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Comment by paulkrush | Hacker News Reader

"It would have been confusing to say “X, Y, Z, and.” So, the students said, “and per se and.” Per se means “by itself,” so the students were essentially saying, “X, Y, Z, and by itself and.” The term per se was used to denote letters that also doubled as words, such as the letter I (for “me”) and A. By saying “per se,” you clarified that you meant the symbol and not the word.

Over time, “and per se and” was slurred together into the word we use today: ampersand."

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I’ve heard some people say that as a child they thought the letter before P was “Elemeno.” So it certainly tracks that if you ask kids to recite “and per se and” that they might think the whole phrase is the name of the letter.

My kids thought Elmo was part of the alphabet for an embarrassing amount of time.

This is why I taught my kids to sing the alphabet forwards and backwards. If you sing it forwards it can sound like you are saying "elemental pee" which sounds scientifically interesting but doesn't help anyone learn what that letter is supposed to look like.

We used wooden alphabet puzzles as a guide so it could reinforce the idea the you are saying L-M-N-O pretty fast.

Since the ABC song is one of three songs that use the same tune it is easy to teach an infant or toddler their alphabet as you sing them to sleep.

The ABC song, Baa-Baa Black Sheep, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star all use the same tune.

Add in the backwards ABC's and you get four songs sung with the same tune so that the whole thing becomes tonally monotonous and soothing and it will tend to relax your child as you rock and sing.

With practice I got pretty good at mixing verses from these four songs on the fly so that the song eventually morphed into a single tune with disconnected lyrics. I used it as a challenge to keep myself awake while I rocked them to sleep.

For grins, the Backward ABC lyrics are:

Z, y, x, w, v, u, t...

S, r, q, p, o, n, m...

L, k, j, i, h, g, f...

E, d, c, b, and a.

Now I've sung them backwards to you,

Can you sing them backwards too?

Pretty easy to see how each letter breaks free of the original forward limitations.

I like this post, but I cannot get your backwards ABC rhythm to make sense.

Yeah I can’t get it to fit the usual melody. Did you happen to put it on YouTube?

No I haven't recorded it for YouTube. I do have it on some home video somewhere, maybe. I would probably have to dig for that and maybe do a format conversion from 8mm tape.

I diagrammed it out in the post above. I hope that helps.

This works for me:

Z, y, x, w, v, u, t...

S, r, q, p, o, n, m...

L, k, j,

I, h, g,

F, e, d, c, b, and a.

Yes this also works but the reason I went with "L-K-J-I-H-G-F" over this deals with the fact that I can get each letter distinctly enunciated whereas if I mash the last line as you did there can be some muddying of the first two letters and you end up with another "elemental pee" problem in teaching the letters.

I think F and E are too easy to turn into "effy" when you sing it out.

It's a personal preference. Yours works too.

Oh, you're right. That is a good point. And after looking at your detailed breakdown [0], your original line breaks do make sense. It does work better singing as "Baa Baa Black Sheep" with different lyrics than as "The Alphabet Song" with backwards lyrics.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36373590

You have to do it like you handle the switch from Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star to Baa, Baa, Black Sheep.

NOTES = 0

ABC = 1

BWABC = 2

TTLS = 3

BBBS = 4

[0] C, C, G, G, A, A, (long G)

[1] A, b, c, d, e, f, (g)...

[2] Z, y, x, w, v, u, (t)...

[3] Twin, -kle, twin, -kle, lit, -tle, (star),

[4] Baa, baa, black, sheep, have, you, (any wool)?

[0] F, F, E, E, D, D, (long C)

[1] H, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, (p)... (the elemental problem rises because they crammed an extra letter into this line and distinguishing each individual letter gets muddy because they used the two D notes for four letters - l, m, n, o. This is not optimum)

[2] S, r, q, p, o, n, (m)... (gives each letter an opportunity to be clearly enunciated)

[3] How, I, won, -der, what, you, (are)...

[4] Yes, sir, yes, sir, three, bags, (full)

[0] G, G, F, F, E, E, (long D)

[1] Q, r, s, t, u, (v)... (pause on the F at S, or use a long F between S and T sop that the third and fourth notes merge on S)

[2] L, k, j, i, h, g, (f)... (fits the flow and allows each letter to have a distinct sound)

[3] Up, a, -bove, the, world, so, (high)

[4] One, for the, mas, -ter, one, for the, (dame)

[0] G, G, F, F, E, E, (long D)

[1] W, x, y, and, (z)... (Both notes G, F are merged to handle the single letter they are sounding and the E includes "Y and" to get you to the last letter)

[2] E, d, c, b, and (a). (This handles the rhythm like we see in [1] treatment of the stretching or pause on the third letter of the series)

[3] Like, a, dia, -mond, in, the, (sky)

[4] One, for the, lit -tle, girl, who, lives, down the, (lane)

[0] C, C, G, G, A, A, (long G)

[1] Now, I've, sung, my, A, B, (C's)

[2] Now, I've, sung, them, back, -wards, (to you),

[3] Twin, -kle, twin, -kle, lit, -tle, (star)

[4] Baa, baa, black, sheep, have, you, (any wool)?

[0] F, F, E, E, D, D, (long C)

[1] Tell, me, what, you, think, of, (me).

[2] Can, you, sing, them, back, -wards, (too)?

[3] How, I, won, -der, what, you, (are)

[4] Yes, sir, yes, sir, three, bags, (full)

That's all I got. That's how I sing it. I tried to break out the notes as they flow in each song. Commas separate each note in the song and the parentheses around the last word or letter denote a long note. Where you see two words behind one comma those two words use the same note - "for the" is an example. It all fits for me though I guarantee that there is more than one way to skin this cat. This way works for me.

It took me a bit to get it, but this is an excellent explanation. Thank you :)

Your kids will beat the field sobriety test!

Something I've always wondered is how people actually do the backwards alphabet test. I don't think I could efficiently do it sober, but I do have an O(n^2) algorithm for doing it; sing the ABCs in your head, and only say the letter before the one you've already said.

So like, abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyZ, abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxY, ...

You can also use this algorithm to reverse a linked list, though you will not get the job if you do. I'm wondering if the cops are as picky as Google interviewers.

A few years back for fun, I learned to say the alphabet backwards as quickly as I could. I used basically the same technique I use as a musician to learn complex phrases; start with a short sequence (like "z y x w") and repeat it over as slowly as you need, and increase the speed as you get better at it, then either extend it a few more letters (e.g. "z y x w v u t") using the same strategy or learn the sequence starting with the next letter separately ("v u t s r q") and then "glue" them together when you're proficient with both. It took me only a few minutes of practice to get the whole alphabet this way, and it's stuck fairly well despite not really ever practicing it other than to occasionally show people as a party trick. Strangely, the letters seem to work better in that order for me; I can actually say the alphabet faster backwards rather than forwards, although it's hard for me to to tell if that's actually due to the sounds blending better objectively or due to the fact that I tend to have a bit of trouble with enunciating clearly in general and the "backwards" route skipping some learned bad habits that the forwards route uses.

Since I don't drink any alcohol and don't drive, I can't imagine I'd ever have a chance to use this in a field sobriety test, but I also suspect that a cop who pulled me over wouldn't find it particularly amusing, so I wouldn't be eager to try it anyways.

I’ve always assumed a gotcha here is when the driver says “officer, I don’t think I could do this sober” and now they’ve admitted guilt.

Look up the field sobriety test Steve Martin does in LA Story - hilarious

Is this online anywhere? I took a look but couldn't find a snippet on youtube.

Funny you mention that since the first time I heard them sung backwards involved a field sobriety test that the driver passed.

I decided that it was a useful skill. Later when our kids were born and the long early morning hours were filled with rocking chairs noises, diaper changes, feeding and burping I took the opportunity to add that version to my song list. Sometimes I ended up singing every song that I knew any words from so it helped a lot when I was tired to focus on one tune.

Are there any colemak enthusiasts teaching their kids the alphabet in colemak order as read from the keyboard.

I for one will teach my kids Dvorak.

Single-quote/quote comma/less dot/greater p y … a o e u i d h t n s …

If you don't care about rhyming you might as well just change the original song.

abcdefg, hijklmn, opq, rst, uvw xyz

By the way, there is a really irritating Japanese version of the English alphabet song whose verses don't end on the "ee" letters: G, P, V, Z. (Z being "zee" in the USA). So there is no rhyme, and less variety in rhythm.

It goes something like.

A B C D E F G

H I J K L M N

O P Q R S T U

V W and X Y Z

Y and Z

Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlZNXUWh9Do

*facepalm*

You're not wrong. That is distressing.

I cant watch the video now, but the British version is a bit like that:

A B C D E F G

H I J K L M N

O P Q

R S T

U V W X Y Z

Yes it doesn't rhyme but it scans so much better that, once you're used to it, the American LMNOP version sounds ridiculous.

The LMNOP is just rhythmic variations: you have a run of 16th notes.

Such a pattern of 16ths occurs in "have you any wool" in the English nursery rhyme "Baa Baa Black Sheep", which is sung to the same tune.

I agree that sort of flourish is a lot of fun, if it's not in a song trying to teach you something so fundamental.

For anyone else considering this method, I don't recommend it. I, unfortunately, taught myself the alphabet backwards one day when I was REALLY sick and needed to lie down completely still in a silent room (so I was too bored to do anything else).

Now, I sometimes get confused about what letter comes next. If I'm at `G` am I supposed to say, GFEDCBA or am I supposed to go from my forwards anchor of ABCDEFGH ? This happens when I'm at a nice anchor in my backwards memorization that's a non-anchor in my forwards memorization.

But I mean, yeah, neat party trick that I can say ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA (and also type it really quickly).

Interestingly, my breaks are different from the parent commenter's:

ZYXWVUT

SRQP

ONMLK

JIH

GFEDCBA (this part was easy from the start because I played piano)

No alphabet song involved at all.

> Now, I sometimes get confused about what letter comes next.

Reminds me of this classic, the reverse bike:

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

My whole family can do this. Dad would drill us after supper on summer evenings. We also knew the entire list of Presidents (up to the 1970's anyway). To be different I did the Vice Presidents.

The only one that ever got any mileage out of it was my little sister. At a poker party she was going into the kitchen for some soda. Somebody asked as she entered 'Cindy, can you say the alphabet backward?' As she opened the fridge, got the 2-litre and poured, put it away and left the kitchen she sang the alphabet song backwards. Never stopped to ask why they wanted to know. Just did it and left, cool as a cucumber. My sister is so cool.

I thought there must be two versions of the letter P: regular P and elemeno P.

I wasn't sure why there would be two kinds or when to use each kind, but I figured they'd explain later.

pre-kindergarten I thought it was elemeno!

Reminds me of a silly skit one of my old coworkers did a while back (one of many):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ynnZzJjg

And this is how windows are opened, skeptics are born, and deep thinkers who are not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom are created. Pull back the curtains to reveal how everything really works.

That reminds me of how Big Bird (the child proxy in Sesame Street before Elmo came along) thought the alphabet was one long word, pronouncing it "Ab-kuh-def-ghee-jeckle-manop-kwer-stoov-wixizz", and sang a song pondering what it might mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTvhKZHAP8U

Those Sesame Street people really understood how a kid's mind works.

Similarly 'Saint Nicholas' becoming 'Santa Claus'

I have seen this explanation printed so many times, and unattributed, that I wonder if students of that era actually said "and per se and".

Me too, but given certain educational methods of the past, I can also imagine it happening. Here's an example of teaching Latin in the 19th century. Read the first 1/3 from the link from today's front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36354213. Latin was taught by rote, by repeating without understanding. One of those head masters must once have thought it would be correct to call it "and per se and," and had the power to make generations do it.

On the other hand, why it would have become so widespread as to become a word is what makes me doubt the story.

Some probably did, the same ones that addressed their dad as "pay-ter".

I'm sorry, can you explain this one?

In British families of a certain class, at least on TV, the son would address the father in Latin as "pater" but with a long A sound. It comes off now as an absurd affectation, much like using "per se" regularly in the name of a letter.

From The Frumentary by William King (1699)[0]:

  U’s conversation ’s equal to his wine,  
  You sup with W, whene’er you dine:  
  X, Y, and Z, hating to be confin’d,  
  Ramble to the next Eating-house they find;...   
  And Per Se And alone, as Poets use...

See also an elaborate classroom game described in the Documents of the Board of Education of the City of New York (1861)[1]: "One [student] represents &—called ‘And per se and’—as being appended to the alphabet, but not belonging to it....The merriment of this pastime turns upon the endeavor of An’ per s’and to take precedence of Z, and so get fairly into the alphabet..."

[0] A 1781 printing: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101068156031&vi...

[1] https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433075984876&vi...

These are great. Did you just know about these already or did you research them just now? If the latter, how did you find these in such short order?

Always impressed by people who can find primary sources for things quickly!

In this case I just did a full-text search of HathiTrust's catalog for "and per se and" (quotes of course are part of the query in this case). These are two results of many.

Not just a fisherman, but a teacher. Gracias!

The reason I’m inclined to accept this narrative is that not only have I not seen any plausible alternative etymology, there is no alternative etymology available period.

I would recommend against that methodology. A lot of etymology is not easy to find, but plausible etymology is easy to make up.

You must know my wife. She's quite confident that the idiom "balls to the wall" has something to do with a person being put up against a wall to be executed by gunshot.

A and I used to sometimes get 'per se' to clarify that people were referring to the letter, not the one-letter word

Yep, I learned this from the History of English podcast. I highly recommend it for anyone who likes this sort of trivia about the evolution of English.

And here I thought ampersand had something to do with Ampere, the unit of electric current…

I really like this as an alt etymology. If it got popularized to save characters in telegrams, it could have been the “electric and”. Another way it could be from Ampere is that his son was a philologist and could have conceivably promoted the idea of an ampersand.

Cicero’s educated Greek body slave, Tiro, invented it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Tullius_Tiro

https://creativepro.com/ampersand-history-usage/#:~:text=The....

I think you might be confusing ampersand with the Tironian et which looks like a 7 - Unicode point U+204A. It is still visible in Ireland on the old Post 7 Telegraph boxes. Tiro invented a shorthhand system and his Tironian et represented the sound "et". I recently dived into this whole subject so it's kinda fresh in my mind.

Maybe the second link i provided has it wrong. You seem to know more so I defer to you.

From the book “Shady Characters” by Keith Houston

"Among Tiro’s notae was an innocuous character representing the Latin word et, or “and.” Though this was only one symbol among many (in their most elaborate medieval form, a system descended from Tiro’s original cipher comprised some fourteen thousand glyphs), the utility of Tiro’s system ensured that his et sign would considerably outlive both its creator and its sponsor. This was not, however, the storied ampersand: when Tiro created his so-called Tironian et, the ampersand was still more than a century away."

The book itself is worth a read for all the other punctuation marks it discusses.

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