies of the systems may differ, but only by degree its seems - unlike the Scandanavians, but its individuals who execute them and interpret the rules to achieve those ends. Fearful stupid or prejudiced screws only, well often - let's be fair, consider their own interests whatever the policy goals are.

> like from even basic goals

I just want to make sure you didn't mean, "or from even basic gaols"

Not surprised. Authorities have forever seen computer knowledge as suspect. Be on school and show some computer proficiency and show yourself becoming a scapegoat everytime their fragile inadequate network is down. Get your computer searched for some bullshit reason by police and see how they think using BSD or VirtualPC makes you a criminal.

Back in 90s if you could build a PC everyone just assumed you could hack their accounts. I mean granted security was almost non existent. But I learned to not talk about programming with anyone older than myself.

Is this something US specific?

I lived those years (in Europe) as a teenager and I definitely remind people, including elders, teachers, etc, encouraging me to learn programming and computers. At worst there were a ton of them considering the career a dead end (big mistake), but nobody ever considered that dangerous. But I might have just got lucky with whom I met.

>At worst there were a ton of them considering the career a dead end (big mistake),

At least in Germany that was a rational assumption for a large part of the 90s where for a few years they tried offshoring all IT related jobs, only to onshore them again later when it didn't work.

Which jobs did they offshore and then onshore?

From my PoV, the offshoring never stopped, seeing how many German companies moved SW dev to Eastern Europe. Most automotive SW seems to be developed in Eastern Europe nowadays and I haven't seen any large German company that doesn't have off-shore IT/SW offices in a low CoL country where most of the grunt work is being done, with only the bosses/management being in the German HQ.

Only recently it seems to have slowed down, as the wages there approached the ones in Germany thanks to US companies entering the market with even batter wages, so there's no cost savings to be made anymore for them hiring here.

Also, DW was reporting of German companies moving IT/SW dev to Africa now that Eastern Europe was all fished out of cheap labor.[1] So the offshoring never stopped it seems, and knowing how stingy German companies are with paying ICs and increasing their salaries, it doesn't surprise me. They'll do anything not to increase wages.

[1] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-taps-into-africas-it-sector-to...

I've been developing software in Germany for years now, and while offshoring never completely stopped, the trust in offshoring dropped a lot.

And only very basic tasks are sent abroad, since cultural differences have made it impossible to trust any output.

Eastern Europe has the advantage of a more closely related culture than India which was the prime offshoring target in the 90s, but as you say the salary differential isn't as large, meaning a lot of companies will think twice about the overhead.

>cultural differences have made it impossible to trust any output

That cuts both ways, with German culture (in IT/tech) being off-putting to many foreign talent as well, who tend to prefer anglophone countries or anglophone companies operating in Germany, and strictly avoid traditional German companies, for good reasons.

My grandparents yelled at me because computers won’t put food on the table.

My dad was pissed at me for wasting time programming a computer as a kid.

He was even more pissed, but also proud, when I start earning more than him my first year working.

I’d imagine it may have been - if not specific to the US, it certainly wasn’t the case in the UK. Unlike the government of today who see investment technology skills as a way to produce meaningless sound bites and perhaps fill up some office space on a roundabout somewhere, the government of the 80s insisted the BBC embark on a computer literacy programme which had wide ranging consequences - the lack of follow up throughout the years is perhaps why I hear British accents wherever I go across the Bay Area though!

>Back in 90s if you could build a PC everyone just assumed you could hack their accounts.

Where? Maybe in rich western countries (US?). Growing up in Eastern Europe in the '90's, everyone from 9 years old to mid thirties was more or less proficient with building PCs and operating them since we couldn't afford buying locked down gaming consoles, DVD players and legitimate digital content of the time, so PCs were the only platform to support all forms of digital entertainment (pirated of course), alongside doing productivity work, but it was never associated with being a "hacker" who could cause harm, since it was such common knowledge and everyone was doing it.

When I bought my Dell pc in the 90s, I had to sign a disclaimer saying that I was not going to use it in the creation of nuclear weapons.

Seriously? I remember some freeware (a Scheme?) from the 1980s or 1990s that said that it was not provided for use in nuclear something--maybe just power, maybe weapons. It was not clear from the notice whether this was a political statement or a lawyerly defense against possible liability--at least I didn't inspect the statement closely enough to tell.

That clause (which was a more general restriction on use in safety-critical systems) was definitely part of the Java EULA pre-OpenJDK, but I'd imagine that it was more widespread. As I understand it, it was very much a liability issue for Sun (not to mention the PR nightmare of being in any way a cause of a nuclear accident). If you wanted you could pay them a great deal of money to accept that liability, but they wouldn't do it for free.

That sort of clause still persists in EULAs. It's in iTunes'. Or it was just a few years ago at any rate and I assume still is.

I learned not to talk about IT stuff so that people stop asking me to fix their computer.

Do people ask surgeons to operate them for free on the kitchen table when they have a medical issue?

No. But I do ask my friend, who is a doctor, about human health and medical issues here and there.

Honestly banning Java books is doing any future programmers a service. j/k

But they ban books on all kinds of things, like Buddhism, which I've seen attributed to a fear that prisoners will teleport themselves out of prison or something.

I knew two CO's, both pitiable folk who couldn't pass the police test, so as unsurprising as it should be, prison book policies never cease to surprise me in their unrelenting stupidity.

I always picture that warden from that movie who said something like "the only book you need is the Bible, son"

I'm sorry, are there really COs that think prisoners will teleport out of prison?

I too find it hard to believe that there are COs who think.

Reminds me of a line from this article "My results show that green is my dominant color (analytical, curious) and orange is my secondary (free and spontaneous). Green is a rare personality type at Winn. Miss Blanchard doesn’t offer any examples of how greens can be useful in a prison."

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pri...

Someone out there is so afraid of astral projection that they've also taken the steps of banning maps of the moon: https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1177621471314755584

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, someone in the administration will have a lot of explaining to do."

Shawshank redemption?

I feel like that's itching for a challenge on First Amendment grounds. Banning the study of a major world religion seems beyond the pail.

The only thing beyond the pail is the mop.

So, I hope they show up but a couple of folks I used to know in the tech community in Columbus would travel down to Marion State Penitentiary every month or so to teach programming to the inmates there. One guy they taught even got a job right out of prison, writing code as an intern. I’m certain he’s a senior or staff engineer now. Kenny, if you’re reading this speak up because folks need to hear your story and now is the time. Guy, and Will(?) too.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure like all these Java books was because of Will(?) trying to bring them in for this program.

They had to do some insane thing like photocopy individual pages or something to get around regulations. Apparently it is next to impossible to bring in any educational materials that can help inmates when they get out.

Need more developers? Train some inmates.

Hi there, I'm the editor of the piece. Me or someone on my team would like to chat with you if you're willing to talk about your experience and could give us some leads in finding a couple of those folks.

Drop me a line: deads AT themarshallproject.org

We have a bit of a rolodex of formerly incarcerated software engineers. One person talked with my team and said he needed prison to get sober, but he needed access to tech books to have a future afterwards.

I think about that a lot when I see all the programming books banned in different state prisons -- it's not just Ohio.

The program was called Coding in the Clink, and if I remember right they even had a guest visit from Uncle Bob at some point.

The people involved with the program were some of the best devs I've worked with in Columbus.

A quick search for "Coding in the Clink" will turn up the names of many of those involved. Look for the name Dan, he'd be the guy I most strongly associate with CITC.

Thank you for this!

Can't risk inmates developing useful skills and escaping the prison industrial complex.

Can afford them joining the "Aryan race"

In Florida that’s a bonus, many of the prison officials are open members of the KKK.

Ohio prevented incarcerated people from receiving books about programming computers like Joshua Bloch's “Effective Java” because they “pose a threat to the rehabilitation of inmates” and prison security.

Specifically they were concerned because some inmates have access to computer systems and they feel that this book is a security threat because obviously if you know anything about Java you can hack any computer anywhere.

Well, learning a programming language on its own probably won't help you probe digital security very well, but these are very motivated individuals, who have access, as you say, to the prison computer systems; who, if they're sharp enough, might find some exploit--especially if they have all the time in the world to work at it. I still think its not great, I mean prisons in general aren't great. But if I'm being honest, my motivation for giving prisoners access to reference books about software and computer architecture would be at least partially to help them break out, I think my bias here says everything.

A prisoner hacking prison computer systems is simply providing free pentesting services.

Prisons in Brisbane, Australia had a library purge about 15 years back. They wanted to remove anything that might excite a rapist or pedo. Among the volumes banned were Tom Sawyer and Oliver Twist.

What wasn't was a hardcover collection of "Romance Stories" which includes a story about a 12 year old raping his 9 year old sister, with no anatomical detail or the grooming process missing.

Censorship is always subjective, but really?

Based if and only if they provide a book on kotlon in lieu of it /s

This is fucked. What's next, they ban legal references in the library?

Also lol @ them even giving lip service to be thought America's prison system has anything to do with rehabilitation. If that was the case you wouldn't be able to discriminate against felons for housing or employment or enfranchisement.

A funny little story: I once had the unfortunate incident of being in a situation where my reading was restricted like this. My initial attempts failed when I ordered some generic coding books, nothing special. But color me surprised when, after making the titles more exotic, I managed to get a ton of goodies! No Starch’s Metasploit one was a personal fave.

There's a joke about Java and OOP somewhere in there, trying to break free!

That would be FreeBSDs and their jail concept.

I would have gone for the eight amendment.

This situation seems ripe for a class action.

They could've made an Exception.

There are no friends in prison, you see-see

Those books may have illegal arguments

The real punishment is being subjected to the stupidity of others.

So they're saving them from a fate worse than prison ... being a java developer.

I had to say it sorry (҂◡_◡)

No but, seriously

How can they discount the possibility that inmates may annex Austria and invade Poland?

Mein Kampf is pretty relevant for them so that makes sense. It’s all about being in prison for a crime you did commit as part of a nazi group and wanting to get out to rejoin them.

The final var

Why would Mein Kampf be banned? It is a historical book written by a figure of history. Adding value judgement on literary works is illogical and historically backwords.

Why would you want a book that incites racial violence in a place occupied by people who may themselves have violence issues?

Are ALL books that incite racial hatred banned? Malcolm X? Mao? Etc

You either ban them all or ban none.

Knowing American prisons, there is no way Malcolm X and Mao's books are in there.

"Don't get killed by the nazis" is not a daily concern for most people just about anywhere except in prison.

One of the biggest prison gangs are Neo-Nazi's - the AB (Aryan Brotherhood)

A good choice, really.

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