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Comment by AlecSchueler | Hacker News Reader

A friend of mine recently had quite a bad experience asking the police for help with directions as he was traveling through the Netherlands.

He was trying to figure out where he was using the map on a bus stop and approached a nearby police car to ask for assistance.

They demanded his ID which he was not carrying at the time. He explained that it was in his bag at the place where he was staying and they said he needed to be able to identify himself, so they arrested him on the spot and he was not free again until the following morning. As a result he missed a ferry and had to spend the money booking another one.

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It's strange, but you must be able to identify yourself if you're over the age of 14 [1] in The Netherlands. Having lived in the US for 20 years now, this also seems a bit draconian to me, but I didn't think much of it while growing up over there.

[1]: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/paspoort-en-identit...

That would definitely be surprising for most Americans. Many of us (like my wife) never carry id unless they plan on driving.

This is very strange for an Indian, too.

We do not carry ID unless we are driving (driving license), using long-distance transport, or going to vote.

Always carrying ID is such a strange idea!

Even in the US it's weird. I arrived on a passport + visa. No requirement to carry it. Got a driver license. No requirement to carry that either, unless I'm driving. But now that I have a Green Card I need to carry it at all times. At least until I get citizenship.

I live in a state that allows for having my driver license on my phone.

As someone who also lived on a visa in the US, I think you were required to carry it at all times like your green card. It’s just never enforced.

And technically you don't have to have your ID on your person when driving. In some states you might be issued a fine if you make the officer mad but it's not a crime and you won't be arrested.

... or entering a bar, or buying alcohol, or purchasing allergy medicine

What kind of allergy medicine requires ID? I only know of pseudo-epinephrine (not to be confused with the as-strong-as-homeopathics phenylephrine), which is cold medicine.

Claritin D and Zyrtec D are sold for allergy relief, and contain pseudoephedrine.

I feel weird without it and I always carry my ID in the US, even when just going for a walk around the neighborhood.

Not hard for me since it’s in my wallet and I use one of those slim wallets and don’t carry many other cards and don’t stash receipts in the bill area like some people do.

Its interesting how generic “travel” advice is incompatible with so many countries

the generic advice is “leave your passport locked at the hotel so you dont get it stolen by pickpockets”

but also “never not have your passport on you because the local government wants to check it at any time”

how do you all reconcile that on a day to day basis?

Traveling to foreign lands entails different rules and customs, which means new possible risks. Too many people think that their values or rules are universal. I think this is a major cognitive blind spot. It's like traveling to foreign lands with their different rules and customs is not such a smart idea, overall. Error on the side of caution.

That is a bleak point of view.

I think we're just in this strange zone here in the EU, where we all enjoy freedom of movement but the penalties for not understanding the subtle differences between states can be quite a shock if you're caught out.

> it's like traveling to foreign lands with their different rules and customs is not such a smart idea, overall.

Jeez. That is the reason why it is a good idea. Go out, and learn how similar or different other places are. Do you want to always experience the same old, same old? Yeah it causes an inconvenience sometimes, and good times at others.

or just don’t think your values and rules are universal

travel frequently changes my aspirations from being exposed to things that I didnt know were options

there are a lot of developed nations out there now, I dont know where your frame of reference is from, but some of those developed nations are very far ahead of superpowers in a variety of ways that could be beneficial to you

> too many people think that their values or rules are universal.

That's why travelling is good?

Your passport is not the only form of ID; a driving licence is easily kept in a wallet, pocket, money belt, …

A foreign drivers license is only valid when accompanied by a passport.

In my experience the general advice is : “Always carry with you a copy printed of your passport while leaving the original locked at the hotel”.

This is useless in any real situation. Gives you a false sense of security but no one will take a copy seriously.

agreed, looks like its down to "just have your passport on you at all times as a primary form of ID"

Keep your passport in a hidden pocket no easily reachable by pickpockets.

Although that helps to deal with pickpockets, can't thieves still demand your passport at gunpoint/knife-point, if they know the police require you to carry it?

what good is a passport to 99% of muggers?

Is a stolen passport any less useful to muggers than to pickpockets?

It's the same in Germany, but I still wouldn't expect the police to ask for my ID when asking for directions. The fact that you need to be able to identify yourself when asked doesn't mean that they are supposed to ask for it for every interaction.

IANAL, but 99% sure that the situation in Germany is that you have to identify yourself (give name, birthday, (address?)), but you /don‘t/ have to carry (or show) your government issued ID at all times.

I actually recently asked a German police person the exact same question if I have to have my ID/passport with me at all times. The answer was “no, you just need to own one or the other”.

I always thought as well that there is “Ausweispflicht” (ID carrying obligatory) in Germany.

Ausweispflicht means that you have to own a Reisepass or Personalausweis, not carry any of them.

You don't have to carry it, no. But if you don't carry your ID (or equivalent) and they have a reason to ask for it (e.g. you are a suspect of a crime), they can require you to take them wherever you keep your ID or to the station.

I figured it worked the same in the Netherlands, but from what I can tell it's true that you always need to carry it and you can get fined if you don't. So quite a bit more strict. That sucks.

https://de.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Rechte_und_Pflichten_im_Umga... (German)

I could give a damn about 2A/the right to bear arms, but if I had to ID myself to police for asking for directions…

Please complete the sentence for me. How does this thought end?

He would be angry at such a stupid law.

I would be angry at such a stupid law

i would agree if someone is suspected of committing or witnessing a crime but to require ID for simply asking directions, and then getting arrested, seems like exactly the kind of overreach that gives a bad image to cops.

Chances are there is more to the story here. We're getting third-hand information after all.

True, I don't think of it much now that I've been living here for a few years. But it's scary how easily someone can be caught out while traveling through the NL from one part of Schengen to another where these rules don't apply.

Honestly, lots of us Dutchies leave the house from time to time without ID. I don’t even think to carry it when I go running, or to the gym. And most of the time if you interact with the police while out without your ID it isn’t really a problem.

But that is of course only reliably true if you’re Dutch. The right kind of Dutch, too. Autochtoon used to be considered the polite term. (I always found it rather menacing personally.)

If you have contact with a police agent and you’re speaking English or are brown, yeah, better have that ID.

Of course anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time - maybe the agents the OP’s friend approached were conducting surveillance and interpreted an approach by a stranger without ID as suspicious under the circumstances. But I have also simply seen lots of differences in how police decide to enforce the law based on whom they are dealing with.

your mind has been corrupted by US propaganda

What does the US have to do with The Netherlands required people to have ID at all times?

he's implying that cops mistreating foreigners and brown people isn't true and that US media has portrayed this as a thing when it isn't one

to be clear, my stance is BLM/ACAB

They should consider that the courts have literally ruled that the Dutch police are guilty of racial profiling: https://www.politico.eu/article/dutch-police-found-guilty-ra...

You set up an entirely new account to insult someone’s thought process? That’s very weak. Particularly because the conversation is about a totally different country.

This pisses me off to no small amount (as a Dutchman). Yes, the law says you have to be able to identity yourself, but you can only be asked if there's a good reason. Not a lawyer, but asking for directions is very much not a good reason (even when not speaking Dutch).

Interestingly the English explanation is much more ambiguous than the Dutch:

"These officials [police] may not ask to see proof of identity without giving a reason. " https://www.government.nl/topics/identification-documents/co...

Whereas in the Dutch version:

"De politie mag alleen uw identificatiebewijs vragen als daar een goede reden voor is." Translation: "The police may only ask for your identification if there's a good reason to do so" Typical.

I would lodge a complaint: https://www.politie.nl/onderwerpen/klacht-over-de-politie-in... (page in Dutch)

Carrying a passport is a legal requirement in many countries, especially common for tourists. But if I accidentally left it in my hotel? I don't think I would get arrested on the spot. Worst case they'd take me to the hotel so I could produce it.

I suspect there is more to this story - i.e. they had a reason to think he was an illegal immigrant or on drugs or something - of course that reason could be something racist or completely unfounded, but I presume they don't just arrest anyone who forgets their ID.

That is very stupid.

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