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Comment by stef25 | Hacker News Reader

Something I figured out after riding a 650 through town for a few years is "assume you're invisible, and nothing else". That driver hasn't seen you, the road won't be clear after cresting that hill / taking that turn, there may still be cars going through the red, etc.

Crashing on a private track is one thing, crashing in the city where you can collide with walls, posts, sidewalks, cars (even parked ones), trees ... it's unforgiving even at low speeds.

Pieces of debris lying around can make you go down hard. Brake with a wheel on a piece of cardboard and chances are you'll just slide. Same for an oil slick.

The number of times I've seen shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks (a ladder, a large piece of wood, a rolling tire, a mattress) ... all that will put you in serious harm's way.

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> Brake with a wheel on a piece of cardboard and chances are you'll just slide. Same for an oil slick.

Also autumn leaves. Like sheets of graphene.

It's worth remembering that a car will always brake faster and turn more sharply than a motorbike.

It's also worth remembering that after every rain, the road is slick for a half hour or so while all the oily crap and rubbery crap washes off.

Cars always brake faster, except when the car is behind you, in which case it will brake slower than you in a straight line (and you'll get rear-ended if you stop too quickly).

If I ever need to stop very quickly, I try to end up in the "lane split" position, stopped in between two stopped vehicles. This has saved me from some nasty rear-end collisions a few times.

That's a ninja move my mom once did - cars rear ending each other in front, doing an emergency swerve in to the next lane and the guy who was behind her slamming in to the ones who were in front. That was in car. It's very difficult to suddenly swerve at speed on a motorbike.

It's very _easy_ to swerve at speed on a motorbike. In fact, it's part of the UK's motorbike license test ('hazard avoidance'). You are required to go through a speed trap at 50km/h+ and swerve approx 1m out of your riding line and come to a controlled stop. I did the swerve at 63km/h.

All it takes to swerve at speed is a small shove on the appropriate side of the handlebar, and 1m should be enough to put you either into the 'lane split' or into the other lane entirely.

I'd be way more hesitant to recommend that move in a car. With a motorcycle splitting lanes, there's a low chance anyone will be between lanes and if there is someone there, it's the motorcyclist that will likely suffer the consequences so they'll have a high level of awareness. On top of that, being squished between two cars is a much riskier place to be for a motorcyclist then a car.

I say this because I had a friend who was killed when another driver swerved into her lane while trying to avoid rear ending another car. In that case, rear ending the other car would've been way safer. So yeah, just be absolutely certain the lane you're swerving into is clear. That should go without say but apparently it didn't for the woman that killed my friend (and I bet she thought she was pulling off a ninja move until it was too late).

I've seen two people try to do the same ninja move and they just ended up hitting each other.

> Also autumn leaves. Like sheets of graphene.

Zebra pedestrian crossings as well after it has rained:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_crossing

Wet road paint can be slippery AF (also applies to bicyclists).

It's because of bad paint. Some places use cheap, generic paint and some will use the one with proper grip.

You can sometimes tell in advance by the texture. It's a gamble I personally wouldn't take.

Not sure why this was downvoted, i really agree with that.

And patched cracks (using bitumen with a lower melting point than asphalt's) are also slippery af in the summer heat.

I keep doing some controlled slips to stay somewhat accustomed to the gut feeling which prevents driving errors when a minor slip happens (like going over man hole cover when leaning, or having a slight/controlled slip on mended cracks in a corner).

How are you practicing your controlled slips?

Only when I'm in the mood.

There's a bit of a lower than street/asphalt-level manhole cover in a calm corner here. I just go over this one with a bit of an angle, started very gentle and increased speed/leaning angle a bit over time. Not for race bikes, though.

Then, when I see long-drawn-out mended cracksin a corner when its hot, sometimes I try to induce a slip on those. Takes some courage though, but the slip wont be as bad, because the patches are only one to two centimeters wide (the cracks are parallel to the road).

I ride a light dualsports bike, a KTM 790 Adventure. It has spoke wheels and takes the abuse without an issue. And it also has all the electronic features (6-axle IMU, traction control, etc).

It's just that my bum knows how a slip feels and to prevent a bad reaction in case an (semi scary) involuntary one happens. That has served me well so far, saved me from reacting badly when I was surprised in a shady & moist corner and so on.

Edit: added more text to clarify + typos corrected

I'm a big proponent of this method. I do the same thing several times each winter in my car using an empty parking lot.

Practice feeling comfortable sliding and recovering so you don't have a bad reflex and overcorrect. Absolutely saved my ass one time a few years ago driving home from work.

I was on a 55 and the roads were dry and clear. I came around a slight curve that runs next to some woods and hit black ice immediately. I lightly tapped the gas and tokyo-drifted back to the center of the lane. Felt just like what I had practiced and I felt calm while doing it. Had I panicked and slammed on the brakes, I would have gone sideways into the woods at 55.

I do this too, and I've had every vehicle I've ever owned very, very unintentionally sideways and never wrecked because there's zero panic as I've been there before.

I'd go so far as to say this is something that should be taught formally, we'd probably reduce traffic accidents significantly.

Getting into "track racing" (or taking some courses) would be one good way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_racing

Also any kind of dirt / motocross riding (and training) would probably help. Basically getting off of asphalt and into the dirt.

Streetcar tracks as well!

> It's also worth remembering that after every rain, the road is slick for a half hour or so while all the oily crap and rubbery crap washes off.

Advice from my dad (who's an ex rally driver) is "if you can see tires leaving tracks in the rain, it's not safe".

Also, black ice is something.

Finland has a running joke about "black ice surprised drivers this morning" as an annual news headline that really shouldn't surprise anyone anymore.

I'm in Canada. There are teenagers and immigrants from warmer climes encountering black ice for the first time every year.

Last I checked, training for slippery conditions was part of the mandatory driver education for getting a license in Finland, so "new driver" is a relatively poor excuse for that over there.

(The annual rear-ending fest seems to mostly cater to the "I've driven this route to work for years" audience.)

Indeed, there are certainly more accidents than new drivers. Likewise, in the pacific northwest, first rain after summer is a perpetual learning experience. But you've got me curious: do drivers experience slippery conditions before they get their license or are they merely lectured about them?

Yes. "Hazard recognition" is a separate 8-hour block of education that includes slippery conditions and darkness, and is done "on the track", not in a classroom. As far as I know e.g. the moose evasion maneuver is still part of that, and you'll be in a tailspin at least a couple of times during that day.

Before you get to that, you'll have completed minimum 4 h classroom safety training, 10 h driving with instructor, and whatever amount of theory training gets you to pass the theory test (generally two calendar months studying on the side of being in high school).

Slippery conditions aren't really hard to find in Finland. I think the black ice phenomena is really more about distracted driving.

Wow, that sounds amazing. Growing up in Seattle, the skills we got drilled on were "backing around a corner" and "parallel parking". The latter of which is always appreciated wherever I go... the former is uniformly met with bafflement. Later in life, I would learn that cherry blossoms are the prettiest form of black ice -- thankfully, that happened after I taught myself to recover a tailspin in a snowy parking lot.

To add some anecdotes on the content of that 8 hours:

In the dark, how far ahead can you see a pedestrian without reflector / with reflector at waist level / with reflector at knee level, with/without high beams. How much is that in seconds while driving at inner city / street / highway speeds.

I remember an icy bend of the road, and they told us find the maximum speed we can have at a marked line before the bend, and still make that corner staying inside our lane. So, obviously, you'd spin out a couple of times trying to find the threshold. The implied lesson was that the max speed was much lower than most thought it would be.

Same thing with the moose evasion: What's the highest speed at which you can still successfully brake, let go of brakes, swerve to one side, miss moose marker, re-orient with road, and start braking again (in real life: not go in a ditch / hit a pole, come to a controlled stop).

And after people had gotten a few rounds of "getting the feel for it" on the challenges, they gave us a minimum approach speed for each, and you had to avoid a crash from that speed to pass for the day.

There's different levels of black ice. I guess I had a lot of experience and even hit black ice and used my skills to avoid problems but this one time I crested a hill and then entire downhill portion had just frozen from shoulder to shoulder. I wasn't speeding and I had winter tires but the only thing that would have saved me is studs. The car started to drift on the crested highway and my wife even had enough time to ask "Are we going to crash" and I replied yes - and we did! It was a weird feeling having ZERO input - steering wheel - acceleration - brake - nothing.

The point is to learn when & where black ice might be, and slow your speed before you get to that spot. And more generally, drive at speeds appropriate for conditions, even outside of black ice.

Black ice tends to have pretty specific weather conditions and locations (bridges, valley shapes, etc); the newspaper headline shows up at the same time of the year, every year, and sometimes mentions the same location.

Same conclusions.

And children, dogs, birds, metal plaques...

So many things out of your control, so just assume the worst, all the time if you want to survive.

Motorbikes are just dangerous, that's it.

Another thing I'd add: say no to ridding under the rain.

Don't buy a better suit, better tires, adapt your schedule and run slowly.

Just don't use it.

There is nothing in the world you can do that will make it much safer. It's a death trap. Bite the bullet, and use something else.

But who am I kidding, young me would have read that comment, say "mehhh", and just ride the storm anyway :)

The friction coefficients in rain aren’t bad if you’re riding at posted speeds, outside of solid metal and painted lines. It’s riding right after it starts raining that you want to avoid - all of the oils which drip from vehicles get displaced by the initial deluge, and that is slippery stuff.

First, that's a lot of if, second, that's not nearly all the if, and finally, there are a lot of if about things that are not you.

Wind can also be a nightmare. When riding on a highway in Spain, south of Barcelona I was sure I was going to die cause the wind just blew me all over the place.

> “…say no to ridding under the rain.”

I use my moto for Moto camping upstate New York. I plan my trips to avoid storms, but they happen never the less. And I love my super banana suit. It keeps me comfortable while I’m trying to hold my $#!t together out on the highway.

I grew up in CA and every year people go nuts with the first rains. Lots of accidents. Same happens here—especially the spring and early summer rains. People lose their minds and forget how to drive.

Slow down. Increase following distance. And if you’re on a moto, watch for manhole covers, leaves, road markings which can be slick.

And not running your tires to slick helps, too.

> Motorbikes are just dangerous, that's it.

I would extend that to anything with two wheels at a speed of 30km/h+.

A while ago I restored my bicycle after years of it gathering dust in the cellar and now that I'm older and more aware of risks I see how much I have to think ahead to not run over anyone.

At certain, low from a car driver's standpoint, speeds a bicycle will just go straight unless of course you decide to slide.

Indeed, but strangely 2 wheels is the sweet spot for fun as well.

Such a hard choice.

I was riding a rented bike through the Coromandel outside Auckland one day on holidays many years ago, with my girlfriend on the back. Loads of nice wide curves and mountain climbs. I’m not a particularly aggressive driver but the road was clear and I was certainly fanging it from time to time.

Towards the end of the trip, the roads were mostly downhill. It’s easy to go too fast for the corners, so I back off a bit, but am still having fun.

We passed a sign saying “caution, winding road”. Great!

Then a minute or so later, we passed a sign saying “warning: falling rocks”. Ok.

Another minute and we passed a sign saying “slippery when wet”. Well it’s not raining so I’m good.

Then less than a minute later it started raining, seemingly out of nowhere.

I sat up straight in my seat, dialled the throttle back and decided the rest of the ride would be entirely defensive.

$DIETY had given me enough warnings for one day.

My Grandfather lost a leg to a motorcycle accident in 1944/1945. He was riding the while line past a military convoy in the UK as a dispatch rider when unfortunately he met someone doing the same in the opposite direction.

He had a succession of prosthetic legs, the technology was always improving but one thing he said never changed: The clinics were always full of lads in their late teens. Year after year.

"The number of times I've shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks"

I'll take that very seriously in my car too - and back off if I see a badly loaded vehicle. There's not much protection from a windshield.

I remember following a small towed trailer with some old bins on a motorbike. A pretty normal round bin lid blew off and veered to the side - nowhere near me.

I had time to register it happening but not sure I had time to move much - and I'm pretty sure it could've wiped me out. I paid a bit more attention to loads after that - but I suspect the lesson slowly faded.

I recall when deciding to get a private pilot license or a motorcycle that something like 50-60% of motorcycle deaths were not the cyclist's fault.

But that only 10% of the pilots were blameless.

If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.

Hmm ... there's this famous study that examined a whole lot of motorcycle crashes and if I recall correctly, the vast majority of injuries & death were due to: lack of experience, being close to home (when you just set off or about to arrive at your destination your guard just isn't up yet / anymore), being under the influence, excessive speed etc.

When you filter all these elements out (you're a rider with experience who "knows" the traffic and doesn't do stupid) then it's safer then you'd think.

After so many years of riding a bike in the city I feel like I just have a sixth sense about how cars are going to behave. It can be really small things. For example a car with plates from out of town approaching a crossroads driving a little too slow is probably wondering where the hell he should turn and is likely to suddenly change course, so keep your distance. And if you look several cars ahead you can predict what the car in front of you is likely to do.

It’s not an exact science in either case - the NTSB attributes crashes to the pilot for things like “flew into clouds as a visual pilot” even if the proximate cause of death was controlled flight into terrain.

The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.

It wasn’t for me; I’m not saying it’s not for others.

But if you do want to ride, take those defensive motorcycle courses and, like a pilot, be willing to say “today is not my day to ride” and don’t mix alcohol (the eight hour bottle to throttle is a good rule for any piece of heavy machinery).

> It wasn’t for me; I’m not saying it’s not for others.

It was for me for a while until I got the fear after a near crash, became a father and ... it's not really worth it anymore. Still get dark thoughts about all the close calls I had and stupid shit I did (riding 6K km through Africa with fork oil dripping all over my front break disk). Problem is as soon as I get on the bike I become fearless again.

> The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.

Yeah that's the old "you have to get it right all the time, they only need to get it right once"

They say that there are two kinds of motorcyclists: those who have had a crash and those who will. I've been riding for 10 years now and haven't had mine yet, thankfully.

But I get unreasonably annoyed when people who don't ride, or are very new to riding, parrot statistics about rider injury and mortality rates compared to cars and essentially wag their finger in smug disapproval. The reality is that the "dangerousness" of motorcycling is nuanced. You are not simply X times more likely to die on a motorcycle than in a car, there are a whole host of factors involved, like: Did you take a safety class? Do you look for opportunities to improve your safety? Is your bike well-maintained? Did you inspect it before riding? Are you completely sober and awake? Are you stressed or worried about something? Are you wearing your helmet and gear? Is your gear reflective and/or bright? Do you typically ride along in your own little world or are you constantly scanning your environment for danger?

Around here, the two most common kinds of riders are pirates (on Harleys) and squids (on sport bikes) tend not to worry about trivial details such as these and both groups represent motorcycling quite poorly in the safety department. They generally don't wear helmets (or any riding gear at all), tend to have obnoxiously loud exhausts (which don't save lives), and are attracted to motorcycles as a means to achieve a certain kind of personal image and/or to fit in with their desired peer group.

There is a third, smaller group that believes you don't have to sacrifice much fun in order to get quite a lot of (relative) safety. I like to think I am part of this group. I would love to see some research comparing motorcycle-related injury rates, taking into account more factors than just, "was the vehicle a motorcycle or not?" I suspect that a safety-conscious rider is not THAT much more at risk than the average car driver. (Accounting of course for the fact that riders are not surrounded by a strong steel cage.)

That last parenthetical does a lot of heavy lifting; most cagers (if they're honest) have a few near misses in the last year that could have been entirely deadly if they had been on a motorbike. Mine was slipping on ice during a turn and bouncing off the center median.

I suspect that your third group becomes better drivers in all vehicles because they learn more things to pay attention to, which permeates everything you do.

Everyone always just-worlds the Universe. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUHfiS7X0AAe-XD.jpg

Common in SF as the anti-theft rock. You keep it hidden in your car to prevent the car from being broken into. Works really well.

Those statistics sounded fascinating at first - but when I thought about it more, I wondered whether they actually show anything?

I mean, presumably in 2-vehicle collisions one person is at fault. So "50% of people not at fault" is just the baseline (if all collisions are 2-vehicle)

Whereas presumably collisions between aircraft are very rare.

Motorcycles have plenty of ways to kill you without a second vehicle, though.

Significant numbers of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle crashes; and of those, many are not the motorcyclists "fault" as you could commonly ascribe it (hitting an unknown oil slick that wasn't the center of the lane on a turn, hitting the guard rail, and somersaulting over the handlebars and down a cliff).

> If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.

That's not the best way to put it because it implies that motorists will purposefully try to crash into motorcyclists. In reality, it's due to inattention and the risk of a collision can be reduced by the motorcyclist through defensive driving techniques. For example, when approaching an intersection, is there a motorist approaching or waiting there who could cross my path? What's my plan to avoid that? It comes down to planning rather than reacting.

Sure, but the idea that "well there's no way that driver who just made eye contact with me would pull out in front of me" is not a thought you want to have; they may not have actually seen you.

If they really were all you to get you, you'd be dead.

> If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.

To me it’s more of a "You are the only one with a vested interest in you making it home alive and in one piece".

You are right!

This video should be shown at driving schools to remind everyone that shit can happen at _any_ time and hit _hard_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOosn78WsMg

I checked the source and confirmed no one in the car was seriously hurt.

So I will say it:

The way the tire shows up again after the mega damage: just slowly rolling up into the accident; was a pretty good comic beat.

> Same for an oil slick

I've had trouble a couple of times, at a full stop, just balancing the bike when there's a bit of oil with fresh rain.

> seen shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks

“Road furniture” as they call it in MSF

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