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Comment by TheRealPomax | Hacker News Reader

Ah yes, "instead of getting a feature added for free that I won't need, and the presence of which would not impact me or anyone like me in any way, shape, or form, how about everyone just buys another $1500 phone?"

Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form.

Just go "I'd never need that, but power to you if Apple ever adds it. Which we can be pretty sure of they won't". Don't hate on folks for wanting things that you don't want, but also won't affect your life in any way if they got it.

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> Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form.

How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? What if the the tight grip over the hardware + software is the best way to ensure that millions of users stay reasonably safe? Isn’t this basically a way to prevent supply chain attacks? I don’t know… do you know? How can you say such things with so much confidence?

> How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device?

Because this is a technical forum, and we all know that this isn't how any of this works.

It is entirely plausible that iOS cannot remove all the security restrictions that would be necessary for a useful sideloading, without exposing attack vectors.

There's an astounding amount of FUD against any prospect of side loading apps for such a supposedly technically oriented community here.

Sideloading means that apps can (and will) migrate from appstore to other store with relaxed taxes, privacy and security, and all users will face app serp hijacking and permission extortion. Not only those who want their android experience on iphone for some bizarre reason.

I would love to hear some ideas about how it could be implemented without jeopardizing the security. A technical analysis, without words like "probably", "maybe". I'm fairly technical and ready to be enlightened.

Allowing sideloading means allowing third party developers and large corporations to make their app force sideloading. If large companies like Uber, Facebook, et al require sideloading it will make it more acceptable for smaller companies and developers to do so. Pretty soon everyone would just say "sideload", including unscrupulous smaller developers. At that point since everyone is sideloading, no one would bat an eye to yet another sideloaded app. Not to mention why would anyone not choose to sideload to avoid the Apple tax?

But there's something to be said of getting a phone that specifically can't do certain things, whether that be for privacy (Facebook says: download the FB App Store to get Instagram!), security (evil maid attacks), or giving it to my great grandparent who just needs to use some social media apps and the phone app.

No, this doesn't enable evil maid attacks. If your evil maid has the means to unlock your phone in order to enable sideloading, then it's already game over, because with that same access they can get your passwords and your 2FA second factor. Please stop trying to suggest that evil maid attacks are a concern here.

One time opportunistic and potentially brief access to the phone is different to installing spyware (during that brief access) which reports all activity forever more or allows Mitm on your data.

An APK is an APK. It's beholden to the same mandatory permissions system and has no extra abilities whether sideloaded or from the Play store. Sideloading != rooting

Since about iOS 6, iOS exploits have started with a sandbox escape exploit, since the attack surface is so large with native code running on the device (only one since then, the Checkm8 exploit, used a USB exploit instead). Getting native code on a user's device for "free fortnite vbucks" is step one to silently jailbreaking phones and running adware/malware/spyware.

We’re over a decade into having smart phones. At this point, you’re going to have to weigh up what your priorities are and get the phone that does what you want.

Not argue on the internet about the way things should be.

I did and I will.

Don’t make it sound that Android is “iOS without walled garden”. I want ecosystem without bloat, that doesn’t spy on me and where I’m not the product that’s not the state of Android at the moment (unless you’re willing to bother with custom ROMs).

I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain.

You are correct, you have the right to complain.

But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. And you won’t support a project that is more aligned with your goals.

> But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless.

Are they? EU will force iOS into getting sideloading, like they forced them into adapting USB-C.

> I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain

I agree that removing freedoms from the users is unethical and counterproductive. But at this point the only reasonable action is to give money to companies intentionally respecting your freedom.

Sent from my Librem 5.

Disagree, what incentive does Apple have to listen for feedback from people who are not even in their ecosystem?

Our household is pretty much Apple exclusively.

Apple has no incentive to listen to anything at all at this point. The only reasonable action is to give money to those who do, i.e., support good alternatives.

Why not simply avoid buying an iPhone in the first place?

I want a phone that is as fast as a flagship phone like an iPhone, with a keyboard, daylong or better battery life running fullblown Debian. What shall I buy? It doesn’t exist. Nor can I put Debian on most flagship phones; takes time for them to get rooted if they ever do. And then they don’t support half of the hardware. So best option is Android. Or anything, including iOS, with vnc. Now that 5g is everywhere here and I have fiber to my house, I opt for VNC; ideal, it is not.

>I want a phone that is as fast as a flagship phone like an iPhone, with a keyboard, daylong or better battery life running fullblown Debian. What shall I buy? It doesn’t exist.

Have you ever paused to consider why your mobile unicorn doesn't exist?

Sure, but the GP said that I can get the phone I want/need nowadays. I can't. Not even close. Maybe the astro-slide, let's see.

> What shall I buy? It doesn’t exist.

I’m not sure this is an argument.

You’ll find that virtually everything you buy does not meet your exact specifications. If you are not filthy rich your home will not be to your exact specifications, your furniture, your clothes, your car, your luggage, your kitchen.

What most people do is work out what they can afford, prioritise features, and try to buy they can afford and maximises the features they want the most. Maybe they decide, it’s not worth it and get nothing at all.

Same thing with your phone, you may be forced to buy something, but you can get the minimum thing to get by. Maybe you are a rich tech worker and you can run a separate phone that aligns best with your needs and wants.

What will 100% not get you what you want, is complaining, giving the company you don’t like $1500, and then giving the company that might one day live up to your dreams $0.

This might come close: https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/astro-slide

Yes, I am in the waiting list. It does come close. I have the previous version which is a great keyboard, but just not there yet in the mix between phone and ultra-portable. I have high hopes.

Oh dear, heaven forbid we keep wanting features that should have been there from day one after the ten year cutoff! Good thing you reminded us of that expiration date.

People are happy with the way things are. Why are you trying to mess with their things? If they want to use a phone that’s restricted to a walled garden App Store, that’s none of your business.

Will you be taking responsibility if there are unforeseen consequences to side loading?

There plenty of other phones out there that allow side loading. Go use one of those if it’s that important to you.

And allowing sideloading will ruin their walled garden experience how?

Last time I checked, you need to explicitly go and enable it on Android.

What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand?

I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them.

> What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand?

Sorry, I didn’t see need to address paranoid fears.

> I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them.

I really don’t get why me wanting product improved mobilizes internet on a crusade against my valid complaints about absurd limitations of platform.

Except, of course, there aren't millions of phones. There are two. So yeah, complaining that there are features missing for a large part of the target audience is rather perfectly rational behaviour for a customer base.

So your argument is Apple might secretly be entirely incompetent or malicious, so a simple ability to side-load apps couldn't possibly be offered?

It's like someone told you you can only use an iPhone in a bungalow and you think some magic monster will appear if you let others use it in a house.

More of a “if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”.

P.S. My pet theory why Apple is so controlling about what kind of apps are allowed is to prevent “embrace, extend, extinguish” tactics. Imagine if MS created dev tools for iOS that produce apps that use a specific runtime and it gets super popular. Now MS has a say in iOS’s ecosystem, Apple has to maintain compatibility with that runtime (and will need MS’s cooperation) and if MS decides to cripple support for those dev tools it will impact iOS app creation.

That explains the JIT ban and not much else. It doesn't explain the obnoxious morality clause, the ban on entire classes of applications, and so forth.

How is adding an option for other people to use messing with their thing? They have no obligation to use it

No, "most people" are happy with the way things are. And as it turns out, people reading and posting on HN are not most people.

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