Comment by chris_dcosta | Hacker News Reader

Comment by chris_dcosta | Hacker News Reader

I congratulate them on acheiving your goal of writing an app in such a short time, but I whole-heartedly condemn this app's principle idea. Far from being a force for good it feeds into the incredible paranoia that seems to be prevail in the United States, that everyone is out to get them, and that there are such things as "good areas" and "bad areas".

There are huge problems in justifying this kind of classification, not least because ordinary law abiding citizens who are in a majority also live and work and play in so-called "bad areas" and never suffer crime. What becomes of their house values if such an irresponsible app were to become popular? Their (very) hard earned cash paid as mortgage payments gone to waste.

This app is pernicious in every sense. Even wealthy well-to-do areas can become ghetto-ized: If you tally up the number of burglaries or attempted burglaries in these areas you might find the stats show a different image.

We are not living in some post-apolcolyptic movie world, this is real life and has hard working real people in it, with families and children, who have no choice but to live where they can afford to, and I don't see how this app could ever be considered as "making the world a better place". For who exactly?

This kind of app threatens to push people who live in the targeted areas further down the food chain, and I just wish the developers would have been a bit more socially responsible, in their thought processes.

Rant over. Hopefully a lesson learnt.

The app was born out of personal experience. Within a month of moving to Philadelphia, I was assaulted on two occasions, including once on my very first day there. I put that down to my lack of knowledge of the area; I later discovered that a more knowledgable person wouldn't have accidentally wandered off at that time of evening to that particular area. Turns out, some of my neighbors had had similar experiences in the past in the very same area. I was later warned by local authorities that the area was known for the phenomenon of "gentrification".

Personally, I was scared out of my wits after those two incidents and landed up staying home many evenings for fear of a repeat incident. I think such an app could've really helped the general quality of my life in terms of reducing my apprehension.

I do see your point. To be honest, I didn't give the macroscopic windfalls excessive consideration. I had focused rather on the gains to individuals who stand to face the same situations that I did.

The app has not been released publicly so I think I'll do read a bit about crime patterns and their correlation to demography before taking any further step. Thanks for brining this to attention.

I see both sides here. My main concern with this approach is the false sense of security it might create. In my experience , the separation of cities into "good" and "bad" areas is only valid in aggregate. I'd rather someone took precautions and stayed alert than happily sauntered through an area that the app told them was safe. I guess it's difficult to know if this strategy works, since you'll never know if you avoided a would-be encounter with a mugger.

With that said, I can't fault your motivations, and building it so quickly was a real achievement!

Hmm, I see your point regarding conveying a "false sense of security". If the research that I spoke of turns out to be encouraging, I'll be sure to add explicit warnings and instructions. A private beta to test users' perceptions is on the cards too.

If there's anyone out there with experience in sociology, I'd be glad to have a chat.

I agree, and can also see both sides here. However, in my experience, I find myself finding the same information in a less efficient way. When I'm going to Baltimore or Philly (the two cities I'm most familiar with), I'll ask people what areas I should visit and which areas I should avoid. It would be nice to have this "wisdom" distilled into an app, at least to give me a broad overview. Certainly I shouldn't feel invincible in "good" areas, but as a non-intimidating person, it would be nice to not accidentally put myself in a bad situation. Obviously in cities like Baltimore or Philly it's not a good idea to walk alone late at night, regardless of which street you're on, but there definitely are some places worse than others.

Ah, the perils of "having to" listen to the feedback!

There is absolutely nothing irresponsible about your idea. You are not the one terming something good and bad. If the data says so, if people say so, if the reports and incidents so, then it is just right that somebody let that be known, so that stakeholders can make an informed decision.

A local is usually going to know what are the spots to avoid at what time of the day, it is the outsider who does not. All you are doing is giving that same information to the outsider that the local has, and I think that is completely fair. If in the process, a particular neighbourhood or area shows up as unsafe, then that is nothing but the hard truth becoming known. Hard, but the truth. People need to learn to live with it.

"You are not the one terming something good and bad"

You wrote the program, you set the thresholds, you are responsible. You can't absolve yourself by saying "the computer did it". It wouldn't stand up in court.

Build and release the app and ignore the whiners. All that you're doing is delivering notification to your users when the statistical likelihood of sustaining harm increases. If people get offended by the macroscopic implications of mathematics that's their issue, not yours.

Really? You're offending me because I come from a so-called bad area.

In fact most of the population of the world actually live in "bad areas" and would no doubt feel pretty insulted to find an app that categorized their 'hoods as a "no-go zones".

Let me put it another way, this app would be a reminder of how poor you are. I wouldn't want that - I can't say I know anyone who lived there would either.

As a person who grew up in a so-called bad area i feel in no way offended, because i know the actual risks.

My mother works as a railway attendend and often has to go to different cities without guides just to get to her hotel. I'd love for her to have an app or something that guides her on the safest path possible.

If you live in a bad area you shouldn't be ashamed about it, but ignoring it just makes things worse for everybody.

Me too. I'm not denying bad things can happen. An app won't navigate you away from a potential mugging, if they guy decides to try another street. That's the problem you are believing that this might be possible statistically it's not possible. This is not Minority Report, and actually you may be putting your mum in danger just by suggesting that it works. Criminals buy apps too.

The point I wanted to make was this:

If the app's aim was to draw attention to areas that needed help, for use to focus the minds of governments and aid agencies, and people with a social conscience, and they were using the data to determine the most needy areas in an aggregated fashion it could be positive thing. Where can we help next?

Do you see? This would be making the world a better place.

It is not doing this.

It is basically contributing to the view people from certain areas should be avoided, because statistically speaking they are mostly criminals.

This is not for the good of the many, it's for the good of the one.

Crikey, a downvote for wanting to make the world a better place? Is that really justified?

Wanting something is merely entitlement. Changing something is rewarded. As has been mentioned, if you disagree on the proposed solution to the "problem," a better endeavor would be to change it.

In other words: walk the walk, don't just talk the talk.

Wanting something is merely entitlement. Changing something is rewarded. As has been mentioned, if you disagree on the proposed solution to the "problem," a better endeavor would be to change it.

In other words: walk the walk, don't just talk the talk.

Edit: Oh, and complaining about downvotes isn't worthwhile either.

I believe the issue people are having with this is that its a bit condescending.

These guys built a mobile app and node API in 20hrs based on something that - they believed - is general common-sense among any city dwellers (avoiding bad neighborhoods).

If you think you know a better way of approaching the problem, then the general response in the hacker community is: build it yourself.

Asking to change wording to something less offensive is fine... but calling them out for not being socially concious and not trying to fix a problem that has affected cities for centuries is a bit of a stretch... especially considering it was a weekend project.

Why should he or she care one bit if you're offended?

Like the previous poster said, if you don't live in the area, then it's probably smart to not walk around some of these areas. Just because other people live there isn't some reason why this app shouldn't exist.

The point is, just because some people have to live in these areas isn't a reason why people who are fortunate enough to not live there should be forced to go there and put themselves in a statistically more dangerous situation.

Would you walk around most areas of Detroit or the east side of Cleveland, at night, alone?

Having been raised in the Philly area I've heard this story from non-natives a number of times, so its pretty common.

That said I think the flaw in this from a positioning perspective is it shouldn't be an alarm that says "Danger, get out now!!!" like you're in a biohazard zone, its should be positioned more like a "Street Sense" radar.

Basically you learned urban street smarts in the hardest way possible. Make this more about softening the risks of navigating unfamiliar urban areas by giving folks the same level of street smarts as a native, and less about a shock and fear-based motivator and you'll be on the right track.

I would also consider focusing on safety by highlighting safer routes pointing out things like density of businesses and street lighting, police stations etc.

Totally agree. This is a much better approach.

Highlighting police stations and business density was on our minds. With regards to street lighting, I guess we'll have to search for the data for a bit.

Maybe you can criticize the algorithm, but I doubt the notion that there are more and less dangerous areas is under debate.

What would not having such an app achieve - that people who are too naive to do any research move into crime areas, thereby smoothing out the crime stats? Is that really a viable solution?

I think the point is exactly that.

What, that naive people should be fooled into moving into bad neighborhoods? I don't think that is really a promising solution.

I congratulate them on acheiving your goal of writing an app in such a short time, but I whole-heartedly condemn this app's principle idea. Far from being a force for good it feeds into the incredible paranoia that seems to be prevail in the United States, that everyone is out to get them, and that there are such things as "good areas" and "bad areas".

The problem is that, besides the paranoia, the problem is TRUE in many parts of the United States.

Most Europeans wouldn't understand the extent of that --well, some would, like British or French, which have similar "dangerous" areas.

I made that comment, I am British I lived for many years in the poorest area of London, and I've also lived in the Banlieue de Paris. I would not class these as "dangerous".

That's an outsider's perspective, but the reality is considerably different.

I've lived in a poor neighborhood in Texas where hearing gunshots and sirens was not unusual and where several friends were attacked by a gang in a well lit WalMart parking lot.

Some poor neighborhoods really are dangerous.

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