European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries | Hacker News Reader

European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

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729 pointsgumby606 comments

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence.

Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device?

Please, EU: bring a law that forces manufacturers to release their drivers / firmware whenever they stop updating a digital device.

> Please, EU: bring a law that forces manufacturers to release their drivers / firmware whenever they stop updating a digital device.

I wish I could upvote this more.

It's a crime how I had to throw away in the past perfectly usable devices because they were forced into obsolescence.

I don't see how this would work given modern supply chains. It can be extremely difficult to track down all of the owners of a particular IP and when you do, many of them may not even exist any longer making it near impossible to get any sort of permission to do something like this.

And I would guess by what now are "green" and carbon zero companies

Seems completely trivial to comply with this law while not releasing firmware.

Is there any precedent for forcing firms to release software? And if so, has it resulted in a third party adopting the support after it?

No, it's batteries too. And water/dust/fluid ingress protection. Modern phones are sealed up pretty tight because users want them to be waterproof. This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!

> This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!

Except it doesn't. The last two waterproof phones I had had user-replaceable batteries, a USB port, and even a headphone jack.

What it does is add a few dollars onto the BOM.

My GoPro's are waterproof yet they have removable batteries. It's not impossible, but it does mean they have to be every so slightly thicker.

But really waterproofing the phone doesn't require gluing everything together to within an inch of its life, just a gasket and a few screws. Yes it will add $5 or something to the cost of a phone, totally worth it, and will improve repairability in general to boot.

What a bunch of crock.

I have this new Nokia phone with a replaceable battery. It came with the pin you can use to open it (probably costs a few cents to manufacture, but if I had plenty of time to spare, I could've made one with a sturdy piece of plastic and sandpaper). The "mechanism" that keeps the back panel is just a piece of rubber, probably the same kind you find on hermetically sealing food containers.

Also, very few people want their phones water-proof (what for?). And even if you really, really wanted that, you could like spend 5-10 Euro on a water-proof case.

I wonder about this.

First, it seems like you could just make the phone part waterproof and if they dunk it, they have to replace the battery. I have ruined a phone by putting it through the wash, and I would have been very happy to just replace the battery instead of chucking the phone.

Beyond that, I wonder what the reality is for waterproofing needs. Are people taking smartphones diving? IP65 means it's resistant to 'spray' - like rain, not a firehose - and it seems like a battery compartment with a tight-fitting cover would be more than enough for this. IP68 doesn't apparently mandate a depth rating but recent iPhones are tested to 6 meters for 30 minutes. That's more water pressure than 99% of those iPhones are ever going to see.

I don't personally think the non-replaceable battery has anything to do with IP rating, it's because manufacturers want soft-sided batteries with more delicate terminal connections, for volume/capacity reasons.

This is just ridiculous.

See Jerry Rig Everything. He even says that there are solutions for this even for glued-up phones, manufacturers just don't want to implement them because they're for sure against battery replacements.

It's not like glue is some sort of magic substance.

> users want them to be waterproof

They also want displays not to crack. That is why lot of them are buying protective cases.

Are not sealed up phones overrate in this context?

As I keep mentioning, Nokia has been building hardened phones for construction workers, with replacement batteries, for ages, all the way back to their feature phones.

I want replaceable batteries in that I want to replace them like 2-3 years after purchase. Which is already possible for a negligible price.

You really shouldn’t want to replace batteries on the fly in general — it makes stealing easier (modern phones can’t be powered off easily without authorization) so you may find it before it loses power, waterproofing suffers, etc.

Of all the incredible technology in a modern smartphone, it’s too hard to make replaceable batteries?

Of all my phones that broke, none was due to fluid but all due to a cracked screen.

Yet I don’t see manufacturers add better screen protection, quite the opposite in fact.

So phone cases/bumpers it is for me now.

So is it waterproof capability or planned obsolescence? You all make it sound nefarious when it is just PM's doing what PM's do.

solved see galaxy s5

I don't. I just want it splash resistant - it's more than enough. just because there is a promile of morons that can't handle the phone doesn't mean that a lots of users should be prohibited from easily changing the battery... because of that lots of devices end up on landslide because users can't get enough charge I fit anymore...

I loved lumia devices - easily openable back to replace battery, nice materials (rubbery polycarbonate?) that offered nice grip. Having PC displays instead of glass would be awesome - no need for extra protective case because the shatter woild be a tning od the past. At the worst, a scratch resistant screen protector, which we all already put in the devices either way to help avoid screen cracks..

All my last phones the battery had issues, including two phones where the battery became a ball instead of a rectangle right after warranty ended. And the battery caused problems before the software.

I ended using even a KaiOS phone just to have a phone I could replace the battery. People keep moaning about phone being waterproof yet my phones fail on me nowhere near water so what is the point?

> Please, EU: bring a law that forces manufacturers to release their drivers / firmware whenever they stop updating a digital device.

I don't see much hope of such a thing being decided soon, if ever. The incentives for politicians are mostly not aligned in this direction.

The much more realistic path towards having devices/software that can be used for more than 3-5 years is IMO if more people started supporting projects like postmarketOS, fairphone, shiftphones, Librem, (mntreform for laptops) and other such croud-funded and more open/free designs.

Once such devices/OSes work good enough to be usable in day to day life without serious hassle/disappointments, more people will actually use them and a community can grow, allowing the products to mature.

I think a very good example (in software) is the f-droid app store that has reached a sufficient level of maturity that many people now use it exclusively (instead of the Google play store).

These phones are unusable in a large part because of marketplace lock-in, and in another large part due to unavailable drivers. These things cannot be changed through "grassroots movement", these need to be recognized as mobile phone companies violations of consumer rights and be treated as such.

> The much more realistic path towards having devices/software that can be used for more than 3-5 years is IMO ...

i used any and all of my smartphones that long. no problem.

I agree that opening up the software side of devices is important, but this is still a huge win.

I and many, many other people don’t mind using a phone or tablet for many years, even with an obsolete OS. But battery life tends to be the #1 factor in this devices ending up in the bin.

In fact, by making battery changes easier with less intensive surgery, it’ll put even more pressure on manufacturers to allow for repurposing them with a different OS.

Maybe mandate a 5-year limit before a device must be allowed to be unlocked allowing alternative software to be installed, thus giving these disposable devices a far longer lifespan.

How long software updates are provided is part of the repairability score

https://www.heise.de/news/EU-Kommission-bringt-Reparatur-und...

Battery in my last device became too weak long before device was useless. Device was perfectly fine, just that battery did not hold long anymore.

I had a couple phones I really liked where the battery got puffy - ie, very very bad - while the device was otherwise great. Tried replacing with an ifixit kit, but the screen got borked in the process. Total waste...

I'm still running a pixel 2 which is almost 6 years old now. I had to have the battery replaced 5 years in. Although it's not the most practical you don't have to replace the full device. Manufacturers would prefer you do.

Yeah battery will virtually always be the first to go. Unless you crack the screen.

There are several things that limit the lifetime of a phone:

  1. Battery
  2. Software
  3. Charge port/headphone port
  4. eMMC storage runs out of writes
  5. Accidental damage
  6. Screen scratches
  7. Wanting more RAM/storage and faster processing

Batteries are getting better, and we can extend the life of a LiIon battery by about 5X by limiting charging to 80%. If batteries inherently had as short a life as they commonly do in phones, then electric cars would be doomed, but there's no real reason why we can't get phone batteries to last 10 years or more.

The software can only be solved by constant effort. There are certain things that could possibly be done to make it easier, such as arranging the device-specific stuff so that the effort already spent on producing a newer set of software for a newer device can be more easily back-ported to the older devices. I think this will only be solved by legislation, such as a law saying that the software must be updated for X years, or even just a law saying that the support duration must be very clearly advertised with the phone allowing consumers to make a choice.

A USB-C port is rated for a minimum of 10,000 plug/unplug cycles, which should be enough to charge the phone once a day for 30 years. If that isn't actually being achieved then we need to ask why not.

The eMMC storage is a problem with many phones. My phone is just starting to slow to a crawl because its main storage is old and it takes a while for it to perform certain writes (or something - it's hard to get an accurate picture of what is happening in there). There is zero information that a consumer has available when deciding which phone to buy to tell them which ones will have a problem with this. This seems to be a fairly obvious target for a law, similar to the software support duration.

Accidental damage - I remember reading a statistic about how the average phone survives a ridiculously short time before being dropped and broken, and I don't get it. I haven't dropped/broken a phone ever. I guess we just let the people who are constantly dropping their phones pick up the tab on that one.

Screen scratch protection is also getting really good now. My current phone has lived in my pocket for several years, and there's almost zero scratching on the screen. Just don't keep your keys in the same pocket.

In terms of replacing a phone because you want something better - I had a look recently to see about replacing my phone. The ones on the market at a comparable price to what I spent on my current one had specifications that were really not much better at all. It doesn't make sense - if a phone with those specifications is deemed suitable for today's market, then my old one with almost identical specifications should be fine too.

So, I don't really see any barriers that aren't insurmountable to a phone lasting several times longer than they do at the moment. Ten years should be easy, 15 years should be possible. At the moment, it's more like 3 if you're very lucky.

Drivers / firmware aren't quite the right solution. They're tied to obsolete android, so they'd still be useless.

They should have to provide documentation for every IP block in the device, source code for any drivers, and the ability to unlock the bootloader.

This would make it easier for people to back-port modern android / iOS, or just run linux on old devices.

Actually the EU RF, product liability and cyber security regulations rather point into a direction that disallows use of aftermarket firmware that can delay onsolecense and encourages lockdown. Instead of overregulation we need create an economic system that encourages sustainable use of resources. The EU just does what they can do best: regulate

> we need create an economic system that encourages sustainable use of resources

Which would require regulation, or you have way too much faith in humanity. Regulation isn't bad, just dumb regulations.

Proper cost attribution of externalities could provide an alternative to regulation... unfortunately the only way we currently have to measure these externalities is regulation. Directly regulating the bad outcome instead of the externalities that contribute to it is less likely to lead to misaligned economic incentives.

Regulation is not a bad thing - though within the US a fair amount of regulations were constructed to increase the barrier to enter a market at the behest of lobbying.

It seems that they are too good at it, to the point of outlawing new competitors and even hobbyists who simply can’t afford to deal with the paperwork; eg see the shit-show that security regulation around OSS.

https://hackaday.com/2023/04/21/the-cyber-resilience-act-thr...

What on Earth should the EU do, that’s their job.

All firmware should be open source, including drivers and particularly graphics drivers. It boggles the mind that a hardware manufacturer refuses to make available the source of the software that actually runs the hardware you paid for.

IMHO releasing full hardware documentation is far better.

Incidentally, a lot of cheap Chinese phones based on Mediatek have plenty of leaked documentation available, and a thriving aftermarket community as a result of that.

I find it ironic that one of the few phone brands adressing all these issues (replaceable batteries, rootability, 5+ years spare parts sales) happens to be the ultimate "Chinese brand" phone: Unihertz :p

No woke bs marketing, no coorporate white washing, no marketing with "green sustainability": they just do it instead of talking about it.

And the result is that nobody knows about it.

Doesn’t need to be hyperbolic bs marketing just to advertise that your phone has these features.

> The problem is not really the battery anymore.

Huh, why not? I'd love yours too, but battery is also good. What do you do with a superb open source phone where you need to replace device because battery is dead and you cannot replace it? Let's please aim for both and everything!

They made plans to enforce manufacturers to provide updates for longer (3/5 years for OS/security updates) [1]. Though you might argue that 3/5 years is not enough, this seems like a more effective way to elongate the lifespan of an average user's phone who might not be comfortable with installing and using an alternative OS.

Not sure what the latest update on this is. IIRC the planned penalty was to make the manufacturer give full refunds to the consumer for devices that violate the requirement.

[1] https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-smartphone-updates-rules...

I’ve made a similar suggestion on HN before. Have a minimum support period for internet connected devices, and once you stop updating after that minimum, you’re required to unlock the hardware and open source everything.

That can't work, because the suppliers will be bankrupt already. However one could something like Portico, which keeps journals in archive and releases them to the public if the original goes down. Manufacturers could be forced to deposit all the source code for the software they release on their product, and the deposited source code be released to the public after X years if there is no support for security updates any more. The difference being, if they don't comply the EU can withdraw the products from the market _before_ they're sold.

Why don't they sell updates? Even if they open source everything, I'd pay for them to support my phone for longer and I imagine the margins on a SW update outweigh the cost of producing more hardware.

> Why don't they sell updates?

Because given limited resources, companies prefer to spend their resources on what pays the most. Manufacturing updates may be comparable or even more expensive than making new devices.

If this is a priority for you, you could vote with your wallet and purchase a fairphone next time your current phone dies. They provide fairly long software support and always had replaceable batteries.

That doesn’t work at all, and is just some capitalist dream.

The battery is still a huge problem, this is just clouding the issue with something else. Batteries wear out and have a fraction of their lifetime in a few years and can be replaced for under $20

> Please, EU: bring a law that forces manufacturers to release their drivers / firmware whenever they stop updating a digital device.

I want to believe that something so good could happen.

Apple mobile devices seem to get deprecated when the hardware is no longer meaningful. The last two deprecation were (a) only 1GB of RAM and (b) 32-bit chips.

Yes but replaceable batteries are a good start and a more pressing issue. A phone with a 4+ year old battery is useless even if you have all the software for it.

Not my experience… I replaced my iPhone 6 because it was slow, not because battery was bad

And since 2018 I have iPhone XR, and the battery is fine still. So is the phone speed. I’m not changing it anytime soon

Back in the feature phone days there were zero updates.

If one was lucky, maybe with developer tools there was a firmware update, and even those happened at most once.

This is apples to oranges.

Feature phones weren't a substitute for personal computers. They weren't as necessary of an accessory as it is today. On the other hand, standards governing how those phones worked weren't changing as fast, so, given good care, you could use your phone for 10+ years.

Updates today are a way to force users into buying a new phone (eg. my banking up decided not to support an older version of Android, phone vendor doesn't produce updates -- I have to buy a new device).

There weren't updates because there weren't banking apps which could've forced you to abandon your perfectly functioning device.

I think Apple would never tolerate that. I can see them lobbying political parties in order to sabotage EU cohesion if that gets proposed.

Like they never would tolerate being forced into USB-C or being forced into allowing other app stores?

Its a good precedent to have. There are solutions to the software issue you mention. They're not perfect but for some hardware, they do work.

If the software problem ever gets solved, you WILL want to be able to replace the batteries won't you? You can and should fight both battles since they serve the same purpose.

The precedent is also good for devices other than phones.

Is this really [0] the most [1] important issue [2] that the EU should be focusing [3] on?

Going by HN traffic, it appears that what the EU is for is to redesign the iPhone to get the details right that techies disagree with Applle on. We live in extreme times with some remarkable challenges - the EU is wasting bandwidth on this triviality. And it isn't a phone manufacturer, it is probably not going to make phones cheaper or, on net, better for consumers.

Please EU, behave rationally and focus on creating a peaceful and prosperous environment. Stop generating headlines about backseat driver phone redesigns.

[0] https://theconversation.com/poland-dreams-of-building-europe...

[1] https://www.iea.org/commentaries/europe-s-energy-crisis-unde...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65235579

[3] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2022/html/ecb.sp220...

The EU is not one guy sitting in the office trying to find time to deal with one issue at a time.

It’s an intercontinental organisation with 30.000 workers, 705 elected seats in the EU Parliament, and the European Council that sits the heads of state of every EU member state.

It better be able to deal with more than one subject at a time.

>> We live in extreme times

I thought fear-driven hyperbole ended with the expiry of covid lockdowns. On to the next end of the world story.

What a bunch of nonsense and whataboutism.

Mobile phones are very important for European citizens: there's so much stuff that depends on them... companies require their employees to use them for 2FA, governments use them for logging into various government services, it's the preferred method of interfacing with banks, supermarkets, post office... my son's school has a phone app, which is the only way they communicate school schedule, or stuff like teacher's absence, going on field trips etc.

Apple is just another empire of evil that needs to be regulated in order not to treat its customers like slaves. It's absolutely not a waste of time to make them play nice or gtfo.

Reducing e-waste is an important part of addressing climate change, which is the most important issue, so: Yes.

>Please EU, behave rationally

that'd take actual work from the EU.

Agreed, its not merely the battery. But wireless headsets don't have user replaceable batteries anymore, while the device itself still works. No matter the software, the dying battery killed the product.

So I see it as a starting point, and we need further targeted iterations, including the one you pointed out (thank you!)

Aha..just the matter of forcing obsolescence in order to raise profits in modern economy. Please excercise only on yourself, not on me. Another thing, it may be useless from your point of view. But most of the people are using phone just for calling - strange isn't it :) ?

My wife is possibly about to be forced to throw away a $8k pair of hearing aids because after 6 years they are no longer supported by the manufacturer's software for hearing care professionals so it's likely she won't be able to get them readjusted.

It's one chunk of the whole smartphone problem.

Software can come after (or during).

Let's amplify postmarketos a bit ..

> Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device?

I agree with what you say, but even phones I had that became unsupported and I couldn't replace the OS in didn't become useless. They still worked.

A user-replaceable battery would be useful for them as well.

I have been thinking this a lot! There so many technology that could be still use. Ipad 1 , old phones, i have been salvaging laptops with linux, and apart from video or heavy specs things they work better than new laptops with the microsoft OS.

A million times yes. My phone practically became useless overnight since banking apps refuse to open on my Android version. No option to update to a newer version, no option to access important accounts without some phone app.

That's a very worthwhile point but one about a different issue. Consider also the possibility that if my device has been bricked but the battery is still doing OK, I might wish to use it in a different device.

If I could control the software and swap out the parts, I would probably still be using my iphone 4, the first device I felt got depreciated out of existence long before it stopped being useful.

I think we should not really extrapolate from earlier smartphone designs, we have seen incredible improvements yearly in the early phase.

It has considerably slowed down in the last 3-5 years, so it makes sense to only mandate longer lifespans nowadays.

No it’s both.

The EU is ensuring the cell phone companies start by fixing at least one issue. They can then move on to the other.

>>> Please, EU

you know... you could also try asking the US government to do it...

Yeah, and ask God too while we're at it.

Are both note true?

We should have both. Replace battery, components, and software access.

It's not an either-or. We need both.

Feels like, as per usual, people haven’t read the source text.[1]

In order to ensure that portable batteries that were incorporated into appliances are subject to separate collection, treatment and high quality recycling once those appliances become waste, provisions to ensure the removability and replaceability of batteries in such appliances are necessary. Consumer safety should be ensured, in line with Union law and in particular Union safety standards, during the removal of portable batteries from or the replacement of portable batteries in an appliance. A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it. Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions.

Nothing stopping manufacturers from using normal fasteners and gaskets to comply while retaining water resistance etc.

[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...

Exactly, the subheading 'Sleek slabs could soon be a thing of the past' is bogus.

This is not a requirement to have 'cartridge' user-replaceable batteries, just that you should be able to open the phone and remove the battery (not much emphasis on actually replacing it) with easily available tools, rather than heatguns, solvents, proprietary glass-pullers etc.

Are heatguns and solvents not "commercially available tools"?

Pretty sure heatguns would qualify as "thermal energy", and solvents would be...well solvents.

> ... or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it.

See the “and” in the original text (emphasis mine)

> with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools […], or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it.

The only non compliance for my Samsung A40 is the glue: it holds the cover to the body of the phone and the battery to the back of the screen. Everything else is a dozen of small screws and cabling. Do without the glue and everybody can replace the battery. Was the old times 5 seconds battery replacement better? Yes.

Pretty sure the iPhone 14 already satisfies this requirement

Only the 14 though IIRC. The 14 Pro is just like the old ones and is one the most complex phones to perform a repair on.

Correct. The 14 regular has the new design, CAD leaks indicate the 15 Pro will get it too.

Two screws and a plunger get you access to both an easily replaceable screen and the battery. Really is an astonishing design.

https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown

> A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it.

Doesn't it still require heat to undo the glue?

No, they have pull-tabs (although they do often snap, requiring heat and/or IPA to loosen the adhesive)

There's also a summary in the press release: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20230609IP...

I love the EU's focus on consumer protections and I'm all for progressive policies on environmental issues, but this and the USB-C issue strike me as misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts.

I'm glad we're getting USB-C on the iPhone, but it wasn't a huge problem and it was probably coming anyway in the next few years. But replaceable batteries? I'm skeptical, and think it could shrink the market and lower the quality for users.

I feel like a much better approach would be to say that phones must work with third party batteries, and manufacturers can't restrict battery replacements to their own repair centres. That increases competition, helps small businesses, and encourages a thriving batter recycling and replacement market, increasing device lifetime. As for USB-C, similar legislation about increasing compatibility and reducing lock-in (neutralising Apple's MFi program for example) could have had similar impact without the downsides of the industry being unable to move forward.

I think the policies are pretty well informed. I do think USB-C was a huge problem, and I don't think it was coming in a few years.

I'm not skeptical of replaceable batteries. I think the policy that forces them to be removable on top of working with 3rd party manufacturers is a good idea.

I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward.

Edit: You can continue to argue in this thread, but the point of this reply was simply to point out that the parent comment was all thinly veiled opinions with no substance.

Parent commenter, and sure it was opinion, but based in good reasoning.

USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was. The rumours are that Apple's USB-C implementation will be locked down in similar ways, accessory manufacturers will still need to pay Apple to create certified accessories, and data transfer speeds are going to be restricted to Lightning speeds. USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff (as much as I advocate for it).

Removable batteries in smartphones just aren't workable. We have too high expectations for battery life, weight, durability, water resistance, and size. It negatively impacts all of these. There hasn't been a mass market smartphone with a replaceable battery in a long time, and if they were that great for customers there would have been. A much better option would be to focus on repairability, it would have almost all the benefits, and effectively none of the downsides.

> USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was

I'm an Android user, but nearly everyone I know has an iPhone. And not even one of them has an iPhone accessory. So how important is this MFi thing, really? From my perspective, the main annoyance is that my partner (who has an iPhone) needs a special charging cable, and can't use the cables I use for my phone and we both use for our laptops.

And I suspect that's mainly what the EU cared about too: charging cables.

> USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff

If you're talking about all their current stuff being Lightning, then that problem will work its way out in a few years. If their current stuff is all micro-USB or USB-A, then... what? How is that even possible these days? Even the cheap rechargeable motorized cat toys I've bought on Amazon use USB-C cables to charge.

And if it is micro-USB or USB-A that their other devices use, so what? They'd just be going from one charging cable that only works with iPhones (Lightning) to another that only works with iPhones (USB-C). And as their other non-USB-C devices wear out or become obsolete, and they replace them with new ones that charge using USB-C cables, this problem will also sort itself over time.

> ... if [removable batteries] were that great for customers there would have been [more mass market smartphones]...

Removable battery phones are more difficult to design.

Why would a company do something that's more difficult, absent a mandate to do so?

Modern smartphones are not the pinnacle of technical possibility -- they're an optimization between feature and price.

A feature could be beloved by customers but add another $1 to smartphone build costs, and still be cut by every remaining manufacturer in the market.

MFI may be THE problem. But we will never know because you can’t even plug in non Apple stuff in the phone because they use a proprietary connector.

Once Apple is required to use USB-C and then uses software to block non-MFI connections then the EU will (a) take them to court for trying to undermine the spirit of the legislation (b) if they lose in court pass a new law requiring them to prevent blocking non MFI connections (although they will probably allow them to display scary warning messages).

> I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward.

These ultra thin foldable phones probably couldn’t exist with removable batteries. The thinness required to make it comfortable to use would be hard and so would the structural integrity with a removable backplate.

It would absolutely restrict durability since it’d make waterproof and dustproofing way more challenging, if possible at all.

Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!).

As long as we are sharing random opinions - my Samsung s2 and s5 were smaller thinner lighter than modern phones, with 3.5mm and replaceable battery and microsd card. And also had gps and wifi and phone. And were ip67 rated.

Modern phones are going for sexy, that's all. They are large in every dimension but Impractically thin even though everybody adds another 3mm - 6mm of case anyway because they're sleek to the point of unusable. I particularly love when we buy a sexy sleek thin phone and then put an otterbox on it :-)

> Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!).

I had a phone with a removable back and wireless charging back in 2012. This isn't rocket science.

Wireless charging is stupid and inefficient. If someone tried to sell you a petrol pump which works by spraying a jet of petrol into your car from 5m away would you get it?

“Your customers won’t even have to plug anything into their car. FuelSafe just safely hoses down the car with fuel! Over 45% efficient!”

I had a Nexus one with wireless charging 10 years ago.

>"I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. "

Compelling the use of USB-C will cause stagnation in connector innovation; there's no point in trying to to create new and more durable/water-proof/wear-resistant/faster connectors. The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations; if we imagine that there'd been similar requirements in the alkaline era, we might never have gotten to Lithium-Ion.

Note that USB-C was invented after the EU mandated Micro USB. Innovation still happens and the regulations get updated.

There's no reason why devices can't have such a newer, better port alongside type-c. Until the new port gains traction the presence of type-c will help with compatibility, and presumably once this hypothetical connector has been proven better than type-c the regulation will simply be updated to mandate that instead.

> The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations

What conceivable stagnation could requiring replaceable batteries cause?

"Connector innovation" is a solved problem. We really only needed symmetric connectors so we didn't have to insert a cable twice each time.

battery life is the driver of phone waste.

i buy used sub-flagship phones two or three cycles behind. they're much cheaper, they do what i need, they're not too slow for modern software.

but the battery is the worst part. i get a day's life at best. a year in i'm camping by outlets all day if i need to use my phone more than incidentally.

all of these phones would be perfectly good on the secondary market if a battery replacement service didn't cost as much as replacing the phone itself.

i used to swap batteries myself. but it's increasingly difficult to do without damaging the screen as you peel it apart, and at that point the phone is totaled.

I paid $99 to get my iPhone XS Max's battery replaced directly by Apple a few weeks back. That phone is almost 5 years old. I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable.

Compared to $25 for a battery replacement that you could do yourself if it was replaceable kinda makes it seem unreasonable.

iFixit sells iPhone XS Max batteries for $35, nearly a third of the cost Apple is charging. $99 may not be a ton in some regions of the world, but it is enough that many are unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 5 year old phone, versus for $35, it's a low enough amount that many might just stick with their phone and replace the battery, leading to less e-waste.

And while $99 may not be a lot in some regions of the world, but it's a significant amount of people's discretionary income in other regions (they may not be buying iPhones but the situation isn't much better for other brands as far as I'm aware.) $99 is also enough to outright buy a new cheap Android phone.

> I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable.

I do.

apple support is an exception. and that's still half the cost of a good used iphone xs. if you'd just bought new old stock, you'd be ahead.

i'm currently running a pixel 4, and a battery swap would cost more than i spent on the phone.

Battery is the only part of the phone that is guaranteed to fail with normal use, and making the battery hard to replace is a huge pain for end users (and in turn, to their wallets and the environment). Just pulling off the back plate and using your fingernail to replace the battery has turned to having to heat the screen, insert a wedge under the glass, but not deeper than X mm, scrub away the glue, without beaking the screen, unscewing a zillion screws, removing the mainboard, just to reach the battery, then unglueing the battery and the nfc antennas, inserting a new battery, which is sometimes impossible to buy from an OEM, assembling all together, reapplying glue, sticking it all together and hoping it won't fall apart in the pocket... or paying >100eur for a battery replacement, which is sometimes more than half the price of a new phone.

> Battery is the only part of the phone that is guaranteed to fail with normal use

I hang onto my phones until the software becomes unusable, either because apps drop support for my OS (and I can't update any more) or I get scared into upgrading for security. I've never had a battery fail or even get to the point where it doesn't last a whole day—the software fails first.

My understanding is that it's different with iOS, because Apple is much better at supporting their old phones than most Android manufacturers.

My experience is that it's neither the battery nor the software that fails: It's the phone modem.

Every single one of my Android phones stopped working as phones 3 to 5 years down the line. Couldn't take calls, the phone never became aware of them. Couldn't call anyone, not even emergency services, the phone never connected despite full bars. It's always the fucking phone modem.

I'm still using an Android, but when this one eventually fails (this one's starting to flake out at not even a year old, bought new...) I might seriously move over to an iPhone simply because every single iPhone I've seen others use has apparently never stopped working as phones. That's even if they fried a couple Lightning cables and whatnot.

I bought a phone, I expect it to phone. God damn.

That’s quite amazing because I have phones from 10 years ago that function fully (only one is an Android - Nexus 5).

I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in such circumstances as when I'm in a foreign country and dependent on my phone (for e.g. safety, to get around) and there's not a iPhone cable or charge point around. It seems like a no brainer, certainly from a consumer benefit perspective. Using batteries as a mechanism for hardware upgrades is ridiculous, instead of the features of the new hardware that should be the compelling, selling point and the way to a value statement that wins hearts and minds.

If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery. Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me, and anyway I almost never have to use it. Being able to drop your phone in the water and pick it up still working is far more valuable to me.

> If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery.

You can have both.

> Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me

There are cases where a power bank isn't a good solution. They big and heavy. Not being able to swap in a fully-charged battery on demand means that I can no longer use my phone for certain things that I used to be able to do.

Seems like it should be possible for the phone (not the battery compartment and battery door, just the rest of the phone) to be waterproof, and for the battery to be waterproof, and the two can contact each other regardless of that contact being in a wet location. After all, we have plenty of electrical wiring methods rated for wet locations, so why not this? Water isn't the very best insulator (especially saltwater and other mineral content, which the contacts would need corrosion resistance for as well) but it should be sufficient at 4VDC.

Galaxy S5 had both and at 8.1mm/0.31in was thinner than phones are now. I don't see why I should have to choose 9 years later

I completely agree, that overall water resistance and IP rating would be more valuable.

What's stopping figuring out how the hardware can achieve both battery replace-ability and water resistance?

Phones already have holes in them, e.g. speakers and charger port, and yet are able to survive a water immersion event.

Waterproof phones with replacable batteries might not be waterproof after the replacement - so why don't you just keep the original battery, and have a waterproof phone? Win-win for everyone.

> I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in circumstances when I'm in a foreign country and dependent on my phone

I don’t deny that this is a valid use case for you, but I’ve absolutely never been in this position.

I carry around a battery phone charger in situations where I’d depend on my phone. If you squint, yes that’s pretty similar, but the big difference is that a USB charger can power my iPhone and my partners android phone without requiring the phones to use standardized batteries internally.

I think batteries should be replacing in a repair sense, but I’m not sure the “pop open the back and swap it on the streets of Tokyo” is a common use case we should legislate against.

Like others said, I would much rather have it be more durable (eg waterproof). Also I’ll add that thinness is a desirable trait (to a point).

Carrying around bulky power banks or worse, chargers to then tie you to sit close to an outlet and wait for the battery to charge, is not entirely ideal when you're on the go, foreign or domestic. It's also less anxiety-inducing to not have to worry about where will I get my next charge and how long will it interrupt my plans for.

I feel like those rarer circumstances can be handled pretty easily with a portable battery bank, and also pull double duty for any other USB devices you might have.

With my 14 Pro Max I charge my phone every 2-3 days, and I'm not letting it get down to <20% when doing this, either. I'm obviously not making heavy use of it over this time, but even on days when I am out and about and using it more, I'm never in danger of it running out of battery.

Personally, at least, I'll take the sleeker design vs. an easily swap-able battery. Thankfully, it sounds like the EU law doesn't actually require it be replaceable in a tool-less manner, so it sounds like the type of design the iPhone 14 (non-max) uses will qualify.

If you held a 2014 Galaxy Note 4 in one hand, and a modern iPhone in the other, I think you'd notice that the sleekness factor is not that different.

For your use case, powerbanks work very well. Because then you dont have to turn the phone of.

My main motivation for only using battery removable phones is privacy, because I know they are really off, when I remove the battery.

But the choice is currently very limited.

What's the difference between carrying an extra replaceable battery with you, vs carrying an external battery you can use to charge the phone?

External power banks charge via USB. Most people don't want to walk around with their phone tethered via 4ft USB cable to a power bank in their backpack.

Weight, bulk, and the time it takes to actually do the charge.

> but this and the USB-C issue strike me as misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts.

You do realise that the EU gave the industry (i.e. the "experts") the task of defining and agreeing on a standard for charging cables? The manufacturers worked on this and agreed on USB-C, all except one US based fruit company.

This is misguided, even though Apple is going to implement USB-C on the iPhone for the EU market, they're still not going to offer it in the US. It's naive to think big companies act in any interest besides their own unless forced.

If it drives an uptick in sales in the EU you can count on it being eventually implemented for customers in the US and elsewhere too. Though it's even possible Apple knows it will help sell the devices better - at least initially, but they prefer to have users more firmly locked into the Apple ecosystem.

> they prefer to have users more firmly locked into the Apple ecosystem.

Every time someone says shit like "locked into the Apple ecosystem", god kills a kitten. Lots of people switch back and forth between iOS and Android.

Nobody's going to go for USB-C on their iPhones if they can get Lightning ports. The Lightning port is far superior mechanically (both more durable and easier to clean from debris) and unlike most Android phones, not attached to the mainboard - so it can be replaced if damaged.

> misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts.

Ask yourself what kind of game regulators are really playing?

See how many former banking regulators end up working at large banks, same is true for pharma and without even looking probably many other industries. The regulatory system is in place only partially to safeguard people, it is also in place to enforce barriers of entry and it is in place to act as a nice career pathway for it's participants.

One reason I like not having user-replaceable batteries is it makes the phones smaller, or the batteries bigger. I'd rather have an extra 50% capacity and pay $100 to replace the battery once in my phone's life than not have the capacity and go through two replacement cycles.

USB-C wasn't a problem because that legislation was being talked about for a long time, and everybody "got in line" except Apple

But it was the reason why we moved from the crapfest of earlier 2000's "everybody has a different charger"

> this and the USB-C issue strike me as misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts

Experts? <chuckle> In Brussels - just as in Washington - they listen to lobbyists.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-euro...

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/european-union/article/2023/04/24/...

https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/15/the-power-of-l...

Just broadly, let me just echo my full throated support for regulation in this space. Forget the vast majority of the goofy "innovation" arguments I hear, the fact that 3 family cell phones, 2 laptops, Steam Deck, Nintendo Switch, and Oculus can all use the same charger makes insanely more sense that what we were doing before.

Single charger is lovely: nowadays whenever I travel I carry a single charger; it charges: my laptop, my work laptop, my phone, my noise cancelling headphones, my wireless iems, my book, my watch.

You can get cables and small dongles that convert USB-C or micro to lightning etc.

You're talking about a few-dollar problem.

I don't want a fragile USB-C port on my phone. The lightning port is a joy to use - reliable both in terms of the retention mechanism and connectivity, and easy to clean of debris.

I can't think of a better example of "a few dollar problem" that adds up remarkably over time, though.

The Nintendo Switch charger isn't standards compliant, and if you use another charger, it might not be able to keep up with the power draw of the Nintendo Switch.

It will be. Supporting USB PD over USB-C is mandatory if they want to keep selling in EU. Nintendo is more than welcome to subvert EU's requirements and find out how that goes.

Probably it will work for the "Switch 2", if there will be such a product.

So you're really happy that there is regulation requiring what the market already did on its own?

Except the marked did not do that on its own.

The EU gave the industry an ultimatum in 2009: Adopt a common charger voluntarily or we'll regulate to force you to do so. Almost all manufacturers did, first with micro-USB before moving over to USB-C.

Eventually, because Apple decided not to play well with others, they had to follow through and regulate.

lol. do you remember times before microusb? which was also somewhat forced by the EU? so no.. the unification on the USB wasn't all pure force of market...

Yes, because some actors don't want to follow suit.

In some ways (convenience). I think it will also lead to not supplying the device with a charging / data transfer cable to reduce e-waste.

Lighting connector is actually better than USB-C for a phone charger, there is no little contact to snap off inside a lighting port and it’s easy to clean pocket lint out of the lighting port with a tooth pick.

This isn’t the case with USB-C, it’s more fragile and harder to remove debris with damaging it which is why I think apple use it for iPad but not iPhone.

The battery thing is good though, I have seen way too many people using devices with swollen batteries because they are way beyond their useful lifetime.

I don’t know this for sure but I would hope the software on the phone can prevent this on modern devices.

Are you thinking of a magsafe connector? A lightning connector definitely does have a little end that can snap off, and that in my experience (with children) is less robust than a USB-C.

No I’m talking about the port in the phone where you plug the cable in.

With lightening the cable side is the fragile part, with usb-c the male part of the connection is inside the phone’s socket. This is the fragile part of the usb-c connection.

It makes more sense for the fragile part to be on the cable rather than the phone itself because the phone is more expensive and would need a repair but the cable is cheap enough that you can replace it.

Other than this though, usb-c is far superior to lightening with better data speed and power delivery.

Ahh I see. Makes sense. For what it's worth I think the USB-C port is still fairly robust because the fragile part is protected by the port, but I get what you're saying.

Is this rule enacted now or was this just a vote?

That's the important detail for whether this counts as SNI or not (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...).

No, the rule can not be enacted since it has not been fully adopted - the final (multilingual) text has to be added to the European Council Rules via the plenary voting procedure. This rule will come into effect following that vote.

Thanks - I appreciate the help. Do you know if the final vote is just a formality or if there is a real chance it won't pass?

Most proposed bills / votes don't end up resulting in much so we tend to downweight those threads on HN and wait for the thing to actually happen (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).

It's the least I can do to help dang!

Mostly a formality IMO. Here's where it can get fairly political even though it's nearly a final (published) rule ... this vote was fairly heavily in-favor, only 20 against IIRC and even fewer abstentions. Some last-minute horse trading can definitely occur and bind it up. My personal opinion is that I think that's almost certain to pass at this point (given the nature of manufacturing in the EU versus say borders or food products) and I definitely would be sourcing screw and battery connector suppliers now if I designed phones.

Progress (in English) can be tracked here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...

The downside of this is that discussions are more likely to end up as purely reactive toward change that has already occurred, and disgruntlement among the losers over what feels like a fait accompli can poison discourse. Discussion of legislative issues prior to passage leaves open the possibility of organizing/lobbying for or against a given proposal, should an informed consensus emerge among those discussing the issue.

That's true. It's not a great trade-off. The problem is the tons of low-quality "bill proposal" articles that attract attention even though they tend never to amount to anything.

Notwithstanding occasional repetition, I think you should let voting and depth of discussion determine whether a report is significant or not. Even when factual or procedural changes are small, a well-written report might provide worthwhile new analysis or perspective on legislative prospects.

To be sure, some time and attention is wasted on repetitive discussions that restate the same issues with breaking any new conversational ground. But complex problems often require multiple attempts at a solution.

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On the one hand, maybe a reduction in e-waste. Then again - do you trust your average person to recycle batteries responsibly? At least the phones have some residual trade-in value so people are incentivized to turn them in somewhere.

However, the other challenge is people like buying sketchy cheap batteries off the internet, as we have seen from the recent spree of e-bike fires in NYC apartments so...

> However, the other challenge is people like buying sketchy cheap batteries off the internet, as we have seen from the recent spree of e-bike fires in NYC apartments so...

Sounds like something that should be regulated next.

People replacing their own batteries provides an extra incentive to do so.

The tradeoff for sealed batteries was significantly improved ingress protection, larger charge capacity, and lighter weight.

The market spoke and nobody seems to really care that much about user replaceable batteries except a vocal minority.

That and the fact that with phone trade-in programs from manufacturers, batteries are much less likely to be disposed of inappropriately.

CAT has sold phones with replaceable batteries and good ingress protection.

They aren't particularly light or sleek though.

I wonder what is the definition of easily removable and replaceable. Does popping a few screws and using a specialized tool qualifies as easy? What about re-sealing the device after to keep the waterproof rating?

> In order to ensure that portable batteries that were incorporated into appliances are subject to separate collection, treatment and high quality recycling once those appliances become waste, provisions to ensure the removability and replaceability of batteries in such appliances are necessary. Consumer safety should be ensured, in line with Union law and in particular Union safety standards, during the removal of portable batteries from or the replacement of portable batteries in an appliance. A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it. Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...

The samsung galaxy s5[0] had a easily replaceable battery while keeping its waterproof rating

---

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S5

"By the end of 2014, it was reported that sales of the S5 were 40% down on the previous S4 model, prompting management changes at Samsung".

This was the last user replaceable battery mainline Galaxy phone. This was also the same generation of the iPhone 6, which was dramatically thinner than the S5 and it's replaceable battery. The market spoke.

Yeah but the market isn't a goal in and of itself. When the market says to do the thing that'll lead to us burning our limited resources faster in a time of ecological crisis, then it might make sense to nudge it into a more sustainable direction.

Make new regulation to require non-proprietary screws

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36362032

There's nothing to reseal, it's just a simple rubber gasket. Waterproofing is not some rocket science complicated thing that requires magic.

Usually when they write these laws they say something like "replaceable using commonly available and inexpensive tools".

My Xperia Z something had a gasket over the charging port and like all gaskets, it failed. Lost a beautiful phone over a "simple gasket".

I think you know the answer.

Is waterproof even a real needed feature?

Like, I've been owning mobile phones for 22 years at this point and it's literally something I've never cared or benefitted from.

On the other hand, having replaceable batteries is definitely something that's been useful in the past.

> literally something I've never cared or benefitted from

I'm happy for you, for never having lost a phone due to an accidental encounter with water. I haven't lost one recently, but:

- I fumbled an old flip phone while having a night out on the town and dropped it into the toilet.

- I replaced it with a really cute small Kyocera candy bar phone, that my girlfriend at the time didn't notice was still in my pants pocket when she washed my pants (I'm not sure if waterproofing would have saved this...)

- I recently dropped an iPhone 12 into a bathtub full of water and suffered 0 ill effects from it.

If I had to choose between replaceable batteries and waterproofing, I'm not sure which I'd personally choose. I've changed internal batteries in a few phones over the years... it was a bit of a hassle, but kept a $1000 device alive for another year or two. The water-killed phones... there was no bringing them back to life.

I'm not sure about the iPhone, but my AirPod Pros went through a wash / dry cycle on more than one occasion with no apparent loss in functionality.

Huh, really?

I use my cell phone in the rain, I use my cell phone in the shower. I drop it in the mud and rinse it off in the sink.

Waterproof is a top-tier feature, right up there with "not exploding the screen into a thousand shards when I drop it".

Well, when I shower I shower, I'm not distracted by a phone, and few drops of water under the rain have never done anything to any of my phones.

Might be a top-tier feature for you, but it never made any difference to me.

I'm around pools and spas a good bit and like having my phone near me to do stuff like control music and be able to respond to events without needing to get out of the water. Pools have killed quite a few of my devices in the past. Just the other day I tripped while working around the pool and fell in (quite dangerous, for sure) and I had my phone in my pocket. If it wasn't waterproof, I'd be out a few hundred bucks from that accident.

I also like to go hiking and camping a good bit. I've lost a few electronic devices from getting caught in a storm. Its nice having the peace of mind that it doesn't matter if I get completely soaked with my phone in my pocket.

Finally, I have kids, and they're of the stage where its fun to throw things in toilets and in sinks.

It probably has measurable impacts at manufacturers’ scale in repairs. Even if you didn’t consciously shower with a phone, it could rain which to a phone is same as owner taking it to a shower.

Some people live a life of random wetness, mud, and dropping things. Other people honestly do not. There should be products for both groups.

I use my phone in the pool all the time during the summer, ever since they became water proof. Or take pictures in the lake, etc.

As well, once a day I run my phone under the faucet while I wash my hands and give it a clean. I absolutely want my phone waterproof and happily will trade a user replaceable battery for a waterproof phone.

I think it's pretty necessary. I remember I went to a theme park and wanted to have a good time and got drenched. My new phone was ruined. Just the other day, a friend that tried to throw me into a pool got pulled in with me. He had his phone on him. Though the last one is a bad example, sometimes you want to do something spur of the moment and not worry about ruining your phone.

Is it useful to protect an $800 device from being ruined by accidentally dunking it in a pool, lake, toilet?

Yes.

I never buy over $300 phones, and anyway it never happened to me in 22+ years to ever drop a phone in a pool/lake/toilet.

I'm not discussing it being useful, I merely said that it doesn't feel _really_ needed by me.

If I had to choose between interchangeable batteries and waterproof I would choose the first one hands down.

You said:

> Is waterproof even a real needed feature?

That comes across as though you're trying to dismiss it as unimportant; it doesn't come across as though you're actually asking the question and willing to listen to the answer. And then, responding to people who answer you with further dismissals of their reasons continues to seem like you're trying to dismiss it as unimportant because you don't use it.

In response to someone saying they don't want to lose an $800 phone to water damage, what value does it add to say "I never buy over $300 phones, and anyway it never happened to me"? Other people do buy expensive phones, and also, whether expensive or cheap, other people do want to not lose them to water damage, and for that matter, other people do want to use them in environments where they're likely to get wet (e.g. pools/showers/baths).

It comes across as though you're trying to say "but you're wrong to want that", which results in the response you are getting.

Apple doesn’t sell many $300 new phones, so it is a useful feature for the phones they do sell.

I’m probably just clumsy, but I’ve dropped my phone into bodies of water twice in 10 years. I also know of 2 people that have dropped their phones in toilets.

The Venm diagram of expensive phones and clumsy people is large enough to make this a useful feature for some.

I wouldn’t mind if the regulation was that a phone company must offer at least one model with detachable battery, but I’d be sad if the amazing advances in waterproof phones were compromised.

Yes it is. I had a phone accidentally fall in water 3-4 times, was pretty happy waterproof phones are a thing.

>"Is waterproof even a real needed feature?"

Depends on one's lifestyle that can include hiking / cycling under heavy rain for example.

Yes, it is a needed feature in humid environments.

Also anywhere that drops below freezing in the winter. Coming indoors with an ice cold phone is going to cause tons of condensation. If the phone isn't sealed (or placed inside a sealed case) then water will get inside.

Wait, are you saying that till few years ago non-waterproof phones broke more or something? Because that never happened.

Phones cameras frequently were rendered useless before this, when humidity would seep in and condensation would form in the lense.

That is not the same.

Next step should be mandatory software updates. For something like 7 years from initial sale. Which would allow 2 years of normal sale cycle and then at end 5 year of support.

Not like that. There's a much simpler solution. Make it mandatory to have written on box just like any other tech spec, the minimum date until when security updates will be provided, the cadence of updates and their nature (e.g. for Android could be upstream updates).

There is already legislative warranty framework around compliance to promised specs. This means if the date is not honored, customers can turn against stores and return the products. Stores can then return against distributors/manufacturers, etc.

Also forbid sales of any network connected devices (phones, tablets, TVs, routers, etc) past that date because it's a wide security risk, particularly for people who are IT analphabets.

You'll then see how spectacularly quickly everyone lines up to security update schedules and standards. They will also find a way to prolong the date for devices that sell well.

Cool. The manufacturers will figure out a way to make nice phones with a longer lifetime.

Because the EU forces them to.

Engineers have become experts in selecting components so that they fail right after the warranty period.

Replaceable batteries just means they will make something else weaker instead, preferably something that fries the device once it fails (see https://youtu.be/7cNg_ifibCQ?t=238).

It's too dangerous not to, as nowadays phones (or computers in general) don't really need to be upgraded that often to remain useful. No manufacturer wants a repeat of the 1080Ti.

Wow, Apple engineering a computer to fail destroying all the data after the guarantee and lying to their customers why their computers failed is pretty damning.

Did anything come out of this?

> No manufacturer wants a repeat of the 1080Ti

I think I'm out of the loop. What does this mean?

I wish you were right but I have zero faith that Apple would ever willingly follow through with this. A depleted battery is an opportunity for them to sell people on a new phone who don't realize they can get the battery replaced. It also totally goes against their whole ethos of non-repair. Mandating USB C was easier because Apple already did that with the Macbooks, so it wasn't that big of a leap. Removable batteries, however, they would claim would require some expensive, impossible redesign.

Regretfully I don't see this coming to fruition. Apple will find a way, by hook, crook, or lawsuit, to get out of it.

Alternatively, it'll be another excuse for them to claim to revolutionize computing to cheers by bringing back the old replaceable battery with some more proprietary stuff and carefully hidden statements about the water resistance not working afterwards.

Not so long ago some people claimed apple would rather leave the EU market than implement USB-C or open up the app store.

They complied (or are in the process of complying) with these regulations.

Afaik the proposed battery act allows either swappable batteries or a minimum "lifetime".

The same Apple that is prepping to open up to sideloading right now?

Or they just create one phone for the EU market and don't market the rest?

Which could make for a really interesting experiment - how many people would buy the EU replaceable battery edition of the phone vs. importing/traveling to a non-EU country nearby to buy the other version.

It seems clear that there will be some downside to the replaceable battery version, whether it's size, cost, weight, ergonomics, water resistance, etc. Will the convenience of having replaceable batteries and not importing be worth those downsides? We'll have to see.

That just doesn't happen because you lose economy of scale. The EU actually has a ton of soft power through this, enough for it to be a term in geopolitics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

If they do, and it turns out that people generally prefer the EU model, other regulators might follow.

That seems unlikely, since it would multiply the design costs.

But since I am in the EU I wouldn't mind.

Things that made original cell phones not dumb:

Removable batteries with aftermarket suppliers way less costly than factory originals.

Small enough to fit in the pocket easily, or flip form for versatility.

Each battery lasting over 2 weeks and you could stockpile them for extended off-grid use.

External battery chargers included.

Tactile keypads.

Physical connection for external antenna for better reception, as well as audio interface for hands-free car use, analog headgear etc.

Things that made original smart phones smart:

USB at least plus possibly Bluetooth connection for use as a modem or virtual com or ethernet port as an interface to PC for internet access/faxing, as well as mass storage mode so the phone's file system appears no differently than a regular external drive.

Free downloads of manufacturers' PC software to interface phone to PC, for file management, text/picture/video message composition/viewing, personalized backup/restoration, etc.

Removable Memory Stick (Sony) or SD card.

Prices no higher than $500, which itself was too extravagant to be accepted by many, mostly those requiring it for business.

Superior OS compared to either Android or IOS.

Email & internet access provided by cell carrier without need for special mobile consideration on web sites.

Full manufacturer support independent of cell carrier.

Without these a phone can not be very smart.

When the iPhone appeared with exorbitant pricing and lacking the traditional smart features, plus substituting dumb things like non-removable battery, it was too bad people settled for that.

> it was too bad people settled for that.

Power users / tech steeped people like us will care a lot about the original cell phones’ antennas, tactile keypads. But 90% of the public don’t care. And the 10% who are people like us cannot continue using our niche products with no interoperability with iOS/Android, if we expect to keep up with the rest of the society that has now been accustomed to a sealed slab.

Basically, I disagree with the premise that people “settled” for it - the majority a car when they were accustomed to riding horses.

Good to see your thoughtful and realistic response.

But I will still point to the way the two surviving OS's are not so interoperable with each other, and a sealed slab is mainly not just the embodiment of planned obsolescence, but disposable electronics by intention. Apple really doubled down as an anti-reuse/anti-recycling company along the lines of Microsoft's influence.

The experience from horses to cars is a good amount of accurate hindsight, and it was only the early adopters who got cars for quite some time. I would say some equivalence is like with the older technology horse the rider could go places the car never will be able to, but the car did get people where most wanted to go and that's where the roads were because people were already going there.

What really did it was getting there faster and the stimulating feeling of speed like never before.

With the iPhone it was bigger more flexible screen real estate and the stimulating ability to "watch TV" anytime on a device you were going to carry all the time anyway.

Once the mainstream saw what the early adopters were doing there was nothing but envy until they were doing it themselves.

Maybe one thing to agree about settling for is the initial neglect for the environmental effect of both transitions.

Societies get to choose how they will live, and technology has a huge impact on how we live, so the EU is within it's rights to make these laws.

If Apple doesn't like it, they can piss off back to California and give up 250 million iPhone users to Android.

I wish there were better approaches to solving the problems around replacing batteries. This solution has downsides in terms of size (extra material required to surround the battery) and waterproofness.

I like the features that will have to trade off against replaceable batteries. I wish there were more opportunities for creative solutions to ewaste rather than the specific outcome being regulated.

I blame Apple for everyone's obsession with size. Or really, thinness, as everyone seems to have pop tart phones as thin and fragile as glass--with such a large phone, what value does thinness really add? I'd rather have a less delicate, easily serviceable, thicker phone.

Have you purchased a fair phone? They exist promising that exact product and yet I've never come across a single person that actually purchased what they claim to want.

Personally, I love the thin phones. I'd pay extra for it. It feels better and is easier carried. And the large screen makes it easily readable for my poor eyes.

Have we forgotten about the Motorola RAZR? Thinness obsession was a thing long before Apple entered the game.

They already sell Android phones like this. They're cheaper than iPhones and have more features, like FLIR cameras. Why not just buy this instead of forcing your preferences, which, clearly the majority of people don't agree with, or they'd buy these phones. https://www.catphones.com/en-us/cat-s62-pro-smartphone/

Not to mention a thicker phone could have a bigger battery in the first place.

Then your blame would be ill placed. If anything, Apple is to blame for fragile phones. They're the ones that introduced glass rear covers with the 6 I believe. But in terms of thinness, the thinnest phone I recall was the Galaxy S3.

The Samsung Galaxy XCover6 Pro has an IP68 rating (same as Galaxy S23 and iPhone 14) and has a replaceable back (and Samsung sells official OEM batteries for less than $50.) It also has a headphone jack, and is only 1mm thicker than the S23 Ultra.

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/mobile/phones/galaxy-xco...

Unfortunately, replacement parts are hard to come by for the Galaxy XCover6 Pro (Samsung doesn't sell them, iFixit doesn't sell them, and I can't even find certain parts from random sellers online), so it's arguably less repairable than other mainstream phones. An iPhone's battery is significantly more difficult to replace than that of the XCover6 Pro's, but if the screen, camera, speaker, port, buttons, etc. break on an iPhone, it's at least possible to replace them, unlike the XCover 6 Pro, so it's not the device for me and hard for me to recommend to others, as even if one doesn't do repairs themselves, with a more mainstream phone they can pay someone to repair their phone (either at an Apple Store if an iPhone, or some mobile repair shop for popular Android phones.)

I don't drop my phone often, but I've still had an optical image stabilizer that shook the camera violently, a vibration motor that worked sometimes, and a mute switch that worked sometimes, so replacement parts are very important.

But even still, the Galaxy XCover6 Pro is proof that you can have a waterproof phone with a headphone jack and replaceable battery that isn't very thick. If they sold replacement parts and committed to as many years of OS updates as Apple, I'd strongly consider it for my next phone.

I would make the weight trade in an instant to get replaceable batteries back. I dont see why waterproofness has to be sacrificed to get it though.

Modern phones include glued in gaskets to enable water proofing. This is incompatible with any kind of easy removability.

Cameras have been weatherproof with replaceable batteries for years, it's called gaskets.

>Cameras have been weatherproof

They usually can resist some splashes. Not in any way comparable with modern phones.

Cameras are also much larger, so there are more options for how to optimally weatherproof them, such as thicker gaskets or moving circuitry to better locations.

I can replace my watch battery and it's waterproof

I followed through to the link and I don't think it actually creates a hard requirement for replaceable phone batteries.

There's also a clear exception for rinseable devices, I guess they mean shavers and toothbrushes, but potentially phones could come under it as well.

The exception is for “appliance specifically designed to operate primarily in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion, and that are intended to be washable or rinseable”.

I don’t think that phones can count as being specifically designed to operate primarily in such environments, unless it’s specifically an underwater phone or similar.

The article is blatantly false. The legislation only applies to batteries above 2kWh

Quick glance at the docs suggests that it is two separate points in the legislation?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_instituti...

Can you point to what you mean? My understanding is that the regulation only concerns batteries used for transport, e.g electric scooters. Pretty much all vehicles sold as replacements for GHG-emitting vehicles.

I expect each EU hardware design mandate to be worse than the previous, now that they've got a taste of the power...

How are any of them bad so far?

Having cookies message popup on every website you visit is a good thing?

I still do not agree with that rule. Replacable batteries are at odds with water tightness. I would have bought more phones if mine didn't survive water to a great extent.

I think instead the regulation should focus on making parts available and phones reasonably easy to repair. This will most likely include switching out seals, which are needed for the protection from water.

> Replacable batteries are at odds with water tightness.

Are you sure? I've seen many phones that are both IP* rated and have a replacable battery.

The one I know of was a Samsung which didn't really succeed at water tightness.

I think batteries can technically be submerged in water and discharged safely but it's an engineering challenge. As long as the rest of the phone is waterproof I think we are okay.

It is significantly more complicated than that. Water isn't just dangerous because it short circuits, but because it also attacks the materials.

You do not want water in your phone, seperating the battery compartment also increases thickness and complexity.

Divers don’t change

Unbelievably based. Now demand sd card slot. Phones could last for decades.

Different dates, but the relevant one 2027.. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20230609IP...

Good.

The next step should be to charge the true price of e-waste. People are entitled to their consumerist obsessions - they just need to pay for cleaning-up the pollution their create for the rest of us.

A phone with replaceable/ugradeable parts and software updates would probably last decades. The disposable culture must come to an end before it disposes all of us.

"Many consumers were vocal about the change but over time, most accepted it as the new norm and moved on. "

I guess. The fact is you really don't have a choice anymore, so what are you going to do? I'm not sure that counts as 'acceptance', more like 'resignation'.

What about replaceable flash memory? That’s a consumable too.

The EU is slowly going to make google's [project ara](https://www.leaflabs.com/project-ara) mandatory despite 20 years of consumers demanding thinner, more water resistant phones

I think the big question is how "easily" replaceable are the batteries. I doubt were going back to external, swappable batteries since those add extra bulk. And that isn't needed since batteries are much better and power banks and chargers are everywhere.

What is needed is a way to easily replace the battery when it gets old. Now, need to take it to repair shop or take chances with DIY. It sounds like proposal includes internal batteries, easily removing back cover, and replacing the battery with connector.

I'm about to replace the swollen battery on 5 year old phone. It wasn't worth paying someone to do it. I'm worried cause I broke a previous phone doing the same repair.

> I'm worried cause I broke a previous phone doing the same repair.

Just let them ban glue in phones and they're done.

iPhone 14 (non pro) has done this. Leaks indicate it's coming to the 15 Pro, too. Two screws and a plunger can pop off the screen and back battery assembly. https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown

Let’s just ban everything. Let’s all go back to the trees and live in caves.

Thanks to EU for micro USB, USB-C and hopefully replaceable batteries

It matters little that on many devices battery is always engaged, even if device is plugged into a wall. My Dell's laptop battery died even though I probably used the laptop disconnected from external power source for less than 10 hours over its lifetime (two years).

Interestingly, I had to physically remove the battery to be able to use it again when plugged into a wall, it wouldn't even turn on with a dead battery, even if connected to power source.

Sometimes it's the other way around, you have to have some battery power in excess of what the external supply can provide or the thing won't boot.

Great news! It should stop electronic waste and bad « planned obsolescence » practices from smartphone manufacturers

Pretty sure I read somewhere that small devices like phones and tablets are exempted. Thanks for nothing.

First paragraph in the article: "Among the many changes, the new rules would require batteries in consumer devices like smartphones to be easily removable and replaceable."

They are not exempted, the text of the regulation is very clear. You must be confusing it with something else.

do you have a source for this?

This was my source (in German): https://www.heise.de/news/Akkus-von-Smartphones-und-Tablets-...

The new law seems to exempt some devices by article 11. But I now think the article might just be dated or wrong.

Here's the passage translated by DeepL:

> However, Article 11 explicitly leaves room for more specific rules that ensure a "higher level of environmental and health protection." For smartphones and tablets, the Commission and member states already adopted so-called ecodesign rules in November that give manufacturers a choice: Either they design their smartphones and tablets so that users can replace the battery. Or they install the battery permanently, in which case it must still have at least 83 percent of its capacity after 500 charging cycles and at least 80 percent after 1,000 charging cycles. Smartphones must then also be dustproof and waterproof.

> From the EU Commission's point of view, these special ecodesign rules for smartphones and tablets guarantee a higher level of environmental protection and health protection than the Battery Ordinance. This applies "in particular due to the durability requirements," the Commission informed c't in response to an inquiry. Therefore, the ecodesign rules are applicable, it said. These come into force after a transition period of 21 months and thus earlier than the Battery Ordinance.

From my limited reading, article 11 only applies to devices that are built to be used in wet environments though.

The original proposal: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Quote Article 11:

> 2. The obligations set out in paragraph 1 shall not apply where

> ...

> (b) the functioning of the battery is only possible when the battery is integrated into the structure of the appliance.

A smart lawyer could probably argue that a phone can not properly function when exposed to the elements without being integrated into the structure. But I don't know.

Thank you EU.

On apple devices specifically I've found battery life to be the showstopper. ifruits all the way back to 7 if not longer are still very usable....but that would be a 7 year old battery. Most lithiums start to fade after 2 years.

You can easily have an iPhone battery replaced. The regulation just guarantees that you’ll be able to do it yourself rather than having to use a professional service.

Also a rule to make laptops be completely off when powered off... not just in some 'sleep' state that turns on and overheats while in a bag. I can't imagine how much laptop battery life is wasted away due to this.

I think the way the current non-pro models handle batteries is good. You only need to remove the back, and then you get direct access to the battery

I believe that the average replacement rate of smartphones is less than 3 years.

That's one of the reasons manufacturers have given up on (easily) replaceable batteries. It's simpler and allows for slicker design and anyway, most people will buy a new smartphone before the battery reaches its end of life.

The EU is fighting the wrong fight here. It'd be more useful to improve recyclability and actual recycling than to force more complicated phones where it's not needed.

>"I believe that the average replacement rate of smartphones is less than 3 years."

It is probably the same as with PC. Initially each generation was way more powerful and allowed "better" and more powerful applications. But at some point your generic PC has become powerful enough to run nearly everything the average person wants and there are no more reasons to upgrade. Smartphones may have reached the same point.

Bigger problem is cars with welded ones that are not user serviceable or atleast standardized modules

I remember when we had replaceable batteries, many, with different shape, different spec, different charger. Then someone did invent a universal charger with movable pin. If you want to replace battery on your iPhone, you can actually do it in local repair shops. Powerbank is actually a good product. I don't miss replaceable batteries.

This is stupid. Battery lifetimes has come a long way (1000-2000 cycles are the norm) and will improve in the future. Devices are much denser and are waterproof. There are trade offs and customers have chosen to favor designs that do not require easily replaceable batteries. I wouldn't want to pay the price for having one.

Next up, headphone jacks please!

just in time, my google pixel 6a phone is bloated and cracked open the back cover

At one point, tech companies should wonder if it is worth serving this market. With all these useless regulations, no wonder there’s no innovation in EU anymore.

I hate that the EU can bully American companies into making shit we don’t want.

I don’t want a thick ugly phone. And that’s what you get with a removable battery.

Stop micromanaging everything what the hell

Good at making laws. Not good at making tech.

Do you know which continent invented and the sole seller of the most precise litography machines? How about lenses? How about the best electrical infrastructure products with even IoT?

USB-C, battery: Taiwan, Ukraine:

So how come they aren't making car (EV) batteries replaceable?

Ah yes. Europe still has a car industry whereas there is zero phone or computer industry left.

> So how come they aren't making car (EV) batteries replaceable?

I don't think 500 kg batteries can ever be easily and quickly user-replaceable, no matter what the EU mandates.

You should complain about the laws of physics (or the weakness of humans) rather than make this ridiculous comparison.

GM was prototyping a two part platform concept.

the chassis was drivetrain, and engine in one unit and body/cabin, a separate unit that anchored on.

there was to be few chassis types, and many body types.

There is a manufacturer that has automatic battery replacement station.

You drive up. Battery bank is swapped and in 5 minutes you drive of fully charged.

It is coming. It won't happen overnight.

And yet Nio is doing it already.

How "ridiculous"!

https://www.nio.com/nio-power

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