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Comment by hospitalJail | Hacker News Reader

I always wondered why they wouldn't let inmates create value with their skills. Seemingly manual labor that could be automated by a bunch of Undergrad Engineers that wouldn't even qualify as a capstone project.

I understand if you have offline computers. I understand if the computer needs to be behind a plexiglass wall and the mouse and keyboard need to be chained down. But quickly these will pay for themselves. Data Entry pays significantly more, I imagine there are plenty of white collar criminals with tech skills that could make $30-$100/hr.

Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor.

I can't see too many downsides other than the initial set up cost. Pretty sure the right side of the aisle will see the $$$ and approve. The left side should also see the $, but also know how humane and potentially rehabilitating.

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Oh no, we did a slavery!

EDIT: Allowing prisons to profit from the labor of prisoners creates a perverse incentive for the companies running prisons to keep prisons full. Maybe it works in places where prisons aren't run for profit.

To be fair the US already do a slavery, prison labour is a thing.

To be clear, that's exactly what I mean. Every perverse incentive that nudges for-profit prisons towards manufacturing prisoners is magnified by turning individual prisoners into revenue streams.

Interestingly, in the US, slavery is explicitly permitted by the Constitution as a punishment for crimes. (Though whether prison labor should count as "slavery" or as a different form of "involuntary servitude" is an interesting semantic question.)

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

It's a US constitution problem. Slavery of prisoners is still legal.

There's a film on it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

This is less of a gotcha in the context of locking people in boxes, which we also normally don't do.

Locking people in a box is incarceration. Locking people in a box and compelling them to perform labor from which the incarcerator profits is slavery.

The fact that imprisoning people costs a lot of money is one of the few things keeping the U.S. prison population in check. That's not a problem that needs solving.

The NH state prison lets people do woodwork and furniture restoration. You can buy the furniture at the retail store in Concord.

https://furnituremasters.org/prison-outreach/

https://www.nh.gov/nhdoc/divisions/corrrectional/index.html

That is a nice first step, but this is nothing quite like I vision. People finding their niche and growing skills while making money.

Although, I find the idea interesting that we could solve a supply issue in a field by training our prison population. Too bad the American Medical Association would never allow competition :P

If the prison system keeps ANY of the money you immediately get incentives for abuse and the unimprisoned may not like having their jobs taken by lowball prison laborl

> I always wondered why they wouldn't let inmates create value with their skills.

In Germany prisons are to large parts "self sustaining" thus inmates do the cooking, washing, carpenter work, metalworks, car mechanics works, ... including proper apprenticeships in different fields compliant with Germany's apprenticeship system.

Some prisoners also work on service for external customers, one can even buy products directly from jail: https://jva-shop.de/

However pay is very low, way below minimum wage and different cost the state charges prisoners is directly deduced and while in jail the only place they can spend the money on is the shop inside, for cigarettes, sweets, TV sets (requires special permission), ... while that shop owner charges prices based on his monoply ...

But the general idea of German jail system is that after jail inmates should have a chance to find a job with some education etc.

Often failing for different reasons, though.

> Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor.

The inmate is also getting dignity and practice at regular life, which might convert a % of them to non-criminal life (I forgot the word for it).

There is not much dignity in being forced to work while you are only allowed to keep 20% of what you earn.

After rent and food the average person gets a lot less than 20%.

Yes keep going on that train of thought because we're not disagreeing at all and I'm waiting at the station where it's taking you.

Still doesn't mean taking 80% of the wages of prison laborers is anything but exploitative.

UNCIOR does CAD work for McDonalds remodels and such. You are paid more working UNICOR (sometimes over $100 a month). I did CAD in college but I sure as hell am not using my education to make the Warden/Cops a fat bonus. Lots of guys did it though, especially those with no savings or people. It becomes...interesting when your boss is also your prison guard, and your boss' bonus is tied to performance metrics.

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