Ask HN: Would more people take public transportation if it had business class?
Why do airplanes have multiple classes but not public transportation?
The reason for this "no" depends on whether we're talking about an area where public transport is highly developed (e.g. most urban areas of Western Europe and Japan) or areas in which it is underfunded and underdeveloped and is mostly seen as transport for poor people (e.g. most of the USA except NYC).
In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity, which at rush hour is already at its limits. Hence, while a first class may attract a few new users, it would necessarily decrease the overall capacity of the system resulting in fewer users overall.
In the case of underdeveloped transportation, the answer is also no. The reason is that simply adding a first class to an insufficiently planned and inefficient network would still be little more than a more comfortable alternative for the less poor users to use said inefficient and insufficiently planned network through the city. In other words, the only people who would use it were those who were already doing so, be it out of principle (environmentalism), necessity (foreign students) or convenience (the bus just happens to be the perfect route to work and they can read a book on it), but who can actually afford this newly introduced first class. So, no net gain in terms of users.
If you want to increase the number of users of public transportation you don't need first class. You need more capacity and better and more efficient networks.
So a public transport service can be year after year in the red, while hollistically generating a ton of value for everybody in the city.
In my eyes the ig orance toward rhese other benefits is a shortcoming of the neoliberal ideas that have been popular over the past decades. Sure you can make a public transport company more financially viable by cutting services, but that comes with a hidden cost elsewhere.
The goal should be to have public transport so good, reliable and clean that people won't even feel a need for a business class. Maybe this is my bias as someone who had the pleasure of growing up in the alps with very good public transport systems, but hey, why not.
At most, maybe some kind of new bus services which were "first class only" could be self-sustaining, but only at a very high premium which would make them ridiculously expensive and still barely worth it for anyone.
A big issue with public transit is that it gets you to the ballpark of where you want to go but your commute from there might still be lengthy enough that you need to call an Uber anyway.
A lot of cities tend to have really great main trunk transit, but things get really sparse coming off of the trunks. Having better options for spreading out from the trunks would really help
In a properly designed area, anywhere you’d likely want to go would be walkable from a transit stop. This is often non-obvious to people who grew up in car-centric areas, where everything is necessarily spaced exceedingly far apart to make room for parking.
Good urban design goes hand in hand with good transit route designs. Often one ends up having to accommodate the flaws in the other.
I think the point is that developed cities don't need that, because there are very few places which require that much walking.
I used Google Maps to find routes around Copenhagen. Very few of them required more than 10 minutes total walking. Even fewer required that much walking once I switched to Monday commute time rather than Sunday evening.
For underdeveloped cities, which is nearly all of the US, Mordisquitos' "more capacity and better and more efficient networks" includes what you termed "last mile transport".
> lengthy enough that you need to call an Uber anyway.
That's also a cultural thing. I had a high school friend living in Amsterdam describing other Americans coming to visit. They decided a 6 block walk was too much, so they got a taxi/Uber.
I’ve lived in San Francisco and Vancouver, stayed in Seattle and LA. They’re all difficult for last mile (though Vancouver is by far the best.) they’re all quite developed though.
I think it’s more about density. It’s easy to get around in New York, and London is probably my high bar.
The limit seems to be about 1/2 mile, or about a 10 minute walk.
Or, about the 6 blocks I mentioned in my earlier anecdote, where Dutch people easily walk while Americans hail a ride.
I'm sure there are workers in Japan who are using it daily, but having to be on the train for six hours in a green card everyday is not a hell worth recreating anywhere else.
But capacity is a problem of the roads, not the busses themselves. You don't need to squeeze more people into the same amount of bus space, you need to get more 1-person-in-SUVs off the road, so more busses will fit on the road.
Busses for the poor
Subway for the poor
Uber for everyone else. Maybe express busses.
The reality is that the subway system is not getting more reliable to a point where my daughter has a harder time getting to school than I did just due to train reroutes and delays daily.
In the US the subway is not seen as an ideal and reliable transportation, even with new York having the best one in the US.
I visited London 10nyears ago and then went back to new york. Was so disappointed the moment I stepped onto the train platform.
So, there’s a starting point. Let’s stop letting thugs who reek of Lysol on the train wander up to a stranger to steal their hat off their head without consequence (actual incident I saw last time I was in the train)
Cops could be directed to arresting such people aggressively, as their primary duty. Prosecution could be greased such that they aren't getting back out pre-trial... at least temporarily. Laws might even be modified such that they are convicted.
But at the end of the day, you need to warehouse them somewhere if you're going to keep them off the train and from stealing hats off people's heads. And in the places where this is the biggest problem (California), they're constantly running into prison capacity issues that see people released early.
All this remains true even if your jackbooted enough to be willing to go through with this crap. There are some other fundamental issues that would need to be solved first, and I'm not even certain those have been identified.
The general public don't want to confront degenerates (kids vaping on the bus, loud people, people insulting others with slurs, creeps etc).
Particularly late at night I don't feel comfortable on the bus and I'm a fairly imposing guy. If I were a young woman I don't think I'd want to get night buses at all.
There is an undertone to the whole public transport conversation that inevitably tends towards people thinking that you're bigoted (racist/classist/whatever) if you don't welcome antisocial behaviour, which anyone who actually had a poor upbringing will tell you is complete bullshit. There is no excuse for behaving like an animal in public.
I forgot my bag on the train once. I reported it and they emailed me on the same day confirming they had found it and asked if I wanted it mailed to me, or I wanted to pick it up at a station of my choice. That service cost €20, but because I had the commuter card, I only paid €10.
I know the scope of this is probably more bus/train related but in my opinion the people who would want a true “business class” might take an Uber/Lyft.
My senior manager at works takes the public bus to commute to this office - just another data point.
Edit: looked it up because don’t remember from personal experience
1. https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/metropoli/cdmx/vagones-para...
The whole "government owned" and "multi class" sort of draws some very loose parallels to racial segregation of the past to me...something that was fought against so we could all get equal treatment. When you add on public funding and special interest groups, this just seems like a total no go.
In the public sphere, the best, most effective solution is rarely the one chosen...
I am just thinking out loud...
Buses are cheap for cities so they’re common, but I’ll just say it, they suck. Without dedicated bud lanes they get stuck in traffic, they’re slow, etc.
It doesn't increase public transportation use.
People in North America don't take public transit because: - it doesn't take them to where they need to go; - it doesn't take them to their destination timely relative to a car; and/or - it doesn't have frequent enough service to not get bored to death, baked into heat stroke, or frozen to death in -30C weather, on a Saturday early evening
"Business class" is just a lip stick on a pig.
That said, I don't think the lack of higher class options is the reason why people don't use public transport. Some other reasons I could think of:
- People (especially once they get used to it), might prefer to travel alone or with people they know (compared to strangers);
- For some, public transport can feel limiting, as you're bound to a limited schedule and predestined routes;
- Public transport can't and won't satisfy all the needs all travellers have, due to reasons above and others;
Similarly, I can recline and nap on an Uber from San Francisco. Not so on the Caltrain.
I’d befriended the operators/conductors on my routes and they’d always tell me when there was a nice open spot somewhere too during rush hour.
But I do agree with your point that the comfort did leave something to want for. That, and security. Napping on public transit is an easy way to get pick pocketed.