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Comment by JohnMakin | Hacker News Reader

This is so well said and on the nose that it hurt to read.

I am entering into my third major project in a row where it’s almost the exact same situation (and same consultant I’ve bumped into)

- site starts to scale, never had an ops team

- realizes oh shit we cant manage this ourselves but who wants to hire some hacker nerd for $150k a year that “gEnErAtEs nO BuSiNesS rEvEnUe” so they hire a consultant or consultancy firm

- firm builds them a solution that will technically “scale” but no one in the organization bothered to learn how it works

- it works for a while til it doesnt and then the “oh shit” moment becomes “oh shit we need a dedicated devops team”

- devops team attempts to work with the shitty consultant solution (editing yaml) and does an okay job until something breaks horribly again or they become a massive bottleneck

- finally they allow someone to come in and clean house and you get an infra platform like the author of this blog is describing

Platform engineering is the right word. “devops” has literally no meaning. I’m only 6 years or so into my career, but I can count on a single hand the amount of devops engineers I’ve worked with that can actually “dev” - and by dev, I mean do stuff like dig into application code and suggest modifications for the infrastructure, or write their own full fledged libraries.

Let’s get rid of devops and hire platform engineers. The problem is it’s a really weird and rare combination of skillsets, in a field no one really wants to do except complete weirdos (I am one). I’ve long said that DevOps isnt a career you choose, it just happens to you.

Well said! thank you so much for this post.

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20 years ago, when I was trying to enter the field, sysadmins were almost all former developers who had a pretty fundamental understanding of operating systems.

Somewhere along the way "sysadmin" became a euphemism for helpdesk, and some folks thought "devops" (as a job title) was new, but it was just the same old sysadmins really, or new devs becoming new sysadmins with the fresher title, they felt themselves the vanguard of a new paradigm, I'm sure.

Now we're in the same situation again, where "devops" (as a job title) can have no development experience. So we need a new term, apparently.

Maybe gatekeeping is useful to stop this job title treadmill.

I think part of the reason this trend has been going on, and I have observed a similar thing as you point out here, is that businesses have tried to get rid of this “role” for a long time now and by constantly reinventing and renaming it. They have failed miserably. When people ask what I do, I call myself a systems engineer or “backend engineer” if that makes more sense to them. it’s more apt for what is actually needed and asked of me.

Things went wrong when we started calling Computerization, "Information Technology".

This was a totally misguided re-branding of the field. It attracted bureaucratic personalities and classist managerial types, and utterly destroyed the field.

Like you, I couch my job description: I'm a "Systems Software Developer, I develop software systems" .. because its true, thats what I do, even if its a majority of the time working on embedded projects.

And if someone then responds with "ooh, so you're in IT", I immediately go to another corner of the party and avoid them like the intolerable bores they are ..

> And if someone then responds with "ooh, so you're in IT", I immediately go to another corner of the party and avoid them like the intolerable bores they are ..

No need to be arrogant towards people outside the field. My grandma doesn't know the difference between the random IT guy that updates your Windows printer driver and a Linux kernel dev, but I'd still not call her an "intolerable bore".

Guess Problem is that a lot of managers also don't know, and have same understanding as your Grandma. I've seen plenty of companies take a very highly paid engineer and have them install printer drivers on peoples PC's.

I was getting paid £200k/yr as a Software Engineer for a company with an unresponsive offshore IT help desk. I would often spend a few hours (!!) a day helping various stakeholders with their desktops/printers/email. This was an insanely ineffective but absolutely necessary use of my time (I was managing a small development team with stakeholder satisfaction kpis), sadly my IT efforts were clearly more appreciated than development.

Hard to convince management that a dedicated onsite IT would be required - especially when they think it is your job already.

I suppose there is a difference between companies that are tech to the core (where everybody in the management chain up to CEO is actually a sw eng) or a company where software engineering / programming is just a dept. somewhere on the side.

Gotta appreciate if you're working in the former. Drawback is you can't BS your way through issues. Everybody above me in the chain (which is like 4 people) could write a quicksort blindly. If anybody tries any BS they don't have their job much longer.

> Guess Problem is that a lot of managers also don't know, and have same understanding as your Grandma.

Well, nobody forces you to work for a company with managers like that. I personally wouldn't.

That is a worthless recommendation.

That's kind of like saying, even slaves have a choice. Death being the option available to all.

There are enough companies out there without such managers.

Drawing a comparison to slavery is quite shocking, tbh.

The term 'wage slave' is commonly used. It is not always a humorous take on the situation. If you live or have skills where you have a lot of options. Then that is good for you, not the default for everyone.

I go a step beyond. When I’m interacting with “non-IT” folks, I say just I’m “in IT”.

It isn’t a problem for my ego to do that, and it’s something that’s both relatable and typically stops the conversation from revealing anymore about my work (not that there’s really anything to hide, I just enjoy my privacy and no, I don’t want to meet your “computer genius” nephew or fix your phone).

If I’m in a clearly technical group, I’ll go into more detail. I don’t identify myself with the DevOps term though, or sysadmin, or developer. I don’t clearly fit into any of the -currently assumed- definitions of those.

I'm very similar.

In social situations, I usually just say "I'm into computers". Most people who ask what I do don't really care, they're just engaging in ritualistic small talk anyway. If someone does care, they'll ask clarifying questions.

Same here.

I always default to "I work in IT". If that person is in the space I might go into specifics; but even then majority can't relate or understand the role i spend my days working in.

It also has the benefit of coming across as more blue collar and I catch less grief, as the disdaine for tech workers continues to grow.

I keep it simple and say that "I fix laptops" since I know that no one wants to hear about infrastructure gluing.

Yeah, that's all well and good until someone asks you to fix their printer .. because "you are an IT guy, you should know .."

"I make the systems IT uses"

That's the right approach.

I disagree. Data center ops have been completely reinvented by the devops practices. Sure it's a bunch of sysadmins at the start, but a bunch of sysadmins really trying hard to take themselves out of the loop so that things can scale.

A good example is how software releases work. Where I worked 15 years ago, releases were something we could afford to do about four times a year, at night, on the weekends, doing the rollout by logging onto machines and starting them back up, babysitting the rollout. Because rollbacks were catastrophic, an insane amount of time went into QA, so the time between a code change and a release could be easily multiple months. Now I'm at a place where releases are done every day of the week. Rollout steps are largely automated. Rollbacks are mostly drama free. Risk is mitigated through automated canarying (and automated testing before that).

And certainly the business has successfully gotten rid of paying people to log in to servers on a Saturday night to perform a release (which frankly not a lot of people are into in the first place, so everyone wins).

I'm not sure, but I haven't seen places where devops team hire people without exp. I myself tried to get some interviews (I do have some dev exp, albeit data engineering ones, not backend) to no avail. To this point I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team.

Forgive the linkedin link:

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/junior-devops-engineer-jobs/?c...

No programming experience required (only some minor scripting in shell languages & a reference to education), in fact this job ad reads identically to a sysadmin job from 2014; in the middle of the "sysadmins can't code" zeitgeist, when all developing sysadmins had moved to become devops engineers or whatever.

Copied from the ad:

----8<---- Your tasks:

* Containerization and orchestration of our products for development, testing and production environments designed for cloud and on-premise solutions

* Produce reference architectures and standardize solutions to streamline efficiencies within the business

* Mitigate against Cybersecurity threats by ensuring systems are safe, secure and compliant to best practice recommendations (e.g. CIS Benchmarks, Vulnerability scans and Penetration tests)

Your profile:

* Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master)

* Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman)

* Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins

* Experience of Infrastructure as Code tools such as Ansible, Terraform, Helm

* Scripting knowledge including bash, PowerShell

* English fluently, German is an advantage;

* Improvement-driven, structured and proactive team player, high sense for quality, open minded

* Working in an agile environment (Scrum, Safe)

---->8----

Yeah, a lot of JD reads like that, but hey why would anyone be proficient in these skills without dev exp? Or they are already a devops anyway.

Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman) Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins

Requiring a Computer Science/Software Engineering degree for a non programming job is a little weird.

The point is coding skills are not required to do the job. Sure it would be nice but if somebody ticks all the other boxes then being good at programming isn't important.

Assuming these are the tools and processes that build and deploy your main product, I don't understand this comment.

Sure, maybe some of the work isn't writing software. But some of it is, and it shouldn't be written by amateurs. Also, they are building these things for people who do write software. It would be hard to produce something that works for them without understanding what they do.

As somebody who does a job like this almost none of it involves writing software. 90% of what you write will be terraform and ansible. The remaining will be 20-50 line bash/python scripts.

Reading code, understanding building and deployment are all useful and required to some extent (especially the latter). But specific programming skills are not required any more than that would be for say a technical writer or network engineer.

I believe you, but I think this experience/job varies pretty wildly. That is, there are organizations where your job does involve writing software that's more than short scripts. If a company chooses "best of breed" for their pipelines, for example, there's quite a lot of integration between SCM, build tools, security tools, deployment tools, and so on. Doing that in a way that serves the end users well isn't always trivial.

Those education requirements almost always go out the window or can be ticked by passing Cisco certifications or something else vocational. (speaking from experience)

What I'm trying to drive home here is that you do need programming experience to be a good sysadmin/devops/platform; back when devops as a job title was becoming "a thing"(tm) I was told over and over again that sysadmins couldn't code and thus we need devops.

Now it seems devops don't need to be able to code (which you seem to think as well). So we will come up with a new term to cover programmers who understand systems.

You kidding? A German university CS M.Sc. degree is very different from a Cisco certification.

I guarantee I can get that job with no degree.

Those "degree" sections are universally optional, they're always listed by I have never seen them honoured.

I'd put $20,000 down on the wager that I could get that job with only a Cisco certification (or even nothing at all).

You probably can.

But the criticism was that the job ad was not requiring knowledge of how to write code, and I was pointing out that the degree requirement (strict or not) indicates that that's not true.

If you don't have the required degree but can demonstrate equivalent skills, then that's fine. Kudos to the company about being flexible on the formalities side.

I think you misunderstand.

There is a line that is universally ignored in job ads. This is that line.

if I showed no ability to write a for loop or a linkedlist. I could still get that job.

I see it time and time again, it's like we must add that line to job descriptions, but it's never checked, never verified and ultimately it serves no purpose. There will be no difference between someone with a BSc in CompSci, an MSc in CompSci or no degree at all.

The thing that will get you that job, likely, is discussing how http works, how tcp works and perhaps something to do with exit codes.

My experience with sw eng job interviews is very different and I've been interrogated quite intensely about data structures, design patterns, computer architecture internals, and have done the same on the other side of the table many times. It brings a good perspective on whether the candidate knows their way around the box and has a deep understand of what happens inside it. And I also appreciate if my colleagues know how an L2 cache works, what an RB tree is and what's good and bad about microservices. Whether that's been acquired through a university degree or through self-learning or experience on the job, I don't care though.

Might not be true for this particular posting.

If I'm interviewing person A and person B, all things being equal, I'll go for the one that has a degree on CompSci (or equivalent). That's it. It's not that difficult. Obviously if person A doesn't have a degree but knows much more (based on the tech interview) than person B who has one, I'll go for person A.

Be aware that this is a german job listing.

The only european country that takes titles even more serious is Austria. So without a M.Sc. in CS or a similar M.Sc. your chances may be quite low to even get an interview. Especially since university is basically free here so many people have a B.Sc. or M.Sc. in germany.

Sure, I work for a German company though.

No BSc or MSc here.

I have a computer science degree and barely mention it in my resume because it’s just one of those “checkbox” things that doesn’t actually matter. At my current job I’m not sure anyone even knows that I have one from a decent school. it’s just credentialism. you don’t need a CS degree to be a good systems engineer. It can help you solve weird problems, and IMHO it allows me to think about certain things from a very particular lens a lot better than others, but you absolutely do not need one.

> The point is coding skills are not required to do the job.

I’m sure this is the case in some places. This can’t be farther from the truth in many others. At every organization I’ve been a part of, the best “DevOps” on the team was usually the person who was the best at coding, or at least understood it the best - and coding is one of those things that you can’t really understand well if you don’t do a lot of it.

Any by the same token the best developers have a good understanding of Ops. Often these will be the Senior ones and in some cases they built the platform before Ops people were hired.

But plenty of developers only have a vague picture of what production looks like especially in a complex environment. However they are perfectly able to do their job okay and produce working code.

In my experience they also don't want to have the computer make a api call and wake them up at 3am.. but are happy to let the DevOps guys take that sword.

Being great at DevOps means lots of Production experience. The level of experience required to go from thinking about working software (code) to running software (Production) is immense. That's why it is so hard to level up DevOps talent in the current dichotomy. In a silo DevOps engineers won't run enough software to understand their customers (the engineers in your org).

> Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master)

That typically entails programming experience, especially in Germany.

I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team.

Most companies do. Perhaps not top Silicon Valley tech companies with cutting edge needs and paying over $150k, but overall I've found that dev ops teams have plenty of jobs for 'green' team members. You just have to accept a 'green' salary and 'green' job responsibilities.

"To this point I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team."

Yes. Devops people come from a SWE background generally + they understand infra. They usually have 10+ years experience. Most specialties work this way in software: security, devops, AI, ML, ... etc. You need to be a SWE first, then specialize.

This is not what I've seen at many places I've worked it. Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two.

Also I work in AI/ML and hardly anybody has 10+ years of SWE experience before specialising. Most people start fresh out of a PhD or postdoc program or come from some sort of math or physics background.

In my experience, it used to be 60% former sysadmins that didn't know how to code or approach problems from a software engineering perspective, and 40% SWE who liked doing platform stuff.

Now it's actually 80:20 due to software engineers becoming frustrated and disillusioned with the current state of things. Not only due to specialization and the push towards tool standardization (you don't get to build many custom components because we k8s all the things so most of the time you're just writing yaml/hcl), but because working with regular sysadmins gets extremely frustrating.

"Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two."

This could be the entire problem. These are specialized fields. They are being treated like they are not.

From what I've seen recently is the inverse of that. There are scores of developers who have little understanding of OS scaffolding or networking, but are good at writing merge sorts in Python. Most Devops people I know are not the ones pushing "vanguard of a new paradigm" BS, they are just ops who can code and understand performance tradeoffs, networking, subsystems, etc. I guess we can blame Devops for one thing, the paradigm has encouraged the behavior of "real devs" (TM) not understanding anything about the underlying platforms they are writing code for. That was the point, but it's not all gravy.

> That was the point, but it's not all gravy.

[Weeps] That wasn’t the point, the point was exactly the opposite of that, to get developers and ops working as a single team, building an understanding of each other’s domain in order to make things better. Sadly the point was lost long ago, and devops engineers and devops teams have taken the place sysadmins and ops teams in providing a nice little silo you can chuck your terrible code over the wall at and not have to think about how it works.

Yep, you can think of it as overlapping circles in a Venn diagram, or if you prefer T-shaped people, imagine an entire 4-row block in Tetris. How do you fill out expertise in the entire domain but also have broad knowledge of it across the team. The business side hates it because people with expertise aren't interchangeable widgets they can throw at any problem.

This.

But you know what? There are tons of developers who are _perfectly fine with this_! There are tons of developers who just want to write business code in their CRUD webapp and call it a day, the more abstractions you can give them, the happier they are. And while I don't like it, I don't blame them.

assuming the code is reasonable and can scale they should be allowed to and enabled to do this. as a dev I dont want to think too hard about the infrastructure underneath it, I just want it to run.

the ole “runs on local therefore it’s good to go” should be good enough.

You can ignore some of the details, but you can't ignore everything.

Which database you choose and how you scale it will affect your application code.

You can't write code that makes use of the local file system (or in-memory data for anything meant to be persistent) if you have more than one container serving your app. (And yes, some people need to be explicitly taught not to do that.)

And so on.

Absolutely agreed, and if they have to think particularly hard about things outside their application space for a CRUD web app then either you’re in an extraordinarily high throughput environment, or the platform engineering needs a bit more work to abstract things away. That’s the ideal outcome here, developers can develop, and when they’re done they hit the Deploy button and off it goes.

Where this falls down is when development teams are building complex systems and then expecting the ops team to divine how that’s meant to work in production.

Do you dislike it when application developers don't think about the way CPUs work at the silicon level? Or the way TCP/IP works under the hood (handling packet ordering/ connection negotiation etc.)? It's not immediately obvious to me that an application developer should have to worry too much about how their software is delivered/hosted etc., though I'd certainly agree that understanding it better generally makes you a better developer. And that the reality of modern O/S's and hosting platforms still means that implementation details inevitably leak their way into application space, unfortunately.

I now saw it several times of when they needed a DevOps team, what they meant is what I think is different from the typical sysadmin. For doing the change itself on the Salesforce platform is easy, but in the end everything has to be merged, deployed, etc. The new DevOps teams are doing that stuff. They're not concerned with the dev part of the change, but all of the deployment/release tasks around it. This is actually novel for a lot of organizations, because their pipeline was so much simpler, e.g., a three system architecture, where every project deployed to one test system.

I work as a SRE and have done a lot of platform engineering in my life. I call the sysadmins you're talking about "operations". This role proliferated because system administrators/engineers that were coding were paid the same as a SWE while ops people came at a discount. Every contracting and consulting firm ever had an "ops as a service" contract that they'd offer large businesses. This was the norm for a little over a decade I think. Things have changed now and it's harder to exist in the SRE space if you don't code, but finding people who know systems, infrastructure, and application code to a high degree is pretty difficult and, again, comes at a premium. This is the result of more companies reaching scale that cannot survive on blueprint infrastructure and lifecycle designs, and things like tooling mattering so much to DevXP. Companies see the value in people who work on this kind of stuff now.

A lack of gatekeeping I don't think was ever the issue; the incentives were just perverse.

And this isn’t a novel problem.

I spent time working around the space industry. Almost a decade of my life.

The big contractors in aerospace have a _really_ difficult time finding people who know enough about the hardware and the software to be competent engineers. They’re basically unicorns.

Not that they don’t exist, but if you’re looking for someone who is demonstrably good and has a validated educational background in both, you don’t have a huge pool of talent to go with.

So they hire them when they find them, but they also just tend to hire experts in each field and let them collaborate. They didn’t try to reinvent the wheel with some new “paradigm shift”.

Having done this job once upon a time, I think the downtrend in title is inevitable.

What tends to happen is that at some point in time, an organization finds itself in a bad place. Where pagers fire regularly, and the skills you need to manage the noise are "fast context switching", "good communication", "debugging", "ability to work insane hours". Very little of this involves coding, or building software. Teams may start by assigning some engineers into this role as an elite team, but if you come back in a couple years you'll find that the elite team has burned out or forgotten how to write software and due to the impossibility of hiring new elite team members - has resorted to hiring people to carry a pager.

There are a few companies which invest in big platform orgs, but due to the lack of revenue generation - it seems that this can only be sustained with very strong leadership buy-in.

“Having done this job once upon a time, I think the downtrend in title is inevitable”

I absolutely agree with this. It seems like a it inevitable for anything that a business needs to do but doesn’t really want to do. Another place where you see it is with project management, where there have been many different titles for the same role.[0]

https://chiefofstuff.substack.com/p/the-job-status-cycle

> it seems that this can only be sustained with very strong leadership buy-in.

Definitely. often it's more about organizational changes than software and upper management is the one blessing things in most big corp.

I do think there are differences. If you read LISA papers there is obviously something fundamentally different about what we did when we were practicing system administration than what we were doing when we did devops.

One of the fundamental shifts in my opinion was building APIs on top of sysadmin tasks. Provisioning a VM, installing an OS, getting software onto the server, configuring ingress/egress, handling process restarts, etc.

These all were turned into tasks you could run from a developer’s laptop.

But it was still a different skillset and devops dumped that skillset on developers (“Hey! Now, instead of opening a ticket, just write a 1000 line magical incantation of poorly understood YAML and the system can do it for you!”).

Platform Engineering grew out of that pain. It’s the layer we are building on top of devops in a way. We are taking those APIs and treating them as foundations to build products that manage the SDLC lifecycle for developers.

I think at its core, deveops was about “how much sysadmin work can we turn into an API and give to developers?” The answer turned out to be almost all of it. Then Platform Engineering is “now that we have APIs, how much can we automate away for developers.” We don’t know the answer yet, but suspect we will find the answer is also “almost all of it.”

Site Reliability Engineering seems to be following a similar story arc and converging on Platform Engineering.

The problem with handing over infra provisioning and maintenance to developers is they don't have the expertise or the time. Unless your platform is REALLY solid, and onboarding is easy and has enough guardrails, you end up with a dozen different little platforms that are like Galapagos island birds.

At my current company theres literally no coherence. Some people deploy on EKS, or ECS, or Anthos, or regular linux hosts. We use every database on earth. Things on Azure GCS and AWS. Databricks and Snowflake. The list goes on!

As a former systems engineer who was still in that role when DevOps became a thing, I think there's a a more fundamental difference.

The team I was on was made up of ops/engineering[1] people who knew how to code. We built tools to fill gaps or let us do things we couldn't do otherwise, but would typically use out-of-the-box functionality in third-party products by default because it was cheaper in the long term than building and supporting custom code. Maybe there's a better term for this, but I think of it as "OpsDev", and AFAIK it's more or less extinct.

DevOps has always struck me as being developers[2] getting fed up with having to deal with a separate ops team, and building tools and platforms to automate away that ops team entirely.

The two things can look superficially similar, because they achieve similar goals (automate away repetitive work, let people do more work), but the approaches are almost totally different. Kubernetes and Terraform do amazing things, but they are very obviously tools written by and for developers. I think it would be difficult and unwise to hand off first-tier support for issues involving them to a help desk, for example. It's pretty safe to write instructions for first-tier support to use a GUI or run a command but substitute the name of a server farm and a software package in the arguments, especially if the command is a script written by the engineering team to verify that the work makes sense before executing it. It's a lot less safe to try to have non-developers hand-edit source code, a script or even a YAML file and push the result to production.

Both approaches work. They just require different kinds of people, and each has their own benefits and drawbacks, and IMO it's a mistake to put them both under one label.

[1] "Engineers as in Geordi LaForge or Montgomery Scott": the people whose primary job is to keep the engine(s) running, respond to emergencies, make improvements where possible, and generally be a smart-person-of-all-trades.

[2] "Engineers as in Burt Rutan": the people whose primary job is to design and build new products (for lack of a better word) from the ground up.

In some cases, Dev Ops became the person who knew what was going in the disaster of unknowable services that is AWS…

For a brief moment about 15-20 years ago developers were actually doing operations work. The infrastructure was simple. Some monolithic app servers behind a load balancer, memcached, perhaps a master/slave SQL database but mainly big iron… and then someone coined the term DevOps to describe the process of automating the management of these services…

One thing that was very different was provisioning new machines consisted of ssh’ing in and installing the required packages and binaries. The deployment was probably a simple script that used scp.

However, once the term DevOps was coined almost immediately some people began to stop doing development work and just focused on automating operations work and constructing glorious crystalline castles in the clouds to handle traffic that could have been realistically served by 1U in a shelf somewhere. Complexity begets complexity.

Having developers deploy the code to production is a security concern. You need permissions separated to ensure they do not sneak extra code into production after QA does their part. Our SOX audit was adamant about us changing this.

Is this sarcasm? What's stopping whoever does have the permissions from "sneaking code into production?" This seems like something pretty easily addressed by a combination of code signing and time-gated permissions. A small dev team may not have the time or energy to stand those systems up, but a blanket statement that it's a security concern seems like a bit much.

SOC II and other audits tend to come with the same baggage- they want strict roles and separation of duties between operations and engineering.

> What's stopping whoever does have the permissions from "sneaking code into production?"

In our arrangement, the ability to push code to production is gated by the GitHub/Azure integration path. The QA or project person who is rotating the production deployment slots (azure functions) is not granted access in GitHub to deploy to those same functions.

So, the developers pushing code and those deploying code are mutually exclusive groups. You could still defeat this with collaboration between employees or screwing with AAD records, but that's why we have a ton of audit logging turned on too.

Having worked at companies like that - usually utter incompetence of 'release engineers'.

On the flip side, giving more people permissions increases the surface area for a social engineering or disgruntled employee attack. If your solution to sneaking code in is to delegate deployment to another team, now you have two teams that could sneak code in—one has to be sneaky and get around QA (not hard at most places), the other can just put the code in before deployment. Making the organization bigger isn't a great solution for lack of trust, it tends to exacerbate it.

Developer credentials should not be able to deploy to production, only CICD system credentials should.

Absolutely, you need proper controls in the system to control and authorize deployments with appropriate responsibilities in place, but fundamentally if your deployments are fully hands-off, it shouldn't matter who clicks the 'deploy' button

I agree with all that.

DevOps is similar to agile. Originally they both described a set of principles, an ethos, not a specific role. DevOps was your development team work closely with ops as one team, using software engineering practices, config as code etc etc.

Then, it just came another name for sysadmin and later platform teams and back to where it all started, passing things over the wall from engineering to platforms.

> Originally they both described a set of principles, an ethos, not a specific role.

The way I understood DevOps (back from the first DevOps Days in Ghent) is that clear separation of sysadmin and developer roles harms the process of software delivery and that developers should maintain their code up to production, and learn from the process.

It was, in a way, a critique of the project-driven business where teams ship and jump over the board.

The problem is, however, that those two roles require different knowledge, skills, attitudes and mindsets, and so many (most?) developers don't really like sysadminning: you know, messing with VLANs, DNS resolving, packet routing, gluing two networks (one in Sidney, second one in New York) into one via VPN, watching disk quotas and memory limits, working around bugs in Linux scheduler, pinning CPUs, all that mind-bogglingly boring (but needed for smooth operation) stuff.

True.

I enjoy making sure software works for people, the more people the better. If that involves all that sysadminning, I will enjoy that as well.

But most of my peers are oblivious to the fact whether their code will be used at all and are having fun filling their heads with complex abstractions right before spitting them on screen.

When it first started doing this I found it be to more tear down the moat many developers like to put between them and the rest of the business. Basically get up and go talk to QA, helpdesk, delivery, and marketing. Find out what is failing and fix that. Make sure those groups can use and maintain the code being delivered. THEN work on things that are new or champion those things that are broken to get fixed in the next cycle. That was devops to me.

Then it turned into this guy who can not really do anything. Can not really check in code because the devs do that (separation of duties). So you never get any real experience in the codebase. Can not make any decisions because the marketing/product owners do that. Can not really make better test cases as that is for QA. You can however help on the helpdesk they are short 3 people today. Then the meetings. Endless meetings upon meetings. Because your 'devops' you need to know everything that is going on and better have those statuses on the high priority items to be fixed. Oh and you are 'on call' so you can never really 'go home'. Then if something breaks all you can do is just call in others and make them fix it. Making you little more than tier 3 helpdesk. Useless paper pusher job with zero authority.

Yeah, that was it. And like Agile, it sounds good on paper.

Point is, once developers start doing support, they stopped taking those learnings and going back and developing better. Instead the organization just started having developers do support. But then, why are the support people these highly paid developers, lets change the role definition again to not need to code.

Seems like on-going title shuffle, around, we don't really want to pay to develop, why can't we get by with no-code.

> Platform engineering is the right word. “devops” has literally no meaning.

If you want to cut through all the BS, this is ultimately a debate about cloud vs on-prem relative to our ability to manage complexity across multiple vendors & styles of product. If you go to the cloud and actually do it entirely their way without antagonizing the process with 3rd parties and other ridiculous nonsense, you don't need leet hackers to figure things out for you and build elaborate processes that you'd require a "devops" team to support.

In all 3 major clouds, there are well-documented happy paths that a junior engineer can follow to put a perfectly functional webapp live on a TLS-secured domain in about 1 business day. As far as I am aware, "getting the site live on public internet and making sure the certs are ok" is DevOps bread & butter. I am not going to pay for a dedicated team to do this kind of babysitting in 2023.

The real tragedy is all of these companies who "went to the cloud" but just wound up in an even more complex & contorted hybrid stance with the cloud simply appended to their vendor list.

I 100% agree with this. I don't see how the average internal platform-engineering team or "devops" team will be a better platform-engineering team than AWS/GCP etc.

This is exactly how I've been selling the whole idea of hardcore, cloud-native to leadership & our customers. Most responses begin something like:

"By leveraging the capabilities of a multi-trillion dollar Death Star ..."

The objective is to get completely out of the game of managing VMs, certificates, authentication, MFA, et. al. There is no way in hell we can do a better job than any cloud provider when it comes to compliance, consistency, security, etc.

Maybe when we have 10k+ employees we can reconsider the benefits of suffering additional complexity.

you’ve clearly never built a website of any scale or complexity on any of these clouds. they’re esoteric and fussy. the documentation is often poor and wrong. they trick organizations by providing tiers of expensive support but it’s not great, especially when you’re running into a novel problem. there are “easy” plug and play solutions offered but they cost a lot and come with tons of drawbacks. Building a functional, secure website at scale is a lot different than exposing some ports and loading certs.

> you’ve clearly never built a website of any scale or complexity on any of these clouds.

That's a hell of an assumption.

> there are “easy” plug and play solutions offered but they cost a lot and come with tons of drawbacks.

Agreed. But, I'd argue that these drawbacks/constraints are exactly what you need when you are faced with a virtually unlimited # of choices. When you are building software that needs to survive audits and is sold to financial institutions with 5+ year contracts, intentionally paying to have your hands tied is a fucking blessing.

I also used to shit all over the cloud until I was put in charge of the whole product stack and had to field difficult phone calls from other CTOs. You may find your position change over time too if you are put into this kind of a situation.

> Platform engineering is the right word.

First of all platform engineering is two words. second of all what is my understanding that devops = platform engineering? Do you have a dictionary definition for these? No, so it does not make sense to say that you should use X instead of Y. Btw. systems engineering and technical operations are the things we usually mean by devops, deploying, configuring and scaling applications in an IT infrastructure and dealing with different aspects of running these applications. DevOps was just an approach to remove the silos that some companies built between development and operations bringing good old tribalism to technology because we cannot exist without tribalism.

> Let’s get rid of devops and hire platform engineers.

I wish this problem was so simple.

Sorry, english is not my first language, but I’m glad you pointed out my confusion about how many words are in “platform engineering.”

> DevOps was just an approach to remove the silos that some companies built between development and operations

I know this is always the intention but it is never implemented this way, it becomes a “throw crap over the wall” situation again because now you’ve made a second team and management sees that stuff as “their” job and the silos develop.

I don’t profess to know the correct way to do it, but if I was managing an IT team, I’d assign a dedicated “Ops” guy to every dev team who would occasionally also write code. I dont care what you call this person. I’m in favor of platform engineer because it’s a lot more defined than “DevOps.” People have wildly different ideas about what “senior” devops is too. With a term like platform engineer, my gauge for if a person is a senior at that role is by the quality of the platform they can deliver to me. it’s vastly better, but again, I don’t give a crap what you call it as long as organizations finally understand what they’re hiring someone to do.

I suppose I'm the guy you're talking about - I'm the lone ops guy on the one dev team for a small SaaS business. I try to write as little code as possible actually; which isn't to say I try to spend little time writing code, it's more that I try to rely on community maintained frameworks because I fear creating some complex duct-tape and zip-tie web of homebrew automation that becomes increasingly hard for myself (or god forbid another person) to maintain.

I like the term platform engineer or maybe just infrastructure engineer, but I don't think they really add much specificity. For instance, we don't use any of the big three cloud providers, which I suspect would be an expectation for most of these titles. I think the possible diversity of modern tech stacks is just too much to pin these titles down, and mostly I just tell people I'm an "IT guy" ; it's only when you talk to someone in the industry that titles like Devops or Platform Engineer have any meaning, and as this thread shows, there's not even that much consensus within.

I've had now like 6 titles in these years - infrastructure engineer, DevOps, SRE engineer, platform engineer. They always want essentially the same thing it seems like.

Technically all words are made up. And, part of the problem is industry does keep shifting the definition. Think point of article was Devs became DevOps became Support.

> “devops” has literally no meaning. I’m only 6 years or so into my career, but I can count on a single hand the amount of devops engineers I’ve worked with that can actually “dev” - and by dev, I mean do stuff like dig into application code and suggest modifications for the infrastructure, or write their own full fledged libraries.

To me that is simply not DevOps. That's just Operations. Businesses are throwing around the title without a care for the word

> - site starts to scale, never had an ops team

Can you be more specific?

From what I understand, "DevOps" helps you get what you want into production. Whether that be a few Docker containers of your node.js or Rust or Go or Java or C# or whatever application (probably an HTTP microservice or a batch job) as well as your infrastructure (Redis, Postgres, a message queue maybe)

Obviously scaling your microservice API from 2 to 4 isn't "all devops do". I also get that not everything is a Docker container. I'm just curious what I am missing.

I get that for example, making Postgres "scalable" is much harder but... is that really a "devops" thing or is that a Postgres-specific thing?

Same for Redis if you need multiple scalable instances.

Scaling infrastructure isn't easy but I thought devops was just responsible basically for standing up the "pipelines" to deploy whatever you want.

Why can't you just have a monorepo of application YAML that goes into ArgoCD or something like that? Where do you hit the "need devops/consulting" part specifically?

I usually come in after the fact to clean up whatever horrible thing the consulting firm did. I don’t want to malign them publicly but it’s the same one every single time.

I think they might not “need” it as much as they think they do, but they want faster deployments, better automation, less downtime. Usually the devops team is the one that handles this for most organizations. ramming code into prod by scp’ing some files into a single monolithic host can get you a long way, but at a certain point, it doesn’t, IMHO.

> but they want faster deployments, better automation, less downtime.

Which part of that isn't covered by `kubectl apply / argocd sync` in a pipeline of some sort like a Jenkins or a TeamCity or a GitHub Actions?

> 6 years or so into my career, but I can count on a single hand the amount of devops engineers I’ve worked with that can actually “dev” - and by dev, I mean do stuff like dig into application code and suggest modifications for the infrastructure, or write their own full fledged libraries.

damn, that sounds pretty good. need to look into some devops courses.

> Let’s get rid of devops and hire platform engineers. The problem is it’s a really weird and rare combination of skillsets, in a field no one really wants to do except complete weirdos (I am one). I’ve long said that DevOps isnt a career you choose, it just happens to you.

It always has been. Always!

This is why FAANGs paid their SREs top dollar.

The problem, as you noted, always starts from the top. Cultural change needs to be championed by someone with power inside of the company. However, cultural change is slow (site starts to scale) and expensive ($150k hacker nerd) and many executives still think of tech as a cost center to be optimized (see also: ChatGPT).

Platform Engineering now is where "DevOps" was in 2014 or so, but with more Kubernetes and Rust. But as long as executives who do not (or refuse to) understand the value that strong engineering teams bring forth, the Platform team will just be interchangeable with today's DevOps team.

I'm more than happy to focus on "DevOps" (wretch) but not in the course of building an application. One or the other. If I'm building an app and working through all of the requirement gathering and development the last thing I want to do is fuck with containers, deployment, build scripts, or cloud services. I'm might just be an old grouch, but having this stuff foisted on me makes me want to quit everything.

The AWS Lambda + Serverless framework shit trend has to go. There are no savings or agility. It never handles everything. The gaps are the painful parts, not the bits it gets right.

I'll choose a simple nodejs app any day over that yaml trash fire.

I am not sure I agree. I am a DevOps by title and I am reading the flagship code before I try to get answers from development about why things do not work. I dig into stack traces, read legacy BS, "stare and compare" logs I had no idea even existed until this moment. I deploy code to production during the week after hours, I make SQL DB changes on the regular, both manually and via liquibase. I am expected to troubleshoot issues with kubernetes as well as standard applications.

I do not think my organization would call this a platform engineer, as that title makes no sense for the work I do.

Imo platform engineering is basically that but putting web ui and apis on top so that it’s easier for devs to do it themselves

In faanng componies I know, they r usually the infra engineer/reliability engineer/production engineer, etc. They are treated the same as typical software engineers just that their focus is not on the product.

TIL about platform engineers. But I'm still unsure what kind of things they produce. I know that they basically create a self-service organisation-specific infrastructure that can be used by developers inside an organisation to deploy software. But how does this self-service look like? Do developers fill in a web form to automatically get a server with the right firewall rules?

Explaining what platform engineers do requires explaining why platform engineering exists.

The whole idea behind platform engineering is the mindset that the "platform", i.e. the stuff that runs the things that business cares about, is a product.

Reframing the platform as a product instead of "IT" or "the place where apps go" introduces three concepts that were previously foreign to operations:

1. The platform has customers instead of consumers, and getting/acting upon their feedback is important,

2. The platform has some semblance of reliability guarantees, and copious observability is needed to uphold them, and

3. Like other products, the platform needs a dedicated, cross-functional team to maintain and improve on it.

So basically platform engineers are engineers that focus on either the "developer experience" part of the platform (i.e. the platform's frontend) or the platforms back-end (servers, persistence, networking, etc.).

> But how does this self-service look like? Do developers fill in a web form to automatically get a server with the right firewall rules?

Kind-of. In an ideal platform, developers wouldn't even know or care that their stuff is on a server. It could be in a toaster, for all they care. So it's kind of just there. They write and maintain code locally, and their build and release pipelines stores and deploys into it.

Yes. Honestly it generally looks like low quality wrappers around AWS that don't save anyone any time.

You probably never worked on a complex system to think that

I've read a lot about golden paths. And therefore I guess: The UI of the internal platform might not look as polished as AWS, but maybe it is much more focused on the features that the developers in the organization actually need?

My title is platform engineer.

In reality I spend my day doing everything from yes infra work and living in yaml, to working in Go/TS/ruby/elixir/etc repos and building those as well.

We have dedicated infra team, and as platform engineer I have to know their job to an intermediate level in addition to having advanced level in shipping code across stacks.

I love it but most other people seem to struggle with the constant context switching.

The shittiest thing is to think that "devops" is a team or profession or group of people or some practices for admins. DevOps is the paradigm which have to be followed by the company which generates revenue online.

Hmmm, Platform Engineer as you describe it kind of sounds like System Administrator.

What you say is very true and I have seen it myself a few times (even being said consultant :)).

I’ll add that platform engineering is where much of the hardcore engineering happens nowadays in modern software stacks. In the olden days, SWEs had to know the hardware/low level software stack themselves.

I think the SWE role is what is at risk of commodization. It’s something sufficiently good LLMs may even be able to do themselves at some point given the right instructions.

Platform engineering will never go away - it’s close to the hardware and so many things can go wrong. You’re building the abstractions so SWEs can sit in their cozy IDEs debating about overly complex language features and libraries (said tongue in cheek as I’m guilty of this plenty).

That was so chillingly accurate to my own experience I am actually baffled.

> we need a dedicated devops team

Here’s where it went wrong.

> “devops” has literally no meaning.

No, it does, you’ve just chosen to let vendors, consultants and managers redefine it as “whatever we were already doing”.

But if you don't have a dedicated ops team, some people get pigeon-holed for the role in the team. Not necessarily the best thing for them, because now they face pressures from both sides.

I'd recommend the lead takes the role.

This is a simple organizational problem with a simple solution: don’t do that. Instead, ensure everyone on the team has a production pager, and that the person responsible for work prioritization gets every single page in order that they feel the pain of that (this may well be the lead, like you say!).

Align incentives to create simple, reliable software.

> and that the person responsible for work prioritization gets every single page in order that they feel the pain of that.

This sounds like an incredibly toxic work environment

It’s substantially less toxic than the people who prioritize work only prioritizing feature delivery, and not operability.

Having one single person get all the pages does sound like it's going a bit far. The point though is for there to be a tight feedback loop between problems in the infrastructure and the ability to solve them. If this isn't the case, someone else in the organization is feeling that pain, but often they aren't empowered to solve them.

> Align incentives to create simple, reliable software.

This is the way.

I think if everyone around you is changing the definition of a word, then it is fair to say it doesn't have any meaning anymore. Either if everyone around you is using it in same way, then you adapt. Or if everyone has different meanings, then it is meaningless.

Indeed, there are many examples of this (“woke” and “DevOps” are two I’ve encountered just this morning), and we should push back on all of them rather than accepting a continuously escalating stairmaster of bullshit.

infra platform

What is an "infra platform" ?

Infra is short for Infrastructure

What is an 'infrastructure platform'?

platform engineering is where all of the fun problems are too!

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