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Comment by ConfusedDog | Hacker News Reader

I believe so. I was the loneliest after I got married when my now "ex" was really demanding and paranoid. People are most lonely when get excluded from their peers from school or work or social any groups. Old people are lonely because their friends and families are keep dying off or unable to social any longer. That's the reason I recommend joining some good social or religious organizations and make friends across all walks of life and ages, keep an open mind and enjoy life. Do not engage with toxic people, only keep good companies. Don't engage with people who don't want to engage, or thinking you can help them. People need to walk out of their own rut to be truly happy.

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Amen. An addendum, if I may: when considering "toxic" please be wary of all-or-nothing cognitive fallacies. People who have one trait or belief or habit that you disagree with (even if strongly) do not necessarily come saddled with other things you might presume (ie just because they're catholic doesn't mean they're a pedo, just because they have tattoos doesn't mean they're a criminal, just because they have guns doesn't make them a white supremacist, etc.). People are complex, and you might be missing your best friend for life if you are prejudicial.

That's the problem with the weak popular vocabulary. 'Toxic' can mean just about anything.

well what matters is, what it means to you.

if a person makes you uncomfortable then it's probably better to stay away from them. only if you can't do that, then it may be worth it to reevaluate why it is they make you uncomfortable and see if you can change that.

> well what matters is, what it means to you

When giving advice on a public forum, it is very important to have similar understanding of words as others.

sure, but this is not about the definition of toxic, which is pretty clear and i don't think there is any disagreement about that. the point is that different things are toxic to different people. someone may not be bothered by guns, even when they don't care about them, and someone else may find any support of guns utterly despicable because maybe any mention of them triggers some kind of trauma they experienced. ok, so maybe it's not right to call this toxic, but that's why i used the term "uncomfortable' myself, and i don't think the specific difference is important. just possibly it could be argued that 'toxic' is to narrow. you want to avoid these people either way.

> this is not about the definition of toxic, which is pretty clear and i don't think there is any disagreement about that

Ok, then, can you explain to me what exactly it means?

Because the rest of your comment kinda boils down to "it means whatever you want it to mean" which renders it effectively meaningless.

the rest of your comment kinda boils down to "it means whatever you want it to mean"

no, it doesn't. i am not talking about the definition of "toxic". i am talking about what is toxic to you or to me. if something is toxic to me, then that doesn't mean it has to be toxic for you. i admit, my original statement was confusing. i didn't mean to say that it matters how toxic is defined, but: "what matters is, what is toxic or hurtful to you"

the definition of toxic (or my definition, if you prefer) is that toxic is anything that continuously hurts a relationship.

again, what is hurtful to me is not the same thing as what may be hurtful to you. we all have different vulnerabilities, and are bothered or hurt by different things.

The definition of toxic matters, because finding completely normal behaviors as hurtful might be indicative of a disorder in need of treatment.

Also, a friend who is not your cheerleader for every dumb thing you do and bad trait you have, is not necessarily toxic.

You could be toxic, and they could just be pointing out things you need to hear.

People here the BS gurus to "clear the toxic people from their lives" and often estrange themselves from the people who actually care most for them...

I think this cognitive fallacy is actually called "labeling". Instead of labeling yourself: "I'm dumb", think "It was dumb when I forgot to turn off my car lights and the battery died".

You are not dumb, lazy, toxic, etc, but occasionally you do or say dumb, lazy, toxic things

I think there are some things that are a bright red line though. I don't think it's prejudicial a black person to avoid people who have a "habit" of going to KKK rallies. Or an immigrant to avoid people who have "one belief" that we should forcibly deport immigrants.

I think for certain habits, beliefs, etc. people who avoid you aren't simply "unwilling to overlook this one bad thing". Maybe that one bad thing is actually just bad enough to poison you the person. [hypothetical you]

I totally agree for the other, more general case though. Not all catholics are pedos and I know plenty of catholics super frustrated with their leadership, excellent and loving people catholicism included.

> I recommend joining some good social or religious organizations and make friends across all walks of life and ages

I never considered that benefit of religious organizations, but it's very true. It's rare to find another place in society with so much diversity.

I'm no longer religious, but in the past considered joining a church just because it was absolutely the easiest way to make friends in a new area. Decided not to because it felt pretty unethical but I'm positive that is in large part why a lot of people go to church. It's a social event.

Haha, strolling up to the local church like "how do you do fellow christians, jesus saves amirite?"

Jokes aside, if you walk into your local average middle of the road protestant church, nobody is going to ask you anything besides "New around here? what do you do?" Churches are filled with people with tepid religious convictions so if you stand up and sit down and sing along when you're supposed to, nobody is going to pin you down on philosophical questions over donuts and coffee after the service.

Right. I don't argue that its easy to stroll into the average church and attend a service or even an event without any question. You may even be welcomed fairly well depending on the church.

But if ones goal is to actually build relationships, built on anything other than lies or deception, and one doesnt actually believe the religion, its going to be difficult to do that at a religious institution.

Haha. Exactly.

Consider just grabbing their flyer and showing up to the events, outside of the mass/service.

I’m sure it varies by church, but in the large city churches I attended nobody would have cared — or likely even noticed — that you didn’t also attend mass.

There's a few faiths and practices that come to mind that are imo seem to spread more positivity, Ba'hai faith and The Satanic Temple for example.

A good church will welcome a non-believer. It's an opportunity to change your mind.

I took it to be more about the ethics of supporting the religious institution. For all the good they provide they also normalise a lot of hatred and anti-social values, even when they preach the opposite.

Maybe so, but I would consider the "net good" of an institution, since most if not all institutions have at least some bad elements.

Beleive me, I was considering the net good as well when I suggested that it was a negative one.

I have gone from complete atheist to a fairly religious and I have never encountered anything resembling "normalization of hatred and anti social values" - but it's something I hear atheists talk about a lot.

I don't know what to make of that - either I've been really lucky or the folks whose apriori stance is that there's no higher power and religion is bad, try to spin it that way.

I'm from Northern Ireland so grew up with a religious conflict in the background. Of course I understand it's different from church to church and place to place.

But on the whole as I grew up and the conflict ended I still saw, for example, women's rights being denied, fast rights being denied and scientific fact (young earth, anti evolution) being denied by religious figures with political authority.

From what I see around the world via the media much of these same values are limiting the same rights in the US, and even more so in the Islamic world.

I've had many good experiences in churches myself and with being around religious people, but I'm also very aware of the experiences women and LGBTQIA+ people have in these environments and of how often church authorities have abused their power from covering up sexual abuse to exerting undue political influences or participating in what I would see as cultural genocides in the form of missionary colonialism.

s/fast rights being denied/gay rights being denied/

I should also have mentioned that I was raised in the church, my mother was a Sunday School teacher and my grandgather operated a charity helping raise funds for churces in Nigeria. I'm far from an a priori athiest.

When you say it's not something you've experienced but you hear athiests talking about and then add that you wonder if the athiests are inherently biased, maybe ask yourself if you're not exhibiting a similar kind of bias by denying their concerns and their own lived experiences on the basis of a single data point.

Count yourself lucky then. I was raised religious and even did a mission, visiting many dozens of congregations over my time of activity and yes there were plenty of things great about it but there was a ton of sexism, racism, homophobia, and gaslighting about what is real and what is not. Some of which took more than a decade to filter out of my psyche.

Glad you're having a great experience, don't assume it's remotely representative.

Nah, I was more so ethically at odds with going to an institution for one thing while rejecting the core belief of the institution. Felt like building relationships based on lies.

Like if I went to a super active model airplane hobbyist meetup group filled with interesting kind people, so I could get the social benefits, but I actually believed model airplanes were silly and even more so that they don't actually exist

Welcome sure, willingly accept and engage with and build lasting friendships with? Eh. I've been to church as an adult trying to will myself into believing and when meeting with elders/whoever they send to talk to new people who have been showing up for a while, "I just dont have faith to overcome what logically doesnt make sense to me about this religion but I like hanging out with yall" doesnt exactly play well.

Ha, my church was anything but diverse. We all had the same ethnic background, same socioeconomic status, same religion (natch). We all ate the same food, celebrated the same holidays, and most of us went on to/came from the same handful of high schools and colleges. OK, you have me on ages, though.

I don't necessarily believe in anything, but being there and doing certain activities like prayers, rites, etc. actually kind of touch me in some level it's hard to explain. It makes me appreciate nature while hiking. It certainly wasn't the same when I was younger and more ambitious. I would not have believed I'd go out my way to memorize prayers, poems, rites willingly. The opportunity to make friends with older folks, mentor younger people, and see other "normalcies" expand my perspective on life and happier as a result. Overall, healthy communities help a lot in terms of dealing with loneliness, you feel a sense of belonging rather than just wandering without purpose or just focusing on unhealthy obsession stuff.

Sometimes I think the best you can do for people is drive them to their proverbial rehab.

You can’t lift anyone’s load, but sometimes you can get them to acknowledge them, and occasionally clear roadblocks.

Thank you. Your advice is stunningly relevant.

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