ASUS Chromebox 5 | Hacker News Reader

ASUS Chromebox 5

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I'm a bit burnt by Chrome OS devices falling out of support. After the Auto Update Expiration (AUE) point don't expect any security updates. No security updates for something which is primarily web browser based makes it pretty useless.

However this one is supported until June 2030 which is much better that I've seen before at 7 years.

https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366

Use ChromeOS Flex - it works great. I'm running it on a ChromeBox that was out of support in 2018. Perfect video conference setup.

Yeah my child's Chromebook has this problem. Was a year-old model when bought, now is at AUE date after just 4 years. Still works really well so not sure if we should keep using or not.

Is it getting security patches? That would be my primary concern since everything it does is web-based.

No security patches after expiration date. Not sure what problem is with lax security for schoolkids, maybe steal homework? https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en

Spear phishing for nudes/taking over the camera when your kid starts exploring porn?

Ed: in general, for a box long enough out of support - just assume there's a zero-interaction exploit for full root - and consider if you want any family member to sit on front of an internet-enabled web cam, with sound, keylogger and screen capture?

The problem is that the Chrome browser version is also getting out of date, and sooner or later websites are going to malfunction or block you for using an old/insecure Chrome version.

You can install your own OS on it, someone else suggested Chrome OS Flex which I guess would get you updates again and Linux or Windows should work too (assuming it’s x86, I don’t know about ARM)

Are those schoolkids' machines connected to the same network as a single adult's?

Chromebooks tend to use processors that are quite old. So you could buy a new one with something like a Celeron processor that has been around a decade and is EoL.

Intel has put the Celeron brand on all sorts of processors. It's not a very useful indicator of age or in support status.

Regardless, other than when they added Android app support that needs virtualization, I'd be surprised if anything added to Chrome OS since launch requires processor features that weren't present on the first x86/amd64 processors Chrome OS supported.

Chrome device support expiration is only based on device launch date; if someone else launched a device with the same basic hardware three years after yours, it gets three more years of support. If Google is in the middle of replacing the printer support, too bad, your final release can't use the old way or the new way; maybe printing isn't for you, etc.

This is something I've never understood. I would expect Chrome OS to be more like Linux or Windows, with a support cycle dictated by the software (including drivers) not the hardware.

Instead, it's more like Android.

TBH, it annoys me that they don't at least keep updating the chrome browser. The base OS would be a lot less risky if they'd at least keep Chrome up to date.

I can't imagine a good reason for its expiration to be as short as it is on some of these models.

I had a previous gen Asus chromebox, I upgraded the memory to 16GB and installed Ubuntu LTS. I had a novice user in the family, so I just dragged all the icons out of the dock except for the file browser, settings, chrome, and firefox. This allowed things like plugging in a SD card, printing, and emailing photos. The experience was very similar to running Chrome OS.

It was a nice cheap ($180 I believe), quiet, and small desktop that was used for nearly a decade, I think it was purchased in 2014 or so.

I worked at Google on a project called the Chrome App Builder which would let you create simple Kiosk apps which ran on these kind of devices. It wasn't uncommon for companies to buy these 5 thousand to 20 thousand at a time to run the displays in fast food restaurants, casinos, department stores, race tracks, etc.

Which looked like a really cool tool - until Google discontinued Chrome Apps...

And in the best traditions of modern product sites - what this thing actually is?

It is a generic computer to run Windows? A media player? Google Chrome device? Can it run Linux? It seems I have been let to know everything about this device, including the model of the security chip inside and its military certificate code, but I can't seem to understand what this box is actually for.

It's a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromebox which is a class of small computer that run ChromeOS

It's kind of in the name, which is why they probably thought they don't need to say it.

It's a Chromebox, meaning, a computer running ChromeOS. Usually those can run Linux with some tweaks.

Every Chromebox runs Linux.

And Android too...

It's semantics, but I think it's useful to reserve the name "Linux" for devices that are the unrestricted version of the OS, otherwise the name starts to become as generic as the term "smart".

Describe a way in which the Linux implementation of ChromeOS is “restricted”.

Are we talking "Linux, the kernel", or "Linux, the typical user experience"?

I reject the idea that a terrible UX is an integral part of Linux.

Kernel changes that are not in the upstream kernel yet for one

Inability to change DE, upgrade kernel, use kernel modules, etc.

Well, for starters, with dm-verity and secure boot to prevent modifications to the root filesystem.

IMO it's beside the point. Calling ChromeOS "Linux" is like calling cells "mitochondria". One could argue that the same could be said about the somewhat standard Linux desktop stack you'd find on Ubuntu or Fedora installs, and that's true. However, that's probably mostly just a consequence of the fact that Linux doesn't have an actual standard userspace. The closest it has is the defacto set of components you're likely to find in any GNU/Linux distro, and they are quite different than what you'll find when you boot up ChromeOS or Android.

Disclaimer: I daily utilize a cheap Chromebook as a lightweight typewriter, and I love it.

However, it's important to note that Linux on this device is subject to certain restrictions: It operates within a containerized environment, which limits both disk space allocation and system-wide access. Accessing the terminal requires navigating through a "virtual machine", and files are shared within the /mnt/chromeos directory. Additionally, the utilization of USB devices is layered behind the primary operating system support and Linux backups are separate from the overall operating system backups.

Yes. You're describing Crostini which I use often and like. Those constraints are fine with me. YMMV.

If you want uncontainerized Linux you have to dual-boot. I used to do that but it's difficult and no longer worth the hassle IMO.

Something interesting about Crostini is that it uses 9p to bridge filesystems, just like WSL2. It seems that 9p has "cracked the code" on bridging filesystems over virtual machines and differing operating systems in a way that other options never seemed to do quite as seamlessly, which I find rather interesting. Maybe it's because it comes with less baggage than CIFS? Easier to extend? Less complex than NFSv4? I'd love some commentary on this.

The filesystem bridging between Crostini, the rest of ChromeOS, and Google Drive is brilliant. It also transparently integrates SSHFS into the filesystem and the file browser.

Is spyware.

You may be talking about 2 different things:

1. Yes, ChromeOS is based on Linux, but it's not really what most people would refer to as "Linux". I think this is what you're talking about.

2. ChromeOS does have, however, some great technology to run an unrestricted version of Linux in a container, called Crostini: https://chromeos.dev/en/linux . I used to use a high end Pixel book (which was a great machine, really sad Google discontinued it - surprise, surprise, I know) as a primary dev laptop, it ran VSCode, postgres, etc. very well.

Yes, it is based on Linux, as are many televisions, car radios, phones, and other devices. That's my point re "smart" devices.

Crostini is a VM, and isn't 100% unrestricted. I'd classify it in the same category as WSL or Parallels.

You can switch any chromebook into "developer mode". Then you get bash within the terminal app, with full sudo access.

At that point, as you poke around, you find that chrome os is actually built on top of gentoo Linux.

And there is a 3rd party pkg manager (chromebrew) which gives you gcc, and thus a whole host of additional pkgs.

Yup, its linux all right. Even without going the crouton (chrome into another distro) or crossing (vm running separate linux distro) route.

The Linux kernel has always been present in ChromeOS internally. But until about 2021, it was a PITA to convert Chrome machines to "real" Linux; you had to establish a dual-boot environment which was finicky and the process was different on every machine.

But now Google has improved the process so you can basically just flip a switch and use the underlying Linux [0] [1]. It's kind of like WSL, but to me it feels like 100% Linux.

[0] https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/install-linux-on-your-chromeboo...

[1] On Intel Chromebooks. For ARM Chromebooks, you still need to dual-boot to get something that feels like "real" Linux. [2]

[2] Which is kind of ironic given that ChromeOS can run Android apps now, and Android apps are ARM based [3], so they have to be run in emulation mode on Intel CPUs.

[3] Okay they're bytecode based. Android apps on Intel Chromebooks used to run the JVM in emulation mode (I think) but there may now be a native Intel version of Dalvik or whatever-Google-calls-their-JVM-these-days.

The 'flip a switch' is a bit of a shortcut, it usually isn't just a switch but can be a screw that acts as a jumper and you'll need to open the device to access it.

Well worth it though, especially if you max them out on RAM after installing Linux and you can get them for little money as 'bricked' for instance out of contract dedicated Google Meet hardware.

It is an expensive web browsing machine

> And with up to 32 GB DDR4 memory...

It's definitely a high-end web browsing machine. The TPM and sandbox model makes it pretty handy to use as daily driver for web browsing. Definitely a good recommendation for non-technical friends and family that need more than a device with 4GB ram.

For around 5 years I used a Chromebook as my primary home computer, and it worked really great. It was a HP 13 g1, with the very high res display, insane battery life, 8GB RAM. I bought it for $550-ish, and a couple years ago got my son one and myself a spare, upgraded box (partly because it finally supported the Linux subsystem), those were each around $100.

For running ChromeOS, it was spectacular. I ended up using it a lot for connecting into my work Linux box and doing work things via tmux+mosh. And then for browsing.

I ended up replacing it with a MacBook Pro, for way, way more money, but it's a top notch computer, can do the occasional videos that I couldn't do on my other computers, but I still blush at how much it cost.

I do really miss the "just reboot into updates". Right now I'm putting off a MacOS update because I know the machine will be fully out of commission for at least an hour when I do.

On which you can run linux apps and android apps.

It's a Chromebox, and that's in the name. If you don't know what that is, nobody at the ASUS marketing organization would or should ever expect you to click on the page.

Google really isn't great at marketing. I'm sure there are many people who could use a Chromebox who don't know what it is.

Nah, it's for the best if as few people as possible use that crap

It's a box. It has Chrome on it. In a world of ambiguously named yet-successful products, I think Chromebook/Chromebox is the most straightforward naming convention you could ask for.

I like ChromeOS but it has <2% market share and has the same name as the most popular web browser in the world. Every windows and mac computer is also a "box with Chrome on it."

I don't like ChromeOS, but I gotta admit it's a perfectly fine name for the system. They don't bury the lede ("this runs Chrome") and they suffix it with a brief product identifier. If you are looking for a device with Chrome on it, this will qualify. If you need a Windows machine or a Mac, they aren't pretending to compete with them.

Is there a more straightforward name that even makes sense here?

This is a weird argument. Every computer runs Chrome so that doesn't explain why anyone would want a ChromeOS device.

There's nothing wrong with the name, but it's also not so well-known or self-evident that it never needs to be explained.

Whoa, just realized some of my past custom built desktops were Chromeboxes. (Current one does not have Chrome on it. Maybe it's a FirefoxBox?!)

I still think there's room for better communication on the product page.

It's hardware in a form factor I like. What can I use it for? Can I install any OS I want?

The whole "Chromebox" nomenclature is about as meaningful as the "Steam Machine" or "Mac" designations. If you build a designated gaming PC with Steam, it's a Steam Machine. If you've got a device running MacOS, it's a Mac. There's no real fanfare to the thing, it's just a nominative way to cover the base specifications of a device.

> It's hardware in a form factor I like. What can I use it for? Can I install any OS I want?

I'll be damned if a single product page for consumer hardware tells me any of those things anymore. I'd happily support legislation that pushes manufacturers to disclose that info, though.

Does it run Microsoft Word? Can I play Diablo 4 on it? Honestly, I don't know, but that's why it's not straightforward.

Does it run in Chrome? That should pretty decisively figure things out for you.

It's more straightforward than explaining to people that the 'X' in Xbox stands for DirectX, or that 'i' in iPhone means internet. Chrome is a browser, it runs in a box. It neatly ties two concepts together in a way that the majority of consumers will grok. Is there a more obvious name suggestion that I'm missing here?

It runs Android apps too actually, including Word.

Sure, you can run Word in a browser these days, and you can probably run the Android Word too. No, you can't run (easily) Word for Windows, as it's not Windows, nor Word for Mac.

Diablo 4 is a definite no. But probably maybe one of the VNC for games services has a frontend that works on Chrome OS; with all of the baggage that comes with.

If you're willing to put in work, older chromeboxes make decent, somewhat quirky general purpose PCs that can run FreeBSD or Windows or whatever, but it's still unlikely to play Diablo 4, because it's an intel laptop cpu with integrated graphics.

No, that could just be an overlapping brand name. Meanwhile, describing compatibility with alternative operating systems would take a few more kilobytes of bandwidth for potentially millions of dollars more in sales.

My higher education institution has bought every generation of these for Digital Signage since 2014. We use an open-source (abandonware?) Ruby project called Concerto[1] to generate webpages, and the Chrome OS Kiosk Mode[2] feature to boot these things straight to chrome-less full-screen web browsers that load Concerto webpages. It's a nice setup, but I do worry about the future support of both of those pillars.

1. https://github.com/concerto/concerto

2. https://chromeenterprise.google/os/kiosk-and-digital-signage...

We used AOpen Chromeboxes for a while, but they stopped getting updates after several years. That part is somewhat understandable, but given that they were full ChromeOS devices, it was less than ideal. Ended up replacing them with Brightsign (which I believe is just Roku for signage) boxes and the campus started subscribing to Appspace for hosting content. It's been...ok.

I think I have an AOpen Chromebox 2; still getting updates.

Ours were purchased before that second gen was available. They're perfectly capable of connecting to a remote service to download and display slides, but without security and other updates, they were no longer reliable for our uses. A simpler (and cheaper) device made more sense for as little as we needed them for. I kept one of them to fiddle with at home though.

Yup. We're just now (as in the last year) starting to see bugs with our first-generation Chromeboxes (Asus CN60) that reached end-of-life in 2019 and stopped getting updates. Some server-side change has been intermittently causing them to fail to boot into the Kiosk Mode Chrome app lately. It sucks that we're looking at replacing perfectly good hardware just because of Google's unwillingness to continue providing updates.

Are these cheaper than Beightsign players?

I don't know? How much are Brightsign Players? These are around $300–$350 with the hardware itself plus one-time management license cost. We liked that there was no ongoing subscription cost.

I like a lot of Google things, but buying something for its "general purpose OS" seems especially goofy. In my experience, it's just Linux minus the literal exact licensing and philosophy that, over time, made Linux good.

In trade for that, you get a reasonably nice UI, a few more features, but most of all a very strong likelihood that Google drops support for you like a bad habit.

TBH, a Linux box with a nice UI and all hardware well supported out of the box sounds like something we would have dreamed about 10 years ago.

Chrome OS devices are seriously underrated.

My first instinct was to reply "nah," because of how unfriendly to geeks they are compared to Linux -- but on the other hand, I must admit they are much better than Windows and much cheaper than Macs, so I suppose this is fair.

Honestly, I've played with one quite a bit, and I wouldn't even say that are _that_ unfriendly to geeks. Root, vs code, npm, etc all run perfectly out of the box.

It is more limiting if you want virtualization or even just containers, but that isn't always a requirement.

Docker runs fine under the ChromeOS Linux environment.

Vanilla VM's are an issue because the Linux environment is itself a VM, and nested virtualization has lots of quirks.

This looks really nice. I hope ram is not soldered and can buy barebone without ram and ssd cheaper.

This could be well adapted as media player, smart tv, smart speaker, router, local cloud, smart home gateway all in one - just plug usb 4g modem

I always wondered why apple don’t try to more open up Apple TV and add some MagSafe like accessories that will transform it into smart speaker and router.

Currently Apple TV can be bought for 150usd with remote, 4gb ram, 128gb memory, A15 bionic with 16x now, wifi 6, Bluetooth 5.0, thread for smart home, 1Gb Ethernet…

… but just tvOS is so limited and ports are also very limited.

As an individual, especially a "hacker", I have no use for these things. But when I went to my state's Department of Driver Services (DMV) for my license renewal, there were a bunch of Chromeboxes running the check-in process and I saw the light. Single purpose, run the check-in web site, doesn't look like it's worth stealing, when they're obsolete just swap out the box and keep the monitor, mouse and keyboard. Makes perfect sense when you're buying hundreds or more at a time for your institution.

You can easily mod them to run stock Linux.

*some of them

Not all of them run standard UEFI, and the ARM ones have all sorts of boot loader quirks ala smartphones.

The wireless charger is kind of weird. Those things generate a decent amount of heat and seem like something you’d want to buy separately and upgrade every few years rather than being stuck in a desktop.

But obviously I’m not in the target audience, because that feature has received positive press.

Target market appears to be the high-density enterprise.

My wife works at a “Chromebox workplace”. I’d say they are mostly meant for organizations who naturally are not IT-heavy (schools, healthcare) who are looking for cheap computers that are easily maintained (as everything happens in the browser) and that work for employees who don’t like or lack the expertise to babysit a computer.

These are likely the same people that would never even think about upgrading a charger. Until now they just borrowed their coworkers $3 charger and now they can just put their phone on top of their computer.

That's probably there so that users don't plug their phones into the PCs. Also saves desk space.

The "high-end" configuration (12th-gen i5, 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD) is $675.

https://shop.asus.com/us/90ms02n1-m002u0-asus-chromebox-5.ht...

edit: I originally read it as 4GB (listed as "4G DDR4 Memory x 2", not 8GB)

$1000AUD - What a rip off!

For an extra 50% you could get a whole M2 MacBook Air.

To me this is marketed towards enterprise, who wouldn’t flinch at paying even $2000 per computer. They would gladly pay it instead of the enterprise subscriptions to “antivirus turned bloatware” like Sophos or McAfee. The included wireless charger means they don’t have to buy a desk charger for all their employees (which they may feel the need to do if they give employees a company phone).

We are just really happy if employees stop plugging their phone into their computer to charge. We can give out USB condoms but we cant make people use them!

As for the price, when you need to buy hundreds of units you start to value certain other services, like combined packaging. Last time I bought desktops they were just shrink wrapped to a pallet. When I buy chromebooks they come a dozen to a box. Best Buy isnt gonna do that.

> We can give out USB condoms but we cant make people use them!

I don't work in BigCo IT, but shouldn't you just change the OS configuration to ignore the phone? Or is it also about training them to use safe charging practices for when your OS policies aren't there to force them?

Our systems do not permit usb storage devices, but you can configure a badUSB to be read as a simple generic mouse/keyboard. On high value devices we will hotglue unneeded ports but on the general class of computers you just have policy and guidance.

We also have some computers that just can't tolerate any kind of USB policy because of the devices that need to be plugged into them. Maybe they are used by EEs for prototyping or the thingy('s manufacturer) in use is ornery about it. Eventually people need to be trusted to use their stuff properly and can't have their hand held for every little thing.

It does say 4GB x2 so 8GB, but still. Hopefully its one of those products that are 50% off every second month.

ASUS marketing team is horrendous. That link shows 4GB x 2.

Why x 2? Why not 8GB?

It's still expensive with 8GB.

Because they install two 4GB sticks of ram to reach a total of 8GB. It's important to make this distinction because 2x4GB is faster than 1x8GB, but it doesn't allow for a trivial upgrade by just sticking in another stick as you'll probably need to replace both instead.

Possibly dual channel RAM so 2 x 4GB is faster than 1 x 8GB in that case and cost-wise is probably the same.

Good catch. In 20+ years of looking at configs online and in print, this is first time I've seen the total amount not presented.

Yikes. I'd expect something in the 3 to 400 range here.

For that price, you can get a machine with 4x the memory AND storage, with a processor that runs circles around it to boot, and more I/O options...

https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um790-pro

The base model is $300. The mobile CPUs are pricy. I was also a little intrigued by the IO, Thunderbolt 4, 4 displays, etc.

That said, at like $700...you can get an M2 16GB Mac Mini..which, holy hell thats a hardcore beatdown.

$800 for a Mac mini 16GB for me with a 1 year warranty.

I had a previous gen chromebox. I bought it for $180 and ended up doubling the storage and upgrading the ram to 16GB and installed ubuntu TLS when chrome OS hit end of life. It was used for almost a decade.

Was plenty fast for normal browsing, youtube/netflix full screen, and other normal/light web usage.

Direct link to user manual: https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Desktop/Vivo_PC/CN67/E213...

Shame there is only one USB-C port. Peripherals are rapidly switching to USB-C, and adapters from C male to A male are a really bad idea. It would've been way better if they'd used 1xC + 1xA instead of 2xA on both the front and back.

I'm baffled how black square box can be winner of RedDotDesign.

Am I super out of date, or is it surprising that non-dedicated GPU - Intel® Iris® Xe (i7/i5) - can run 4x 4k displays? Or will it struggle to do more than show non-moving stuff if using that many 4k screens?

If the answer is that it can do that while keeping performance OK, then the moment I heard it's possible to install a proper Linux distro on it I'd buy one. Definitely not interested in a Google OS, though.

Integrated GPUs have had sufficient fill rate to composite 4x4k pixels for a while now. 32 million pixels * 60 fps = 1.8 billion pixels per second, which is a lot but even integrated GPUs have compute measured in teraflops now. Memory bandwidth starts to become significant though - that 1.8Gpix/sec is 7.2Gbyte/s read, which is a big chunk of a DIMM's bandwidth if you have single-channel RAM.

Thanks. I've never had a great understanding of GPUs though, maybe you could clarify for me - assuming decent RAM, how much could you do on those four 4k screens? Could you have a 4k video playing on each one? A game like CSGO that's more CPU heavy than GPU? More graphically intense games?

Or is it more like it supports 4 monitors worth of business-type applications with maybe a single 4k video on one screen?

Rough guess - CSGO on one monitor and web browsers on the other monitors would be OK, four 4k videos would probably not be ok.

I looked up the specs for that GPU and they're roughly 1.5 teraflops compute and 20 gigapixels fill rate, so in theeeeory you could do a couple hundred FLOPSs and a dozen draws per 4kx4 pixel per frame, but in practice you're never going to get close to that.

Indeed, definitely worth a second dimm. Careful some chromeboxes cheap out and offer only a single dimm. This is also why memory is often limited as 1x8GB or 2x4Gb. The second dimm is definitely worthwhile for improve GPU performance.

Pretty nice. I wonder why ChromeOS Flex is not certified on any Intel NUC newer than the NUC 8.

Probably the same reason why only newer than 8000 series Intel CPUs are officially supported for Windows 11.

It's the "easiest" way to ensure TPM 2.0 compatibility, at a CPU family level of granularity. (Yes, there are 7000 series with TPM 2.0 support, but I believe that may have been the exception to the rule)

Edit: I took a look at the certified list and noticed that I indeed, cannot read.

NUC 7 came with 8xxx series (Kaby Lake Refresh) CPUs.

Yeah, seems like a glitch in numbering.

The question was about Intel NUCs newer than NUC 8, not older.

I've tried ChromeOS Flex on all kinds of gear. It just works.

Can someone recommend a cheap Chromeb\w* device reliably doing 4K@60? Some of them do that, but not with all displays. Some say they do, but have Intel UHD Graphics (as this Chromebox 5), which I find very suspicious.

https://mrchromebox.tech/

Does that case contain a fan?

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