My U.S. Arrest Nightmare. | Hacker News Reader

My U.S. Arrest Nightmare.

p1x3l.com

57 pointsbaby50 comments

Weird article.

First, so far as I can tell, this guy wasn't arrested. If you're going to have strong opinions on US civil liberties, start by knowing the difference between detention and arrest. In this case, the guy appears to have walked away from the incident with a ticket. He wasn't taken to a station, booked, processed, read his rights, or informed "you're under arrest". Also, in the state of New York, open container is a misdemeanor; in many (maybe most?) states, you can't be "arrested" for a misdemeanor without an outstanding arrest warrant.

Arrest is very bad. It creates a record, it allows the officer to search (thoroughly) your person and immediate presence, and in major metro areas will probably incur the very unpleasant process of being booked (in many cities, this may involve a strip search). Don't get arrested.

Detention is what happens when you're not free to leave but aren't being arrested. You can be cuffed during a detention. Very little cause is required to detain. Detention does not create a record, and (very importantly) does not allow the detaining officer to do much more than frisk for weapons.

In either case, laughing at police officers, while legal, is dumb. Picking a fight with them ("you're giving a bad image of America!") is even dumber. Stanford Prison Experiment aside, whatever the power dynamics may be, you are unlikely to be able to fathom the bullshit city police have to deal with on a daily basis during their shifts. You simply aren't going to be able to take the high ground from them; they don't care. The very fact that you'd consider needling a cop about their behavior is a spectacular luxury, and while I support vigorously everyone's right to avail themselves of that luxury, I'm not particularly impressed by people abusing it.

Finally, a summons for open container is in all likelihood not something that would have any impact on one's immigration status (you can Google this question to see immigration lawyers answering it). "Court summons" sounds scary, but it is exactly the same language used when you get a traffic ticket. Cops: not immigration officials. Happy to clear that up for him.

(Incidentally: in most of the US, you cannot buy alcohol in a pharmacy 24/7 --- although that is, I think, a silly rule).

Open containers are illegal in New York. Moreover, a 10 minute search on the Internet would have let him know that he doesn't have to appear in court, but can plead guilty by mail and pay the whopping $25 fine.

http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/criminal/specialprojects....

You know what I try not to do when I visit other countries? Break their laws.

Also, I pay attention when the police are talking to me and don't antagonize them.

Edit:

After reading it for the third time, I am still at a loss at what the cops did wrong in this situation except be exceedingly polite to people who are breaking the law.

My reading of this is that the police shouted at two people committing a misdemeanor to halt. They did not. The police stopped them with appropriate force. One person fought the police like a drunk moron and was tackled.

From then on the entire group of them is acting like drunk idiots and the cop tells them to shut up.

Polite? No. Abuse of power? No. I see nothing wrong here, unless you think that the police should be forced to take etiquette classes to deal with blazed foreigners who don't take the time to read about local laws on controlled substance use.

I'm trying to write this comment without hyperbole, but if I fail, forgive me.

The US is systematically destroying their main competitive advantage: luring the hardest working and/or most intelligent people to their country with the promise that they will be surrounded by others like them (either smart, or hard working, or both) and that they will be free to use their talents as they wish (research physics, build a chain of clothing stores, or start an internet startup).

I wanted to move to America when I was much younger. Canada was a bit more left wing than it is right now (although it still has its problems, don't get me wrong, and I'm mostly talking about the cultural attitude of left wingers, rather than the policies themselves) and America was a bit more economically free and much more socially free. The mindstate that the common citizens are in is appalling. I talked to one man the other day that seriously believed that police should be able to come into your house without a warrant and search your belongings. The fear of terrorism, the blatant anti-intellectualism, and the rampant corruption are ruining the appeal to foreigners to relocate.

And I'm a white, Christian, English speaking, male. The only mark against me is that my dad's name is the Turkish version of Mohammed, but he's half German, so none of it shows. I can't imagine how much damage has been done to the attractiveness of America in the past decade to a real middle easterner.

Now all of this being said, I've been to America many, many times. American people are great. Some of my family is American. Many, if not most, of my intellectual idols are American, but America needs to clean up the corruption and relax a lot more in order to restore her place in the world.

I don't understand what you're reacting to here. This is a guy who successfully got into the US and got a ticket for an open container (his friends may have been arrested, I couldn't tell --- but he wasn't). What systematic problem is this article indicating?

Why do you always defend/rationalize your government's or police force's bad behaviour?

Surely you can't think the police officers' behaviour in this case was impeccable? Not the least bit rude or authoritarian?

The police were totally rude. Perhaps even mildly abusive. And police are always authoritarian.

But --- and this isn't a moral judgement --- that and $4.00 will get you a cup of coffee in NYC. It's one of the largest cities in the world. It is incredibly difficult to police. I have a hard time mustering sympathy for the drunk guy who got yelled at while being ticketed for an open container. There are real police abuse issues (for instance, people's doors getting kicked down because the police get the wrong address on a no-knock warrant). I'll save my energy for them, and I'll keep not getting tickets by being nice to police officers. That trick will work for you too, and if you're like me when I was in my 20s, you'll find it's surprisingly easy to do once you get over yourself.

On the bright side, there are still plenty of very sharp people here, if you look in the right places.

Good news - it looks like you can just plead by mail:

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/nyc/criminal/specialpro...

Effective July 1, 2004 individuals who receive a Criminal Court Summons citing a violation of Section 10-125 (2b) of the N.Y.C. Administrative Code- “Consumption of Alcohol on Streets Prohibited” ( also known as “Open Container Violation” or “Consumption of Alcohol in Public”) are eligible to plead guilty and pay a $25 fine by mail. This program is available to persons charged with this petty offense only, and only if no other summonses are issued to the individual at the same time.

In order to plead guilty by mail you must send the following:

the plea form, completed and signed the summons you received check or money order for $25 made payable to NYC Criminal Court (DO NOT SEND CASH) with the summons number written on the payment The above items must be mailed within 10 days of the date that the summons was issued, to: N.Y.C. Criminal Court P.O. Box 555 New York, NY 10013-0555 If you plead guilty by mail, you do not need to appear in Court.

He could have written exactly the same "my NASA dreams are dashed" hyperbole had he run a red light, or even jaywalked. In every case, if he doesn't pay the ticket, a judge could issue an arrest warrant --- but almost certainly wouldn't. If this had happened in Chicago, the likely outcome would be that he'd be turned over for collections.

New York doesn't send a ticket to a collections agency. If you fail to deal with a ticket or appear as ordered before the judge, an arrest warrant will be issued. Next time you're in NY, you'll be arrested for contempt and shipped to whatever court you are in contempt of. (You'll pick up more fines too)

Dumb kids get in trouble like this all of the time.

Best to avoid the US altogether. Police over-reacting is totally [1] unheard [2] of in Europe [3].

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A683tiFk6tM

[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_Kx-mExBg

[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI0S-AcqQ1g

I hardly want to excuse police misbehavior; it's distasteful wherever it happens, but it's hardly a phenomenon unique to America.

I feel badly for this guy but drinking on a public street is a no-no in most places in North America. There is something to be said for understanding the local rules, regardless of how stupid they may be.

Yeah.

I understand it is a bad situation and everything, but as you said, that's just the way it works here.

In fact, he got off pretty light talking to the cops like that in NYC. You should thank your lucky stars that you were not...say...black American...you would have had a WHOLE lot harder time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, unless you left something out, it sounds like you were treated a good deal better than most NYC residents would have been treated under similar conditions.

Now that IS a bad thing...I realize...but...you know...

I'm just sayin'...it's not like they will single out foreigners.

Try being North African and mouth off to the police in the suburbs of Paris.

It is --- I assume this goes without saying, but this is HN and we're talking about the police so here goes --- much easier for the police in France to invasively search the people they detain, as well.

This doesn't sound like the behavior of a police force to me. It sounds more like the behavior of a gang.

Have you ever actually had a run-in with members of a gang? The idea that you'd equate incivility to gang behavior suggests that you probably haven't.

Incivility and even hostility is an unfortunate fact of life when dealing with urban police. You might just as productively complain about the weather. Or, if you're of a mind to see the other sides of issues, read a couple police blogs to get a feel for the shit city cops have to deal with.

They are, to be sure, authoritarians. The people that tend to post on HN, myself included, are not wired to be particularly tolerant of authoritarian behaviors. But they are not intrinsically bad people. They're doing an important and very difficult job, often under shockingly bad circumstances.

At the very least, try to remind yourself that when dealing with the police, you can get 1000x more power and control over the situation by being polite and (at least superficially) compliant than you can by being firm and unyielding. It is rare for people to be polite during police confrontations. Belligerent? All the time. Terrified? Sure. Calm and polite? Almost never. There's an exploitable vulnerability in police ability to handle calm, polite behavior.

Yeah, unfortunately in the US, drinking in public is against the law, and if you are with people who are breaking the law, you are also considered a criminal. Although it is pretty fucked up, you should be aware of the local laws, especially if you are partying after midnight in public in any city.

I wish things were different, to be honest, but if you put yourself in the law enforcement officer's point of view, what's the difference between a few tourists enjoying a bottle of wine on the street, and a few drunken hooligans causing trouble and starting fights. I'm not saying you were doing anything like that, but a cop really can't discriminate.

I do believe the way they treated you was unacceptable, however, and you should file a complaint against the arresting officers. I believe in NYC you can dial 311 to do this. Police officers should be held to a higher standard and they are trained that the response to any situation should be justified - in other words: violent, belligerent drunk gets slammed into a wall and handcuffed. Happy, carefree drunk tourists should get calmly spoken with and given a warning.

Don't make needless excuses. Firstly, there are many ways the law discriminates in your example; given your description, a cop could probably cite the second group for disorderly conduct or assault.

In addition, cops are not machines who accept a sequence of events and output "legal" or "illegal." Nor should they be, or could they be, given the complexity of law. An individual officer is indeed expected to exercise discretion and to enforce the law in ways that help society. It's impossible to take that discretion away from them, since we don't always have a way to judge the objective truth of situations without trusting some of the people involved, so we should remember that they hold that responsibility and be wary of attempts to discharge it.

I guess, to the extent you're right that police should be held to a standard of "unfailingly professional while issuing open container tickets to drunk people who are taunting them". We also obviously don't have the full story. His friends apparently were arrested. Arrest is a big deal; it takes cops off their beat or patrol for an hour or two. What did his friends do to make the situation worse?

Open container enforcement is a quality-of-life issue. Tourists and bros won't appreciate it, but you should be aware that in many places, the residents not only do appreciate it, but get angry if it doesn't happen. I'd be pissed if people were wandering up and down my street drinking in the middle of the night.

Finally: with regards to "making excuses", you should get over it. Getting mad at the police for being assholes isn't going to get you anywhere. You can be "message-board-correct" about this all you want, but there is zero power to be had in standing up for your right not to be verbally abused by the police. You are the least of anyone in the NYPD's problems. There is, on the other hand, tremendous power to be had in being able to come back at abusive behavior with calmness, politeness, and appropriate compliance (don't consent to searches).

Let's not confuse our terms. If you break the criminal law you are a criminal. If you violate some other statute (e.g. failing to stop at a stop sign, drinking in public, being undressed in a public place) it's not the same thing. You are not a criminal and shouldn't be treated as such. Yes you can be charged and required to appear in court, but that doesn't, in any way, make you a criminal.

According to the story, he was not drinking in public, although his friends were.

The rule in question is not only silly but also relatively minor: I think it involves something like a $25 fine.

He wasn't doing anything horrible or dangerous, but was treated like a base criminal. And that's the real issue--a complete lack of decency and civility by people given additional power and trust by the state.

I have to start by saying that the sandwich part is hilarious.

On a serious note, everything that you have said is what I wanted to say so I won't repeat. But how do you deal with this issue? Why does no one seem to be taking action?

This post will get some comments and by tomorrow it will be forgotten. It is your(everyone who agrees with this issue) country, why not do something about it before it gets worse?

For the curious (who want all the details) it appears his friends were held - and he was cited - for a drinking violation of some sort. His ticket, which he scanned, shows:

Violation: Section 10 Subsection 1252b (Admin code is checked)

Description: difficult to read, looks like "Open Alcohol Container"

Zip code: 12133

Can anyone get the name of the officer from the citation? I can't.

I am sorry this happened to you. By and large, the United States is a great place to live with lots of friendly people (and friendly cops) with whom to share your life with. It would be easy to paint all of America with a broad brush, but I assure you that you've experience an _exception_ to the rule.

No matter how friendly you think they might be, you should always avoid talking to cops. http://youtu.be/i8z7NC5sgik

Flagged. Not sure that he was arrested, it doesn't seem like such a nightmare and, unlike a recent article which was more relevant to YC-aspirants, it isn't really that relevant to HN. There would be countless stories on the net like this.

How is this story and thread relevant to HN?

One thing that kind of stuck out was that you were walking with a group of your friends who were drinking in public, and you were high. I don't mean to be crass but you were basically waiting to get picked on in the city. It seems like the cop had thought you were in possession of drugs.

Apart from that, I think that there are a lot of details that are missing that could have shed more light on why you were treated as such. The officers comments, however, are not the kind that I would expect a police man to say.

In other places, such as the UK (the dialect of which French students are taught), "high" means "drunk".

I am sorry to hear about your treatment in the US. The issue with Law enforcement is a festering one. Please don't let the government of America reflect on the people of America many of us are not pleased with it.

Yeah, I've lived in the US my entire life and I'm often more scared of the police when I'm walking or driving down the street than any potential mugger. I feel completely safe walking in the Seattle area, but when I see the police the cynical part of me gets immediately suspicious that they're not going to like the way I look, etc., and they're going to turn something into a problem.

Assuming that the story is true, what I don't really get is police using all the f* words and saying things like "don't come in America then" or "go back to your country". I would feel offended by that.

"I'm still eating my sandwich while watching the scene. The mighty authority doesn't seem to like it, grab my sandwich and throw it on the ground." - first thing that came to my mind after reading this was "Threw It On The Ground" song by lonely island. That must've been a pretty evil sandwich ;)

This is typical bullying by cop that you see frequently in the media. It's bad, but in other countries you could end up missing or taken hostage. There are parts of the middle east and africa that I'd be very hesitant to travel to.

I think the expectation is that the U.S.A. is a safer and more reasonable place than that. And perhaps it is, but it feels like the gap is shrinking. There are definitely some parts of the U.S.A. that I'd be hesitant to travel to as well.

In other countries (like the UK), the worse you could expect is them to take your drink, pour it down the drain, and send you on your way. Only if you start getting threatening or violent would you expect a response at that level.

Are you serious? "It's worse in tyrannical regimes"? That's your defense?

How about comparing to the US's contemporaries, like western Europe or Japan - the countries that are 'first-world nations'?

Japan's immigration control: Gulag for gaijin

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2012/01/japans-immigra...

Just off the top of my head because it was recently published. But if you don't think it'd be easy to dig up French or British security service nightmares you're deluding yourself.

Pardon me? I don't believe I made any attempt to defend. In fact I suggested that the mindset of the U.S.A being safer than tyrannical regimes might be worth reconsidering.

As far as police enforcement and incarceration in general, the US does not compare to Japan or western Europe. Which is why I didn't compare them that way. It is well known that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. According to wikipedia, "The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population". That doesn't happen without some questionable police behaviour.

I'm going to recommend watching Cool Hand Luke. While many folks love being rebels as they are youngsters, there is a cost to being "cool".

Slow news day

Don't you know US law enforcement and Homeland Security are seriously fucked up?

No-one from the civilized world should go to the US, unless it's necessary, and then you just do your business and get out, and not wander around waiting for something to happen to you.

Also, don't host your web apps or services in US or with European branches of US companies (e.g. Amazon data centers in Ireland).

(And yeah, I know this comment will attract a ton of negative votes, but I don't care, people need to be warned.)

I think you might be more successful in spreading this view if you take the time to write a good comment instead of consciously writing a shitty one.

Speaking as an American, there's not a damned thing wrong with his comment. It's accurate, to-the-point advice that needs to be given.

A single blanket assertion with nothing new, no argument, no insight is flamebait, not advice. What part of that comment would tell anything to someone who didn't already believe it? Do you think there is some European reader who has never given a moment of thought to the existence of America, encounters that comment, and goes, Aha! It turns out that America is fucked up! I'd better remember that! I don't think that reader exists.

But then I'd have to take a more nuanced view and admit it's not all black and white. And I don't want that, because I'm really angry right now. And I think such anger does have a function by making a tiny contribution to the public pressure on US govt agencies. Let them know they're having a really bad image in the world.

I hate going on reddit because of flamebait moronic comments like these. Time to find a new news aggregator...

Why stop there? There's an HN-clone for Europeans who don't like the American slant in many submissions. Maybe you should relocate? I'm sure your xenophobia[1] would play well over there.

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3595966

So critiquing the practices of US agencies (and advising to steer away from their reach) is xenophobia all of a sudden?

Then in your eyes, critiquing the reckless and brutal behavior of the Israeli government against Palestinians must be antisemitism. ;)

And I thought it was me who was using a broad brush.

I hate the US agencies probably more than you, but don't you think it's a little disingenuous to blacklist the whole country over it? Or were you in favor of starving the Iraqi people with UN sanctions because of Saddam Hussein?

As an American, I'm totally against giving Israel any US support at all. Same goes for the Palestinians. Same goes for Pakistan and any other country - hell, even all the way up to the UN.

"Continental Europe and Brazil are the only reasonable places if you want to live in a civilized world."

You should contrast the behavior of the Israelis evicting Palestinians to the Brazilians evicting favela dwellers. Also, the destruction of vast swathes of rainforest to make room for urban developments. Might make for some cognitive dissonance for your example of a "civilized" country.

No-one from the civilized world should go to the US, unless it's necessary, and then you just do your business and get out, and not wander around waiting for something to happen to you.

So critiquing the practices of US agencies...

That's hardly a critique...

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