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Comment by eek2121 | Hacker News Reader

I have to disagree. I moved from Android to an iPhone because I WANT a walled garden.

I need you to understand that I build my own PCs/gaming rig, have been in IT for years, and I've been a full time developer for decades.

The thing about the iPhone is that I DON'T have to think about it. Malware is VERY rare, MUCH more rare than Android, and I DON'T have to worry about...basically anything.

This is coming from a guy running 2 desktops and a laptop. A Windows desktop for gaming, a Linux Desktop for productivity, and a Macbook Pro for the day gig. Oh and I also have a Windows laptop for a mix of everything on the go.

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You disagree that users should have a choice? The comment you replied to didn’t say the walled garden shouldn’t exist, or that it’s bad, just that people who own the device should have a choice, i.e. you can stay on iOS with the walled garden, or you can flash it with whatever the hell else you want. The second choice doesn’t invalidate the first.

Everyone has a choice. Choose Android. If you think iPhone is the wrong choice, don't choose it.

Is Android really so terrible that you're having difficulty deciding between it and Apple's walled garden? Surely it's not THAT bad.

Do I understand correctly that you suggest something without even using it?

As a developer I use Android a lot. It's fine. I don't see what the big deal is.

Good, switch to it for a couple of years, use multiple vendors and then let everyone know how Android is a viable alternative to iOS.

>Good, switch to it for a couple of years, use multiple vendors and then let everyone know how Android is a viable alternative to iOS.

"I want Apple to be forced into making the same choices that its competitors made because those competitors' devices are, collectively, a miserable hellscape," isn't the winning argument you seem to think it is.

Completely missing point of what I said and making a straw man out of it isn’t the gotcha moment you seem to think it is.

>Completely missing point of what I said and making a straw man out of it isn’t the gotcha moment you seem to think it is.

Okay, so what's the point of what you said? For reference, you said:

>Good, switch to it for a couple of years, use multiple vendors and then let everyone know how Android is a viable alternative to iOS.

What, then, is the point of what you said? You seem to believe that Android is not a viable alternative to iOS. What specific actions do you believe Apple should be required to take here?

I've been using it for years. It has its issues, but also has its strengths. The biggest issue these days is that Apple has built a walled garden around their messaging system. I can't fault Android for that.

Yes, Android is terrible. This is a duopoly, not a free market. Users are disadvantaged.

If Android is terrible take it up with Google, not Apple.

How about both? And with the regulators, too.

Are you seriously suggesting that it's Apple's fault if Android is terrible?

Yes, I do. There is literally no choice for people who can't afford Apple or for any reason don't like it. In this sense Android is almost a monopoly, which allows it to stay popular and terrible. This is classic duopoly.

If you think Android is "almost a monopoly" then how do you figure that Apple is responsible for breaking that monopoly? Surely it's Microsoft's responsibility. Or perhaps Blackberry's. Or is it Nokia's?

If Android really is a monopoly, perhaps the solution is to break up Google — not to force someone other than Google to turn their product into an Android clone.

In a duopoly, it's the fault of both sides, isn't it? They both misbehave, even though in different ways. I would be happy to break up Google and also (at user's choice) remove the Apple's walled garden.

Between android and ios you have choice between $50 and over $2k of phone prices. You have quite a big choice in terms of smartphone prices/capabilities.

One of iOS key features is it's walled garden. If you don't want that don't buy it. It's like complaining that Ferrari doesn't make Corrolla priced cars. They just... don't. They also don't make 3 cylinder cars making less than 200hp. Buy what fits your needs don't ask Ferrari to make a Camri competitor.

Imagine there was only Ferrari and Corrolla...

Sure. I’m imagining that. I still don’t see how Ferrari should be compelled by law to make economy cars.

This is not at all what I'm asking. I'm asking them not to prohibit me to replace the engine after the warranty is over.

> This is not at all what I'm asking.

Maybe you could be less cryptic? You could start by describing what you'd hope we'd imagine when you said "Imagine there was only Ferrari and Corrolla..."? Because I imagined that and you told me I imagined the wrong thing. That's not how it works. I did exactly what you asked. If you wanted me to imagine something else, you would need to tell me what I should have imagined. Be less cryptic if you want to be understood.

> I'm asking them not to prohibit me to replace the engine after the warranty is over.

Wait, all you want is for Apple to not stand in your way when installing a different operating system on your iPhone? Sure, I'm all for that. I wouldn't expect Apple to be obligated to document the hardware or write drivers for you. You're probably not going to get Apple to give you the source code for Face ID or the secure enclave. But I agree that there's no reason why Apple should make it difficult to install an entirely different operating system.

That's got nothing to do with what you've being saying though.

yes, because that option will be exploited. most of the people are not tech savy, if some app tells them to change a config, they will do it without any afterthought. i don't have to support the ipad i gave to my father, which is not the case with his android phone, that has a lot of crap/adware/malware installed.

why do you guys deny so much that this happens? i am happy that andoid exists, but i just want the ios experience to continue to exist, we all have a choice.

Have you ever unlocked the bootloader and installed a custom rooted ROM on Android, which is what the original author requires?

I have. For most vendors, it involves putzing around with adb commands in a terminal and copying image files around. GrapheneOS is the most user-friendly, thanks to a WebUSB installer that holds your hand - but it still involves hitting key combinations in the recovery screen and other scary stuff.

Even for that best-case scenario, unlocking your phone always involves a factory reset, which wipes all your apps and data.

The idea that Epic and Meta will quit the official store and ask their users to go through that process is hilarious.

> Malware is VERY rare, MUCH more rare than Android,

Until your phone stops getting security updates. Then what? You toss it in the trash? Can you jail break it? Can you run something like postmarketOS on it?

Isn't that kinda the point of the original article? To get off the cycle of buying a phone every few years just because Apple decides it belongs in the trash? And to prevent e-waste from going in the landfills?

The current version of iOS still supports iPhone X, from 6 years ago. Who are these imaginary people you think want or need a 7+ year-old phone?

So here's a graph:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/276306/global-apple-ipho...

What happened to the many hundreds of millions of iPhones sold before 2017? Landfill?

That graph shows iPhone sales year on year. I’d be interested to see recycling stats as I know Apple will recycle iPhones for free but I couldn’t find much with a quick search.

How many Android devices are still in use after 7 years? And receiving updates? I suspect these are generating e waste at a much higher rate than iPhones but would love to see some comparable figures

I'm in complete agreement here. All phone makers should make their devices last for a minimum of 10 years after purchase. Not just Apple. But Google too.

I too would like to know those stats for both Apple and Android. I suspect it's rather low though. I'm pretty sure e-waste just gets sent to China these days.

This is a shame because there are a lot of old tablets and phones that would be useful as general computing devices.

> All phone makers should make their devices last for a minimum of 10 years after purchase.

I don't think it's necessary. They should just allow full user ownership and let the community use the phones as they wish. Including the Android's closed drivers, which should become FLOSS after 10 years or so.

I have sent at least 8 Android phones to the landfill over the years. They either lost support and had no alternate path to a new OS or a catastrophic hardware failure that made them a paperweight.

I'm on year 2.5 with iOS and all three of our phones are as smooth as the day we bought them and I expect to receive at least another 2.5 years of support.

I love when people say that and apparently think it's admirable/amazing that a device would still work 6 years after its release.

But most devices used to work a lifetime. My motorcycle was made in 2009 (14 years ago) and is in pristine condition. The previous one was over 25 years old when it got stolen (by someone, presumably, who thought it was worth the risk). Blenders from the 40s still work. Not to mention non-electrical tools like hammers and such, which last for generations.

Parts of my home desktop computer are over 15 years old; the case itself was made in the 1990s.

It's one thing to get newer devices that do new things, and quite another to have to throw away old ones that should still be working fine.

Phones have no moving parts, there's no good reason they should become obsolete.

Well, the iPhone from 2009 was an iPhone 3GS, it had a 320x480 screen, 256MB of RAM and only supported 3G - a networking standard that has been turned off by the major carriers.

If your motorcycle only supported leaded gas could you use it?

> Phones have no moving parts, there's no good reason they should become obsolete.

You’re right, Apple should have made it so the cell radio supported wireless standards that didn’t even exist at the time.

If the iPhone emitted toxic poisons on a daily basis, yeah, we'd want to ban it too. But it doesn't.

Also the original iPhone from 2006 had bluetooth and wifi -- so there's that.

> If your motorcycle only supported leaded gas could you use it?

Yes! It was the case with the previous one (the one that got stolen); all I had to do was add a few drops of a special liquid every time I filled her up. No problem at all.

>only supported 3G - a networking standard that has been turned off by the major carriers.

Remember, the US is not the world. What major carriers do in the US is not necessarily a global fact. Where I live 2G and 3G is still a fallback if 4G or 5G doesn't work. It will continue to be that way until 2025.

>If your motorcycle only supported leaded gas could you use it?

Google lead replacement additive or think about whether the engine could be rebuilt/replaced on a motorcycle. I certainly would prefer an engine rebuild/replace over replacing a modem in an iPhone 3GS.

>the iPhone from 2009 was an iPhone 3GS, it had a 320x480 screen, 256MB of RAM

The iPhone from 2009 wasn't that impressive in specs compared to other phones at the time. My even older 2.5G dumbphone had higher PPI on the screen and could run useful j2me apps. In 2010, the iPhone 4 came, had a 640x960 screen and 512MB of RAM. The fact that the specs could be doubled within a year shows that the earlier 3GS wasn't pushing anything spec wise.

> Remember, the US is not the world. What major carriers do in the US is not necessarily a global fact. Where I live 2G and 3G is still a fallback if 4G or 5G doesn't work. It will continue to be that way until 2025.

And it’s two largest markets - the US and China don’t support 3G GSM. What’s the market share of iPhones in your country?

> even older 2.5G dumbphone had higher PPI on the screen and could run useful j2me apps

J2ME games weren’t nearly as advanced as App Store games. The App Store was introduced a year before the iPhone 3GS came out.

I use a ~10yo iphone 5S...

The number of people like you is too small to care about.

Well, the iPhone 5s from 2013 got a security update earlier this year. It’s the first iPhone that supports LTE and the older networks are being turned off.

That won't be the case forever, so what then?

And if history is any guide, the 4G networks will be cut off eventually too and you won’t be able to use the phone as a phone.

I don't know the answer to this, but does iOS support Voice over Wifi?

Yea. But it still requires carrier support and often carriers won’t allow you to connect a phone to their network if it doesn’t support a compatible standard. I guess you could use Google Voice over wifi.

It could still be a usable computer.

My 14+-year-old laptop not just receives security updates. It runs the latest Debian without any problem and I see no end to this. What's the problem with phones?

My understanding is the chip makers, not just Apple but for Android that's Qualcomm, Samsung, etc.

Apparently only the chip makers have the necessary info to release the drivers for the latest Linux kernel, unlike your laptop where newer versions of Linux can always be recompiled for your hardware without help from Intel or AMD.

This is also why 3rd party Android distribution have to provide separate images for each device, while Debian can distribute a single image that works on any x86 machine.

You are not wrong, but the phone manufacturer could search for chips respecting the users if they really wanted. My GNU/Linux smartphones (Librem 5 and Pinephone) will work just like my laptop, with indefinite software updates.

Apple employs the best chip designers on the planet and even they are struggling to make cellular chips that are as good as Qualcomm.

And your phone isn’t going to last forever, carriers turn off older protocols and your phone is going to magically work with the newer ones.

Apple intentionally chooses proprietary chip designers not respecting users' freedom. It forces users to regularly buy new devices and brings a lot of profit to Apple. (Apple doesn't care about the respective damage to the environment.)

My phone is a general-purpose computer, which can be used to communicate without a mobile carrier if necessary. Also it allows to replace the modem with another one: it's on an M.2 card.

Who else are they suppose to choose that can make a performant 5G chip?

And users don’t “regularly” have to buy new devices. The 2013 iPhone 5s is the first iPhone that supports LTE and it just got a security update this year.

And how much larger and less battery efficient would a phone with a card be? What about the surrounding hardware? Could you just throw a 5G chip in a 2009 iPhone 3G?

Most people don't run 14+ year-old laptops. The market share of those people is too small to care about. You are just lucky somebody still writes drivers for your outdated tech. I wouldn't use a laptop older than 5 years if you paid me.

Why the hell would I torture myself with a laptop from before 2010? The screen quality must be horrendeous. Speakers absolute trash. Battery life also garbage. What is the point of doing this to yourself? Just to be able to show off on HN and other nerd sites where everybody still uses cassette players because they were "tOtAllY cOoL BrO".

This is a strawman. It's not your business why I need an old laptop. This is wrong to prevent me from using it on the grounds of my own (dis)comfort. Did you hear about thin clients or security through isolation? I don't want to throw away a working device if I can find a use for it. Unlike Apple, I care for the environment.

Yes that mean old Apple is only supporting iPhones 10 years old and the first one that works with LTE…

No one is preventing you from using it. Let me put it the other way: why should people work to support your old device? You are causing discomfort for others by forcing devs to pollute their codebase with code to support your obsolete technology.

What if after a number of years (<= 10 years) you would have to pay devs to support your hardware? That seems more fair to me than simply expecting your stuff to still be supported for free. Except I'll tell you what will happen: you will buy a newer device. Because it's cheaper than paying devs' salaries.

I fully expect after a number of years of using a device to receive a message: "Your device is unsupported as of now. Buy a newer one. We won't waste our lives supporting your stuff for free. Sorry, but not sorry."

How much wasted time is there in the linux kernel supporting old devices I wonder? At some point they will surely go for a great purge in the kernel to get rid of the old stuff. The thing is just getting more and more bloated.

Who are you willing to pay to keep your phone updated forever?

Purism and Debian?

And you can buy an Android phone for that - problem solved.

For what? Android won't provide lifetime updates.

iphones aren't that secure, just FYI.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2023/06/operation-tri...

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