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How did we get from Palestine to the Muslim world? The article is about Israel and Palestine - nothing to do with the Muslim world.

>>How did we get from Palestine to the Muslim world?

I answered what uce0054 wrote about in the comment tree above, mainly demonizing and double standards.

Edit: If you don't really think it is relevant that the main critics of Israel mistreat the Palestinians much more than Israel, it is funny... but not surprising. I've never seen that from an Israel-critic.

Based on your posts in this thread I'm really getting the feeling that you're an apologist for the human rights abuses Israel has perpetrated against their Arab citizens. Oh, maybe they aren't actually citizens because they aren't people.

I find it depressing when people hate and demonize a whole democracy with very heterogeneous political life

...

these people of the Arab world's

wait - wut?

Add a "," if you fail to parse. "... from these people, of the Arab world's way of destroying the Palestinian refugees' lives, by refusing to integrate them."

Which you certainly realized, fredster_s (in your 4th comment.)

You insinuated that my discussion of Hasbara means that I am some kind of "disgusting" Nazi referencing "traditional anti semitic hate propaganda", when I was linking to the Israeli Citizens Information Council's own website.

You may find it "depressing when people hate", well I find it depressing when people can't answer my points and so have to resort to declaring the subject to be off limits, then smearing me, and finally changing the subject to Sudan. You owe me an apology.

Oh, and by the way, the Israelis did shoot children, bomb and rocket cities in Gaza in 2009, so how on earth do you say "(No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)"?

You have nothing to say about that the Arab countries destroy Palestinians' lives more than Israel ever did? Or my other points re double standards?

>>You insinuated that my discussion of Hasbara means that I am some kind of "disgusting" Nazi referencing "traditional anti semitic hate propaganda", when I was linking to the Israeli Citizens Information Council's own website.

You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media. That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc.

That is traditional antisemitic conspiracy arguments.

>>the Israelis did shoot children, bomb and rocket cities in Gaza in 2009

If an army fight people that hide among civilians, there will be civilian victims. Even if the army follows the war laws. That is very different from targeting and glorifying murdering children, which I wrote about.

(And civilians are generally not a direct target for the Israeli army -- Yes, you know the Israelis are evil and want to murder children, but please realise it is bad PR and against their direct interests.)

> You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media... That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc.

This is not quite what I wrote, but whatever. Even if it were, it's not just the Okhrana, the Nazis and Hamas who say stuff like this either, it is also Zionist lobbyist Haim Saban (Link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/05/10/100510fa_fact_...) The fact that he said the same thing doesn't make me a pro-Israel billionaire either, anymore than the Protocols make me the Tzarist secret police. The point is that you can dismiss something if it is untrue, not by calling names. You still owe me an apology.

> Even if the army follows the war laws. That is very different from targeting and glorifying murdering children, which I wrote about.

Israeli Tshirts depict pregnant Palestinians in sniper crosshairs, captioned "one shot two kills". Link: http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/15245946 That's two apologies you owe me.

> You have nothing to say about that the Arab countries destroy Palestinians' lives more than Israel ever did?

How? The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place Israeli Link: http://zochrot.org/en

> Or my other points re double standards?

Again, see http://mondoweiss.net

But let's say you are right for the sake of argument that "Arab countries hurt Palestinians more than Israel ever did"

How is that justification for suppressing the factual reportage "Israeli authorities are threatening to demolish the installations in six of the 16 remote West Bank communities being illuminated by alternative energy, arguing the panels and turbines were installed without permits." ?

It is not. You are using untruths and smears to try to suppress the facts.

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda.

You guys also wear white capes?

>>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place

You handpick facts and twist them. Some points:

1. There were lots of refugee problems in both world wars, many worse than Palestine. This is the only case were the suffering was made permanent for generations, just to be able to keep up the hate. It is just disgusting that you blame others for what the Arab states did differently than the rest of the world.

2. There were more people thrown out from the muslim world just for being jews than Palestinians that fled in the middle of a civil war. Then there were jews from the West Bank that fled 1948-1949. Why do you guys never mention them?

3. Argh, enough.

You don't argue, you write one eyed hateful propaganda. I stopped reading.

This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. The language wars trolls are bad as it is.

"You handpick facts and twist them"

If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts.

That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up".

For example, you claimed that Israel doesn't glorify infanticide and I provided the link showing that snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade glorify the shooting dead of fetuses enough to wear Tshirts about it. Or you said that I provided "very little support" for my contentions about Israeli public relations, when in fact I provided the term in Hebrew hasbara that any reader can google and wikipedia for and decide for themselves.

It looks pretty silly when you make up stuff that a reader can falsify by looking on the same web page.

Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations.

This is called ad-hominem. You are trying to label me as Hitler because you are on the wrong side of the facts about Israel's treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, and so you can't stand seeing these facts on Hacker News and wish to censor them.

It is intellectually dishonest and I read it as a violation of the Hacker News Guideline: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names."

I will therefore not reply to you further.

You didn't like that I wrote that you argued non seriously.

But you have nothing to say about the facts I argued that you handpicked, re expulsions for racist reasons (wrong religion) as compared to in the middle of a burning civil war, which both sides did?

So you have totally different standards for different sides.

I wrote that "Israel doesn't glorify infanticide"

>>snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade

I don't believe you are honest here, either.

You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals.

(You will find individuals with most any opinion in any country and in democracies they can express most of those opinions, too.)

I already made this point re T-shirts, you had nothing to say then either.

And so on. Keep this subject and the fanatics off HN.

This might also be noted:

>>Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations.

You ignored the 1st sentence in what you comment:

"There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda."

But you know that. You can only argue against straw men.

As my last words:

Repeatedly condemning a heterogeneous democracy based on T-shirts of a small subgroup.... That must be the most pathetic and dishonest garbage I've seen in my life.

Then you claim I am dishonest... I got vertigo. If you're a troll, congratulations on blood pressure raised by sheer dishonesty.

After calming down, some well meant advice.

I realise that conspiracy theories, intolerance and similar breed like flies in dictatorships. Afaik, it was the same in e.g. Eastern Germany.

But even if you grew up in a non-democracy, you should be smarter than condemning a whole country for what some individuals do. Especially in this case, with all the very different political movements inside Israel.

I realise you were taught that kind of "reasoning" in school and by media, but start thinking for yourself. For your own sake.

For instance, consider the anti semitic-inspired conspiracy theories about media control -- if you see your other garbage (T-shirts, etc) you ought to realise that you've been fed with some outrageous lies. Sooo... there might be things in those US media which you don't know, right?

All the above assumes you are just brainwashed by your social environment and not consciously doing propaganda.

(That you are unable to acknowledge a point and either ignores it or start with judging countries for a T-shirt(!) do speak for you being a hate mongering propagandist. But I am not certain.)

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN.

Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions.

Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group.

This is entirely predictable, and is why subjects like this do not belong on HN.

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge.

berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything.

Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough to decide for themselves.

Please stop.

...the fact that you misuse the term "ethnic cleansing" is annoying enough for me to respond, but this is my last reply to this thread.

County X has two populations, the zarbs and the tiwks. The zarbs kill all the tiwks. The zarbs have been ethnically cleansed.

You may think this is a trivial point. But you're talking to an international audience, and you're talking about a subject where language is analysed in minute detail for perceived insult or support or whatnot.

No, that's genocide.

Genocide = Killing

Ethnic cleansing = Expulsion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

>>The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge.

That would be a normal discussion. This isn't.

When I noted the official acceptance and idolising of terror, even murdering sleeping children with a knife, you "countered" by judging a very heterogeneous country by a T-shirt...

Just to not let the Israeli side be less than evil -- or better than "your" side in anything.

I commented on the insanity of the "argument" three times -- you just wrote that your T-shirt claim proved something!

1) Can you give an example of worse argumentation, ever?

2) Do you really think anyone wants to read that kind of garbage?

Edit: So it is clear. My point is that the facts won't emerge when the people debating lie and use obfuscation (i.e. lots of text) when they are plain wrong.

The facts emerged.

You called my posts "lies", "hate", "garbage" and "antisemitism" and made claims backed with no references.

I provided references to Israeli and Jewish sources that any reader can check. Here are some more:

http://www.icahd.org/

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-surviv...

http://www.zochrot.org/en

http://mondoweiss.net/

In the GP, I wrote about your claims about a whole country, based on some T-shirts.

That showed you to be a totally non-serious debater, ucee054.

You can't answer that (for the fourth time), so you link to an 86 year old individual and some activist organisations?!

Sad. You can't even admit failure, afterwards. You know the other side is evil.

What now? You'll lie? Here is a link to my first comment. You could maybe delete the parent?

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3637264

Also, your claim that it is possible to debate this subjects with fanatics is proven wrong. QED.

Edit: Since you don't seem to know it, you can find groups having most any opinion in a democracy. So activist web sites is not exactly the best support.

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people".

I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references.

And I never claimed that every Israeli glorified that; in fact I have referenced Israelis who do not. So in fact I have nothing to answer you for.

However, you have to answer for smearing the entire Palestinian side without providing a single reference. Apart from unsubstantiated assertions, the information content of your posts has been nil. I will charitably presume that you meant to condemn Hamas.

In that case, let the facts against Hamas stand. And let the facts stand about the Israeli destruction of Palestinian infrastructure - which was the original topic. Readers are smart enough to make up their own minds.

I don't need to "debate" you point by point, especially since you go off topic and into ad-hominems. And Hacker News doesn't need your permission to cover topics you are uncomfortable about.

>>condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people"

It is policy/tactics from the Palestinian side to use terror. Not only Hamas. And glorifying murder of children at close range, etc.

You compared that with some T-shirts of individuals...

But you know exactly what I meant.

I stopped reading after you were dishonest in the first paragraph.

I wrote:

>>But you know exactly what I meant.

In fact, I wrote the same thing one day earlier to ucee054. See second half of this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3638221

Are you trying to claim that all Palestinians are terrorists, and there is not a single innocent person amongst them?

Because I can think of plenty:

It is the policy of Palestinian civil society, including over 170 NGOs, to resist by non-violent means, specifically Boycott Divestment and Sanctions

Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctio...

http://www.bdsmovement.net/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Barghouti

>>Are you trying to claim that all Palestinians are terrorists

You assumed I wouldn't check back a few days later, so you could safely add another dishonest strawman attack?

Already in the brother comment to yours, I gave a link to one of my comments which answer this latest strawman. The relevant quote from it:

You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals.

I have made it repeatedly clear that I am talking about the innocent Palestinian civilians and not "official policy".

If you want to change the subject to "official policy", then state whose official policy. Specifically who. Hamas? Fatah? Who?

Unless it is somehow the "official policy" of the individual villagers being deprived of electricity in the original solar cells story, I will not be impressed.

Oh, and provide references. Your word isn't good enough.

I have been sprinkling references throughout my posts and, last time I checked, you had not not provided even one, yet you accuse me of dishonesty?

The nerve.

This time you came back 9 days later to ger the last word...

In my previous comment I showed that you knowingly lied about my opinions, then argued against your straw man.

Then, you claim I have nerve?!

And after you lie to make an argument, it is a bit late to start muttering about references.

(Besides, the latest discussion was your claim that the Mideast is a good subject for HN, which obviously is not the case -- because of the lying hate propagandists. Again, thanks for proving my point.)

Since you don't seem to understand -- I argue that this is an impossible subject on HN, since the fanatics are just insane.

You support my position when you e.g. quote an 86 year old individual and political activists to "show" your position -- i.e. that the Israeli side is evil and guilty of everything bad that happened.

>>Israeli Tshirts depict

And you judge a democracy because some T-shirts some people wear?! I really wish you are a troll...

Seriously, don't you have less ridiculous and less braindead attempts at arguments? Is this REALLY the best you have?!

Edit: So if you went to e.g. Spain and ended up at a metal gig, you'd judge all Spanish people as satanists... :-)

berntb have a look at http://mondoweiss.net

It is liberal jewish website that criticizes the Sudanese genocide and the treatment of Palestinian refugees by the arab world, seeing as you don't get enough of that from the Swedish media.

(Links http://mondoweiss.net/2012/02/the-palestinian-refugees-of-le... http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/darfur-part-2-lets-get-to-know...)

Mondoweiss however don't use these stories to cover up Israel's crimes either

So you don't have to worry, there aren't "double standards for different groups..."

Good arguments against me claiming all critics of Israel copy and paste from the Zion protocols and that no criticism is possible.

Oh wait, I never said that...

I'm not surprised by your choice of black/white straw man to "argue" against...