Hacker News Reader

Comment by bayesianbot | Hacker News Reader

The linked Bloomberg article[0] had this info I found quite funny:

> Last June, Zume bought a company called Pivot Packaging to jump-start its ability to sell compostable containers to other businesses. It held a one-day test at a Pizza Hut in Phoenix in October, with the goal of expanding the tests to more locations in January or February of this year. But the boxes can’t legally hold food in some jurisdictions, including San Francisco, because they contain the chemicals known as PFAS

So.. compostable forever chemicals, how does that work?

[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-13/inside-th...

View on HN

I have just Googled "PFAS compostable" and unfortunately it does not seem uncommon... For instance [1] (from the UK):

"Surprisingly, the highest levels of PFAS (by an order of magnitude!) were consistently reported in moulded fibre compostable, ‘eco-friendly’ takeaway containers; the type we’re told are sustainable alternatives to plastic."

Also, I thought pizza boxes were just cardboard, especially since they are single use and for a short time, only.

[1] https://www.fidra.org.uk/chemicals-pollution/pfas-in-compost...

How bizarre. Great link, as it also goes into the lack of centres to actually carry out composting in the UK (at scale).

However it doesn't go into _why_ there are PFAS in 'compostable' materials. At a wild guess, they are too fragile without them?

This is only a guess, but... perhaps waterproofing? Did they replace plastic coatings with PFAS?

Hmm, I'm not certain, but it seems that fluorine applied to plastic coatings can make them better against oxygen and moisture and probably oils. This process then forms PFAS.

PFAS is used in the inside coating on "compostable" cardboard takeout boxes. Its also used in those compostable paper straws. The coating is to prevent moisture from damaging the container. I have no idea why someone would put it in pizza boxes.

I honestly think we should rethink some of these compostable things, PLA would work better for straws and packaging for cold food and beverages, and there have been wax coated cardboard containers for both hot and cold food for a while.

Aren't pizza boxes already compostable? What was going on? I would have loved to seen the investor pitches and board meetings.

On their own they are compostable, but after usage they are drenched in oil and other stuff, which makes it impossible to recycle them, and harder to compost in a regular unprepared setting. So maybe their aim was to make them compostable for any private customer or unprepared garbage companies?

You can generally compost food-soiled paper products, though I expect the cardboard used in pizza boxes wouldn't break down easily in a home or vermiculture composter. Commercial or municipal compost service providers should be able to handle a pizza box just fine. E.g., the Seattle municipal compost program lists pizza boxes as one of the top 5 things you should be putting in your compost bin: https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-services/collection-a...

oh, come on, a bit of oil is perfectly fine in the garbage/compost, a few moments ago (figuratively speaking) it was still a sunflower-seed or an olive, both of which are fine to throw into the compost and degrade fine on their own if they fall onto the groud.

Because olive or sunflower oil are the only oils that get onto a pizzabox? Said noone who has ever actually seen a pizza.

Wait is this really an issue? It’s not like it’s some petroleum product, it’s always some kind of vegetable oil, right?

Animal fats also compost reasonably fine. I think most come from cheese that is milk fats or from meats. But none of those should be any issue either.

Reasonably fine for large scale/municipal composting. Last time I checked there was a lack of strong consensus on whether animal fat always composts well in someone's backyard composter, so YMMV. But the reply was really poking fun at the idea that pizza fat (outside of strict vegan pizza I guess) is exclusively plant based.

It is when you order one with cheese. Or with pepperoni. Bacon. Sausage. Etc. Etc.

It is no longer the case that pizza boxes are not recyclable. Paper Mills all over the country have no problem recycling them even with grease and cheese on them. Some localities haven't updated their guidelines so please check yours and let people know.

https://www.afandpa.org/news/2021/lets-set-record-straight-p... https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/yes-you-can-recycle-your-p...

Source on pizza oil making cardboard uncompostable?

Hm. How bad are PFAS? Were those problems known to people in the PFAS-Industry?

Why are they even adding PFAS to pizza boxes?

Makes it grease and water proof... Paper is not really that great option without those.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com