Meta/Facebook is inviting Fediverse admins under NDA for “meetings” | Hacker News Reader

Meta/Facebook is inviting Fediverse admins under NDA for “meetings”

mstdn.social

92 pointspierat45 comments

My guess, is that they know they can't "own" the Fediverse, and their play is more about how to hedge its success and ensure they own a significant revenue stream from it. So my expectation is that they are making an advertising platform play. All the nodes cost a lot to run, and as the Fediverse grows will only get more resource intensive, and more expensive. If Facebook/Meta can build an advertising product that can fund nodes I'm sure there is a significant number that will take that up.

Obviously there will be nodes that push back, I can see nodes de-federating Meta ad supported nodes.

Maybe they will surprise us though and actually try and launch a Twitter like product as part of the Fediverse.

One of the biggest issues they are going to find though is that so many of the influential Fediverse people are so anti Meta, and anti many of the things that they would want to build. Search and caching/reposting of content seems to be a toxic topic on the Fediverse, but something I'm sure Meta would want.

It's going to be exciting watch, will have to get some popcorn.

If Fediverse admins accept the NDAs, it would be a shame. You can’t run open communities while the top is conspiring.

I would think that at least half of them (probably more) wouldn't say no to a suitcase full of cash....

For sure, most people are only as principled as their opportunities allow them to be.

Unless you are the perpetrator of some crime, you just have no reason to ever sign an NDA. Or unless you want the pile of cash they promise you. If there's no clear benefit for you, when someone says signing an NDA is part of the process, the answer is "No".

I wish we could standardize this as a developer community, but of course there are those who are placed at disadvantage due to their visa status that pretty much have no choice to sign these things, and that sets a pattern that managers expect everyone to comply with..

Is there some way to promote suggested standards in the industry? Maybe if someone like levels.fyi or layoffs.fyi or Blind were to suggest that we all start or stop doing whatever.

Traditionally, unions are used to set standards for employees' relationships with companies.

Our industry seems generally opposed to unions, so a different method might be more effective.

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read.

Ever heard of trade secrets?

Or patents and public disclosure.

Ie, if you're in the process of developing patentable technology or writing a patent, anyone to whom you disclose details needs to be under NDA, otherwise your patent may be refused due to prior public disclosure.

Or so is my understanding anyways, I am not a lawyer.

I have a patent, but ok.

Hell, even without specific trade secrets to protect, Facebook wants to control the narrative about their project and thus wants to discourage leaks.

I mean, man, Apple is legendary for how hard they work to avoid leaks, but I've never seen anyone around here accuse them of using NDAs and equivalent in order to cover up crimes.

a battle over this has developed in the web go-go days. Developers were purposefully asked to sign NDA not due to patents, but to control the applicants to rival startups. Meanwhile, certain developers were so valuable that they discovered they could make demands themselves.

You're talking about a scenario in which you're getting paid? So there's a clear benefit, which you understand and accept.

There is a clear benefit: you get to hear what they're saying, while without signing the NDA you won't.

On the other hand, there's very little downside to signing an NDA. Sure, it'll prevent you from revealing the information. But without signing the NDA, you don't get access to the information in the first place, and just as unable to reveal the information.

Benefits aren't always clear. How old are you?

It seems like the rumor is self-referential. Is there anything more substantial here?

Can you explain self-referential? Do you mean the people that were invited are talking about it in public? That’s a first person account.

As in the rumor references itself, people are taking the existence of the rumor as proof the rumor is true, but in the thread (when I last checked) nobody actually posted anything remotely usable for even a shallow tech investigation piece.

Like the guy saying he didn't pick up when Meta called. Was it actually Meta? What are the conditions for the invitation? We'll never know, but apparently this is enough proof of both an NDA and Meta trying to force admins to do something they don't want.

Hopefully that explains it.

Both @Gargron amd @dansup directly referred to there being a meeting and that it required an NDA.

Whether that is concerning to you is up to you, but 2 of the people in question already stated it.

My guess is Meta are trying bribe admins to ensure they federate Project P92.

Seems plausible! Would be an interesting event. Maybe a win for the fediverse but depends on how it plays out of course.

They are building an activitypub compatible twitter clone.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull...

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...

With 1.3 mn active users, #Mastodon is but an ant in comparison to the 3,000 mn users of #Facebook.

#FB was created as a macho website and it's become a toxic space.

Maybe the #Fediverse should have a vote if it really wants to be hooked up to such a place?

Any individuals would still be free to join.

If #Meta were #Twitter, I'm sure about the vote. #Meta is in the same league, though.

#FOSS does not mean that corporations can all join, regardless of their behavior + agenda.

#NoMetaHordes

https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110007609833914742

I'm not sure what Meta or the fediverse has to gain by attempting to get in bed with each other -- a lot of people on the fediverse are extremely anti-big-biz, and extremely anti-meta in particular.

IMO all Meta has to do to succeed here is to create a better managed Twitter. They don't need to get all fancy with it by trying to bolt on fediverse compatibility.

Disclaimer: I work at Meta, but not on IG or Project 92.

The thing about Facebook is that it is Facebook. It lacks credibility. There are a good few people on Mastodon who produce content that Facebook users might want to consume, but would be leery of actually using Facebook, or Facebook’s hypothetical Twitter-y thing.

And, assuming that Twitter’s decline continues (I’d view this as inevitable at this point, ymmv) there’ll be an ongoing stream of people, many of whom won’t want a Facebook property.

Facebook doesn’t seem to have had great success in the past in bootstrapping new social networks off its user base (see the dating thing, the classifieds thing, etc); it might want to try something new. It would arguably be difficult for FacebookTwitter to be _the_ new Twitter (if such a thing emerges at all); the brand is too damaged. Being _part_ of the replacement might be their best realistic option.

This is very much the charitable view, btw; “Facebook wants exposure to content that they’re unlikely to get _on_ Facebook, wants to work out rules of engagement” (if ActivityPub-y FacebookTwitter launches without ground rules, everyone is just going to defederate from that pretty quickly). You can see more cynical views elsewhere in the thread.

I figure they’re making some type of long term embrace/extend/extinguish play against a potential competitor to their twitter plans.

- What is IG? If instagram, what relevance does it have to the Fediverse stuff?

- What is Project 92?

- When referring to “what Meta has to do to succeed here”, what is here?

- If it’s federated Twitter, what makes it “just” in the sentence that “Meta just has to…”?

- if Meta just does Twitter-but-well-run, wouldn’t that run counter to federation?

That's the point: we just don't know what Facebook/Meta is planning.

However, we DO know that Eugen Rochko signed the NDA with Facebook/Meta from https://433.world/@Yuvalne/110566872225488614 (screen cap of deleted post). Eugen Rochko is the creator of Mastodon.

Text of screen capture:

"screenshot of a partial Mastodon thread from Tusky.

@gargron@mastodon.social: @dansup I think it’s important to understand what they’re working on and how it fits with what we’re doing. Even if an NDA is required, knowing is better than not knowing.

@dansup@mastodon.social: @Gargron Yeah that's a good point, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt!

The fediverse could really use that type of growth, and it's a good sign that they are willing to have discussions with fediverse stakeholders."

So it has been admitted with a very predictable outcome [0] that the main instance (mastodon.social) is now corrupted, compromised and has capitulated into Meta's NDA and will get even more centralized.

This sounds more like Meta used NDAs on the largest instances on Mastodon to not instance-level ban them once they get Instagram on ActivityPub which of course means that Meta is now in control of most of Mastodon already (the ones that have the most users)

So essentially, Meta has captured another social network without trying.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434

What's the mechanism by which an NDA translates to control of Mastodon instances? Because that's totally outside the scope of a normal NDA.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754304/instagram-meta-tw...

Project 92 is Meta's rumored Twitter-killer, further rumored to be based (in some part at least) on Instagram or the Instagram codebase.

Your assessment of Meta’s motives seems accurate, but tbh that’s why I don’t use Meta’s products and mistrust their involvement in the Fediverse.

My favorite was the one person who said they saw the call and just let it ring. Legend. I know I couldn't have resisted the temptation, if only to find out what kind of pitch it was. I'll bet that's something Mr. Zuckerberg (or more likely his admin) doesn't experience every day.

They have a widely reported upon hiring problem. People (myself included) ignore their emails and phone calls all the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_co...

Yes, we all have. I used to, for years before I went there (through personal contacts). I've even gotten a couple of calls since I retired from there, which is kind of silly. I'm talking specifically about a call from Zuck's office, not from Facebook recruiting generally.

I think they need a self-moderating system aka Project P92 and the entire infrastructure and people are already there. Minimum costs, your rules. Next ads.

perfect timing, people are looking for where to go from reddit and twitter. Mastadon and lemmy are a bit confusing for a newbie, I think Meta will fix that.

Metaverse will not pay for itself.

With this alternative it would mean that Instagram will be the biggest (Mastodon-compatible) social platform out there. Just like what happened with Gab. Henceforth, centralization wins again [0], even worse with the Mastodon admins going under NDA's with Meta to be corrupted with opaqueness and little to no transparency.

As it stands unsurprisingly:

"Instagram's success on ActivityPub is also Mastodon's nightmare and it tends to more centralization." [0]

So I should be expecting mass instance-level bans and the de-federation of Instagram then?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434

Do you have an alert for anything and everything Mastodon? You seem obsessed with poo-pooing any Mastodon-adjacent news item posted here on HN.

Interesting. What’s the play here for FB? IIRC there were rumors of starting up a Twitter competitor.

Yes, and according to multiple sources its going to be activitypub compatible.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull...

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...

Glad to see the instance I am on immediately has chosen to defederate from P92

What did I tell you, Mastodon with Meta censorship. It's coming. Embrace extend exterminate.

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