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Comment by 3littlefish | Hacker News Reader

For those of us outside of the US, this seems crazy! Tipping 25+% adds such a lot to the final bill.

In Spain, we just leave a couple of Euros, maybe more if service was exceptional. There simply isn't the same pressure for diners to tip, as all waiting staff earn a living wage.

Tips here are simply an incentive/reward for good service, rather than absolutely expected in order to supplement the wages of underpaid staff.

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the US has a culture where regulations and general social interactions are so pro-business that people blindly accept false advertising in the form of fees and taxes being tacked on after-the-fact rather than impose on businesses by asking them to name an all-in number.

it's not just tipping but also sales tax, restaurant "courtesy fees", airline fees, fuel surcharges, resort fees, electric surcharges (I pay more in fees than I do for the actual electricity!), auto sales bills, etc.

The US is allergic to the concept of having to advertise an out-the-door number, because that wouldn't make for compelling advertising, and that's the focus in the US.

Tipping in quite a few countries in the EU is effectively illegal when done in cash. When added to the bill, the tip is taxed with VAT, then it as to be added to the salary, the latter is a subject of income and social tax.

It's a form of tax evasion, yet I have never heard to have been an issue (prosecuted)

I don't know about that - I've never heard that issue with leaving a cash tip in Europe, especially as the amount overall is fairly neglible. Most of mainland Europe doesn't even give the option to add a tip to a card payment when you get the bill as tips are discretionary.

What is considered a living wage to you? I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number.

In many large cities in the US the starting wage for a fast food worker can be $18+/hr. For someone working in an upscale restaurant can easily get hundreds per day in tips.

Since the purpose is to be a minimum wage to live in, it means a wage expected for low-skill jobs.

$18/hr is also a typical American salary for a new teacher [1], or $25+ with more experience, and I don't think working in an upscale restaurant should pay better.

[1] Many hits on Google.

The average wage in Spain is 2268 EUR per month (very low compared to many places), though people in the service industry will earn less than that of course. In the villages a coffee is about EUR 1.50-1.80 and a set 3-course lunch is around EUR 11-13 (but more in the big cities).

There are a lot of cultural differences (obviously) but the cost of living is generally less overall. Cafes and restaurants here are often staffed by either younger people still studying (and usually living at home), or older people.

It isn't a route to riches by any stretch, but people get a set minimum wage which should be enough to afford rent/shopping without needing to be supplemented with tips. That said - life is hard and the cost of living is definitely going up here. You wouldn't earn hundreds of Euros in tips even in the best Spanish restaurants though.

Would you believe that most restaurants in the US have a minimum 18% tip if you have more than 6 people in your party? The norms here are very different and part of the problem is lifestyle expectations. Minimum wage isn't expected to be glamorous, but some people think that having roommates is not a reasonable expectation for anyone.

Similar in the UK to be fair. Tables of 6+ often have a tip (10-15%) added as standard, though this is still "discretionary."

It is not discretionary most places here...it is mandatory.

> I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number.

There is no definition because it is impossible to define. Everyone will say a number based on their very specific circumstances, problems and expected quality of life (Which will also vary from person to person)

The elephant in the room is that besides trying to define a number for a livable wage there is nothing else but an extreme status quo replacement.

Kind of my point, should we be setting wages for people based on their lifestyle...or the other way around?

I think it's a fool's errand to define it either way. An endless task. Even if we eliminate corporate/billionaires greed.

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