Rick Rubin’s creative genius | Hacker News Reader

Rick Rubin’s creative genius

latimes.com

102 pointsandsoitis92 comments

To me, the weirdest part of Rick Rubin as a producer is that he has no distinctive sound. As best I can tell, there's no way to listen to an album and know he produced it.

I've watched a lot of interviews with Rick and about Rick, and his role seems to be entirely limited to being a muse for artists. He's not technical, he's not a musician, he doesn't really do anything beyond taking naps in the recording studio while the musicians record, occasionally opening his eyes to ask them how they feel.

To be honest, it would almost be possible to argue that Rick Rubin doesn't do anything worthwhile if he didn't have an outrageously long and unimpeachable resume to back up his contributions.

It's kind of crazy. He's basically a filtered and focused amplifier for an artist as opposed to typical producer/collaborator. he's the ultimate 'PED' for artists!

Yes I've noticed that too. For one example, compare Tom Petty doing Full Moon Fever with Jeff Lynne, and then a few years later doing Wildflowers with Rick Rubin. Lynne has a sound, and it's all over FMF. Rubin doesn't have anything distinctive in the final product of WF, but you read or watch things about the recording and he's talking with Petty about it the entire time.

Those ELO albums with Tom Petty, George Harrison, Roy Orbison et al. where pretty good.

It seems like he often takes on a passive role but has no problem being more active when necessary. The story of how he pursued Johnny Cash and introduced him to Nine Inch Nails’ Hurt is one example.

I’m reading Rubin’s book now and I really like it. It’s full of his observations and advice which includes not listening to advice. Very short chapters that are easy to read but I try not to read more than one or two a week because I find myself thinking about what I read for days.

Or the need to get hip hop understood by the masses through a familiar lens - ergo the Toys in the Attic hook into Walk this Way with Run DMC who he had to convince those washed up rock stars would help them sell more records.

https://www.loudersound.com/features/walk-this-way-run-dmc-a...

I think this is truly is Rubin's defining contribution and achievement: the industry leaders had an appetite to expand the hip-hop market to the mainstream and, judging by the general low-effort nature of the "Walk this Way" mashup, I can only assume almost any ol' crap would have gotten the airtime and juice to get over the top.

But Rick himself was the guy who could broker these deals with the artists', not some older label suit, but a guy who presented himself more as an artist and collaborator. A guy like that is huge value for stakeholders looking to steer the consumer towards a new product or a cultural trend.

Agreed. He reads his own audiobook and it’s incredible. I keep going back to it.

It’s all in the book promoted here. I guess he gives artists space and permission to be their best selves. Most of the time he seems to like removing things rather than adding. But most of all he talks about being the ”first listener” who is trying to figure out what is the essence of the piece and how to bring it out.

The book is so interesting that I actually paid full price at an airport.

Highly recommended. He even talks about things that never occurred to me, like how he tried to coach his artists into a flow by making sure they had everything from the start, like appropriate shoes!

Wish he’d been my mentor. Read it, if you are a creative, or a creative sympathizer!

It’s encouraging to at least hear that they don’t 4x the price of books in airport shops like they do with water, etc..

This is super frustrating when you see the same in colleagues. Specifically, when upper management starts asking why we should keep person X around, as they were involved in a ton of accomplishments, but don't seem to be the driver for any of them.

Suggest they watch "Moneyball".

That is a good point. My understanding is that there are different types of producers, and some lean more technical, while others lean more consultative, and Rubin is falls in the latter camp. Contrast that to other more technical producers like Phil Spector, or Dave Fridmann whos productions have a very distinctive sound.

My observation is that it seems like his skill is helping the artist see their work in a different way, helping them make creative decisions, and just generally offering counsel around how to make the best possible work. This process doesn't manifest in a specific sound, and each production is different based on the needs of the artist.

See also Trevor Horn.

He famously took six months to produce Pet Shop Boy's "Left to my own devices".

Great example of the technicians and the artists dismissing the business development guy understanding users.

https://www.loudersound.com/features/walk-this-way-run-dmc-a...

I remember an interview where people that worked with him (I think Jay-Z?) described him as a "reducer" more than a "producer" which makes sense to me.

I've heard stories of artists with projects deep into scope creep calling Rick Rubin in to help cut through all the chaff.

It would make sense that he doesn't have a particular sound if his goal is to help the artist make the best possible art they can.

He stated as much in his recent Lex interview - paraphrasing "I get paid for my taste... and besides just saying what I like or pointing out what doesn't work, I'm aggressive at removing what isn't necessary to get the point across".

If there were a product manager version of Rick Rubin, I think they'd be worth their weight in gold.

This is an interesting thought.

It seems like in many cultures, bringing someone in to cancel unnecessary features would be admitting defeat. At least, to the PM.

I wonder why it's okay to do that with a song but not software. Weird cultural stuff...

Reduction is almost magical.

Last year, I was working as a founding engineer for an early stage startup. We were working on a pitch deck, and I was trying to make it really well designed and professional. I'm a former artist so even though I'm not strictly speaking a designer, I have enough visual chops to make it look pretty.

So anyways, I put hours and hours of effort into this pitch deck. When we presented it to our advisors, they tore it apart - not because of the visual aesthetics but more so because the content itself wasn't good enough.

I was pretty upset that I had spent all this time making it "look nice" and now have to go back and redo a lot of the content, so I told myself "just get rid of everything that isn't 'design'". That way I could just focus on the content itself without having to waste time on the visuals.

What happened is that the end result of this process genuinely looked way better than before. When I stripped the design out, the design came to life.

For killing scope creep, yes. But Rubin works off instinct and his own tastes and is forthright about having no clue or interest on what listeners want. Those aren’t traits that really make a good PM, but thank goodness music isn’t product management. PM’d music is Maroon5. They are a product, not art.

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”

Somewhat analogous to the function of editors, with regard to published books.

I don’t get the criticism that Rubin doesn’t have “a particular sound.” Music should have the musicians’ sound, not the producer’s. The producer should be invisible and bring out the best in the musicians, the way an editor in writing is.

It never occured to me that it could be criticism. I thought the lack of a "Rick Rubin sound" was more more of an observation.

It’s not supposed to be a criticism. Not having “a sound” means you’re versatile and dynamic.

He's like a service animal for artists. He figures out what they need to feel comfortable and safe, to get into that flow state, and keeps them there while they record.

I really love him, he's an American treasure. I am so personally grateful for what he did for Johnny Cash.

Wouldn’t not having a distinct sound be a good thing? You’d want the artist to shine through I’d imagine.

Not necessarily, if I'm listening to an album because of the artist then sure, the producer should be transparent and fade into the background. If I'm listening to an album because of the producer, I probably want to hear them add their distinctive touch. Danger Mouse, Madlib and Dan the Automator are examples of producers with very strong individual sounds and I'll make a point to listen to albums they've produced regardless of the artist or genre.

I guess listing hip-hop producers here is a bit unfair, since a large reason I listen to any given hip-hop track is because of the production, but Danger Mouse has produced rock albums that have a definitive Danger Mouse sound.

It depends. I like Steve Albini's style. Raw and live sounding but I'd still put Pixies Doolittle over Surfer Rosa, I do Nevermind for In Utero. Checkout Nina Nastasia whom Steve have worked multiple times.

That's an interesting point. I feel the same way, but Albini would argue that he doesn't have a "style". His whole concept is being a kind of anti-producer -- he sets up the audio equipment and lets the band play, and his goal is to capture the live sound as closely as possible, whatever that might be.

I just came across Rick Rubin about a month ago. Had never heard of him before. He's one of those people who, upon hearing them speak, you just kinda get the sense that they're one of the coolest dudes on the planet.

His ideas are gold. It was his idea for Run DMC to cover Walk this Way, for Johnny Cash to cover NiN's "Hurt", for "99 Problems" to start acapella, and the bridge for "Chop Suey". He's not just passively enabling artists, he actively provides input as well.

Lack of reverb, especially in drums. He notoriously hated reverb.

One of the reasons it's hard to pin him down is because of the impact he had. It's like a fish in water or a nation jot recognizing it's distinct culture. This man, more than any other single man, impacted American popular culture to an unimaginable degree. If you grew up in the 90s or 00s, the music he produced dominated, set the tone, was the soundtrack to the American experience.

His records tend to be extremely "loud" too in a "pushed" or "squashed" sense of the word. Add that to the shortlist of his sonic signatures.

Not that loudness is a defining quality, but it's (in my opinion) a short-sighted trade-off for short term impact at the expense of long-term listenability that his records subscribe to.

Just as one example that he definitely doesn't do literally nothing, here's him giving a suggestion that created an iconic intro to a very well-known hip-hop song: https://youtu.be/FqNDYvsOZkc?t=203

I think he is a musician, though he downplays his skill. He told Jack White that he played guitar in Beastie Boys first album.

https://twitter.com/jetsetter/status/1574188554787655680?s=2...

> He's not technical, he's not a musician, he doesn't really do anything beyond taking naps in the recording studio while the musicians record, occasionally opening his eyes to ask them how they feel

He sounds like the Steve Jobs of music production! He seems to have the unquantifiable gift of having good taste, the faith and respect of the people who work with him.

This brings to mind his advice that is basically 'If you want 10 good songs, write 30'.

His method remind me of Nail Gaiman: "And I think it's really important for a writer to have a compost heap. Everything you read, things that you write, the things that you listen to, people you encounter-- they can all go on the compost heap. And they will rot down. And out of them grow beautiful stories."

(And of course the pottery teacher story.)

Early rap records were mostly rappers, backed by house-bands playing disco music. Rick noticed that these early records didn't sound like what was being played in the streets (block parties and underground clubs). This bothered Rick, so he set out to produce a rap record that matched the sound he heard in the streets: "It's Yours" by T La Rock. This record is rarely mentioned as a hip hop classic, and it's generally overlooked as one of Rick's greatest hits. However, IMHO, the importance of "It's Yours" can't be overstated. Most significantly, it introduced the world to rap music from the streets, where it all began, with a DJ (and a beat), and a rapper on a microphone. That's it. No house-band. No made-for-radio, wanna-be disco sound. If not for "It's Yours", rap music might have died with disco. Hard to believe now, but it's 100% true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfndwTrDXbo

I'm kind of a hip hop trivia nerd, and this year is huge for guys like me: August 11th is generally regarded at the 50th anniversary of the birth of hip hop.

https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/birt...

One last thing, another generally unrecognized, but highly influential producer in creating what would become the hip hop sound was the late Larry Smith. RIP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Smith_(producer)

Thanks for sharing, I’ve never heard the full song but I’ve definitely heard bits and pieces of it. Off the top of my head, I can name at three songs that sample it; Nas - The World is Yours (throughout), Beastie Boys - Paul Revere (also produced by Rick Rubin!) and Girl Talk - That’s Right.

It reminds me of the first time I heard Top Billin’ by Audio Two, I had heard samples of it many times but never the full song.

I found the story of how Rick Rubin convinced Johnny Cash to cover Hurt by Nine Inch Nails quite interesting. https://www.musicradar.com/news/rick-rubin-johnny-cash-hurt-...

Similar cross over with Walk this Way leading to Run DMC’s mass adoption. Where the guy loves music and knows how to sell it.

https://www.loudersound.com/features/walk-this-way-run-dmc-a...

Accepting the conceit that the music industry is a meritocracy and that demand drives supply, Rick Rubin is clearly a 10Xer genius who gets the best of the best out of the best of the best while the tape is rolling.

Entertaining the conspiracy theory that the music industry is a cartel ran by a group of unscrupulous and insular gangsters with functionally-unlimited ability to promote and push garbage on the public, with marketing dollars and pay-for-play airtime being the primary means of popularity, one might assume that Rick was involved in projects whose success was a fait accompli, and that Rick's presence and observance in the studio goes beyond music.

Personally, I've noticed the wild variance in artists' opinions about working with Rubin: some say he's a genius and inspirational, but just as many say he's a useless loafer who checks-in from time to time without adding anything creative or useful. It seems, to me, that the former group come from "non-muscian" backgrounds: they are "artists" who usually contribute vocalisations which are a component of tracks created by producers; the latter group tends to include musicians and bands who are self-starters capable of producing songs on their own but expecting a pro producer to help the effort.

I noticed a few years ago that Rick's been involved in so many of my favorite albums it is nearly disturbing. I don't know what he's after but it's what I want to hear, apparently.

He did Slayer's first three records, Reign in Blood, South of Heaven and Seasons in The Abyss. All of them had distinctive drum sounds. Most of the early thrash metal records had pretty bad recordings, or the drums we hard to define. Not so with these records, the drums were very easy to hear in the mix with the rest of the heavy guitars.

The engineers invovled would certainly be responsible for this, Rubin himself has little-to-no technical ability or involvement with the actual process of creating music, instead he provides commentary, veto, and direction towards a high-level objective for the product being produced. But, he almost-certainly was the guy who told Slayer "yeah... that... playing really fast and loud, all the time... keep doing that..." and we all owe him for that!

Slayer had 4 albums before Reign in Blood: Show No Mercy (LP), Haunting the Chapel (EP), Live Undead (Live), Hell Awaits (LP).

However, the production difference between the pre-Rubin albums and the Rubin albums is stark, and the value of Rubin's help is really noticeable.

Oh I'm aware of all the Slayer records. The first show I saw them on was the Reign In Blood Tour back in 1987 at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles. Went to their last show at the Forum here in Los Angeles back in 2019.

If you like to hear a counter perspective watch the Beastie Boys documentary on Netflix. It's not about Rick Rubin primarily of course but it paints a much more sober picture of the man.

For those of us who don't/won't watch the documentary, can you please summarize the other perspective?

I'm not sure if I am able to, because it is very ambivalent. I think on one hand they looked up to him but on the other hand they found him alien. It would be easy to think that they admired him in the beginning but later were disgusted and felt screwed over, but my interpretation of the documentary is that they don't feel like that. It's more like they always had and maybe still have mixed feelings.

Just my take away.

I read the Beastie Boys book sometime last year and Rubin was everywhere with the Beastie Boys. Involved with record dealings with Rush Management and Def Jam, not only those but also on a personal level. Beastie boys and Rubin were really close.

Rubin was also instrumental in kicking out Kate of the Beastie Boys original drummer.

I think it is fair to say that Rubin's influence on the Beastie Boys during that phase is hard to underestimate. They would not have become what they are if it weren't for Rubin and I think they acknowledge that in the movie and probably also the book.

But it is also true that all of this happened roughly between 1984 and 1988, so a pretty short time frame in relation to both their careers.

Also reading up a bit on Rubin's perspective I think he had quite an ambivalent view of the Bestie Boys as well.

Yes Rubin was instrumental no doubt. He let them choose either Beastie Boys will be just 3 white guys or I am out. At this time I believe Beastie Boys was still a hardcore band and on their way to becoming a rap group. Rubin just don’t see Kate as part of the BB rap future.

Could you give a quick summary of how he is portrayed in the documentary?

See my reply to takinola.

Loved this podcast with Rubin and him being asked right up front what a music producer does.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1sMxk3DfydYWasJVZ4Nqy5?si=J...

I loved that episode. The part where he talked about being in tears from watching Alpha Go beat humans in Go using a move no human has ever considered almost made me cry. It was amazing to have someone who's not from our field appreciate the beauty of our creations. Rubin is quite an extraordinary person who can see the beauty in many things.

He was sorta the technical producer on the early beastie boys records in the sense that he was able to get them recorded.

After that he had the resume to get other jobs which became a sort of fly wheel since those later records also became legendary.

Now he’s practically a life coach and has the awesome recording studio in Malibu.

it’s a case study in having a great resume.

Hard to argue with a guy who was affiliated with all those great records.

Various band accounts over the years have described Rubin's role as a mentor and kind of 'album godfather' - a role which encompasses almost therapy-like factors and mental approach, but also some technical overview and experience. His work in the late 2000's with band Metallica for their 2008 album Death Magnetic was well publicised in the scene around that time, and several small videos and excerpts still exist, e.g. [0],[1],[2].

The value of that venerable mentor style role is clearly immense, as anybody ever well mentored through a big project by an accomplished elder - or indeed, had a good parent(s)! - can attest.

A few of the Metallica band member comments:

* "Rick made us comfortable revisiting and being inspired by our old albums..."

* "He knew what the ultimate Metallica album should sound like in his head..."

* "Rick was very clever technically, even in the tuning of the songs, he questioned why we had everything tuned down a half step.."

* "He did not want us to go into the studio until we could play these songs in our sleep."

* "Rick Rubin is a guy who listens to music, and says That's Good, and That's Not Good..."

* "His contributions are big picture, he's not a musician"

[0] What Rick Rubin Actually Was Doing While Recording "Death Magnetic". Metallica Interview : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm0AOVdPriI

[1] Metallica's Lars Ulrich on working with Rick Rubin VS Bob Rock : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atjw-dSM6kE

[2] Lars Ulrich on Death Magnetic, Rick Rubin - "What did Rubin bring to the table?" : https://youtu.be/GzMINDnoRRs?t=822

Despite the occasionally cringe lyrics and snare drum sound on St. Anger, the songs overall are much better and more memorable on St. Anger than on Death Magnetic, which was mostly unmemorable and sounded derivative. I'm sure hanging out with Rubin is way cooler than hanging out with Bob Rock, but just in terms of song composition the popularly maligned St. Anger is a good album.

I wonder how much of this success can be explained by survivorship bias? I am sure there are/were plenty of producers equally or more brilliant but who never got a chance, couldn't sign the Beastie Boys or Run-DMC, or worse timing. it is easier to be a legendary producer when you happen to get all the best most talented acts ,too. There were so many producers in the early 80s hip hop scene.

He was there at the beginning with Run DMC then the Beastie Boys, the latter was a punk rock band until he started to push them and as a member.

There really are talented people in this world. A bitter lesson.

That doesn't pass the smell test. He's still producing hit records. If it was just survivorship bias, certainly we'd be talking about him in the past tense given how notoriously difficult it is to stay alive and relevant in the entertainment industry.

it is easier to produce hits when you already established yourself, because then you get the top talent and have more money and media attention for subsequent records . they are not totally mutually independent events.

>how notoriously difficult it is to stay alive and relevant in the entertainment industry.

This smells really bad: the entertainment industry is notoriously hard for the majority of artists to gain a foothold, but there are just as many notable cases of sub-par artists getting ahead through nepotism etc. And that's only discussing the talent, the business end of the music industry has that issue to reductio-ad-absurdum levels.

This downvoting is ridiculous, your comment is entirely reasonable, objective as can be, and should serve as a starting point (for those already versed in Rubin's career and careerism) for this entire debate.

I would "yes, and" that. I hear you on the right place, right time. Successful producers have an ability to identify and cultivate talent. Early demos they hear are raw and undeveloped among a vast sea of those that don't make it.

I have mistenrd to interviews with him. I have to say for a guy this well respected, he certainly says very little of substance.

Highly recommend the audio book version - the combination of his tone of voice and the content feels magical.

His work is great but he's kind of a scumbag. I have a hard time looking up to horrible geniuses.

I'm not familiar with Rubin beyond his public persona. How is he a scumbag?

I read his book, "the creative act" and he comes off pretty arrogant. One of the chapters actually opens with him saying, "I AM art" and how fortunate the reader was that he took time to impart his creative knowledge into a book.

He's a talented artist and producer, no doubt, but the book was very pompous about his creative philosophy and felt like he'd just been surrounded by yes-men and believing his own hype for the past 20 years. He considers himself a modern Zen master/ Jedi of the new millennium and writes his own koans, lots of name-dropping about his model wife and their rich neighbors in Malibu, writing his own fortune cookie phrases etc.

Also the book didn't have much actionable advice on how to actually use creativity in your own life, it was more about how awesome Rick Ruben thinks he is.

All in all I can't recommend.

I'm 3/4 through the book and there's been no mention of his wife nor his rich neighbors in Malibu? What part of the book are you talking about?

There was actionable advice in the book... Rick talks lots about ways to get into the flow of creativity, having faith, and developing awareness.

Disclosure: I'm a creative, so maybe his artist freakery speaks to me.

Why is HN suddenly full of latimes/new yorker/nytime/bbc/gizmodo/etc articles? I had an internal bet that i'd find an iflscience.com post before the end of the week.

Reddit's down my man. Hopefully it doesn't trigger Hackernews' eternal September.

Have you noticed the downward trend in topics and discussions in the last 2 weeks? And that nearly every day another topic is about Reddit/spez? There's your answer.

It’s not like this is particularly new, just recently you had people complaining about the swath of AI posts, cryptocurrency before that and other shit in the past.

I don't think this is a particularly new thing. It randomly comes and goes. Maybe there's a peak now because of the reddit BS but I doubt it will last long.

Yeah I agree. It's frustrating to see HN become less of a tech echo chamber. Can't we just get back to blog posts about how technical debt is bad and why managers with MBAs are clueless?

This is a forum for a VC tech-incubator.

The very first paragraph of the guidelines, written by someone that works for said VC tech incubator:

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

The article generated 90 posts of discussion, I would say plenty of users found it interesting, even if you did not.

I’ve been on HN since 2007. It has always been general interest.

*On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.*

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Those sorts of articles have always appeared here. Maybe there's been a random up-fluctuation - I have no idea, but it's expected in any random sequence. If so, it will pass soon enough.

Edit: I see acheron already said this

I mean, I get it, I probably complained in the past about a bunch of Guardian articles on the front page. But eventually I realized that mostly it's just the effect where you notice things that bug you and then forget about them when they're not there. A bunch of Guardian articles show up, I get annoyed, then some amount of time goes by while I don't think about it, and then randomly some more appear and I remember again.

Omg you have hit on my personal pet point that no one ever notices!

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

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