Comment by martopix | Hacker News Reader

Comment by martopix | Hacker News Reader

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity, laws purposefully written for himself and his friends, and of course exploiting partisan news outlets. Berlusconi's career took a turn when he developed Mediaset to be a large TV company that could compete with national public TV, and still does, while offering a load of trash to the public. He was many times under investigation, sometimes convicted without ever going to jail, and many times exploiting the statute of limitations to avoid conviction by dragging the trial along for years.

His party was essentially founded upon him and his personality, and is currently one of the parties in the government coalition, with a relatively minor share, I expect voted by older people nostalgic of his era. We will not miss him -- but in hindsight we have seen even worse characters in the last 10 years.

> When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities ....

And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, which reduced itself to a role of a spectator with the index finger raised and perpetually shouting "no, you can't do that"- applied to just anything he said or did [1]. I have seen the same with Trump. Some part of the population (including me) can't really stand the perpetually scandalised, self-appointed guardians of good manners, and will become disgusted by both sides equally.

1) for example, once he dared to say "it would be better to consult a second doctor before undergoing a risky or debilitating surgical procedure"- that apparently was a scandal, too.

> And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, [...] Some part of the population (including me) can't really stand the perpetually scandalised, self-appointed guardians of good manners,

This had me nodding along.

> and will become disgusted by both sides equally.

This is the part that makes you, or perhaps just that part of you, a bad person.

You are equating somebody who actually abused power and brought the world closer to an authoritarian strongman dystopia to people who, by your own description, are mostly ineffective and don't actually do anything.

(I can sometimes feel a knee jerk reaction that feels a bit like what you're describing, but I would never be proud of it, and I think it's important to be clear on that point.)

> You are equating somebody who actually abused power and brought the world closer to an authoritarian strongman dystopia to people who, by your own description, are mostly ineffective and don't actually do anything.

I didn't say that they were ineffective: they were actually eroding the trust on their side by exaggerating and misinterpreting as much as they could, mixing up good and bad reasons; also, I feel that there is a germ of authoritarianism in people who are constantly complaining of others violating rules, including the unwritten ones and the plainly made up ones.

As for the other side, from one hand I think that Berlusconi was not as bad or dangerous as Trump (aside from completely different relevance for the world); otoh, I have seen enough demonization in Italy during the Berlusconi years to understand that at least some of what Trump was accused of had to be an exaggeration.

People would rather be in complicity with bad behavior than admit the left has a point.

> once he dared to say "it would be better to consult a second doctor before undergoing a risky or debilitating surgical procedure"

Do you suppose you could supply the context for this? I mean, I can guess, it's obvious, but I think it also matters for the discussion?

He had been prescribed some major surgery, but got a second opinion and found out it wasn't necessary and/ or it had been prescribed in error. He was sharing his experience and providing some sort of general advice.

And why was this a scandal? It's not very googleable (partly because the news of him dying is all over the search results)

Politicians from the left criticised him for giving an advice ("get an opinion from a second doctor") that they deemed a privilege unaffordable for poor people.

This seems like typical victim of populists marketing. No meter what populists have done, trying to shift the focus with "everybody is against me" and some people will eat it.

it will be the biggest meme week for us Italians, there are already incredible pearls on telegram

I think these are directly related to their age bracket and the demographics which they were representing. Italy just happened to be a lot more aged than america. We should be talking about the demographic page-turning that will happen in this decade

Been happening a lot longer than a decade. One of the reasons for the GOP's aggressive actions in things like redistricting ("gerrymandering") has been in an attempt to hold back the coming demographic crash.

Another huge similarity with Trump was Berlusconi's theatrics. He would often make boisterous, ridiculous statements in order to attract outrage. Very effective at distracting people from his actions.

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is).

Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt).

Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing ok.

You can easily dislike the Italian left for a number of reasons, but being commies is definitely not one of them.

Thinking about it...the left doesn't seem to have entrepreneurs in political leadership positions. Can't think of anyone World over.

Because entrepreneurs make laws against workers, which is a right wing thing.

> in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt).

That's a pretty bad description of the situation in Italy.

First of all we (I am from Italy, I voted in 1994 when Berlusconi bootstrapped his political career) have a large number of parties.

In 1994 there were at least 20 symbols grouped in 2 main coalitions.

Secondly, the communist were already a thing of the past, they dissolved in 3 different groups in 1992, but communists in Italy have a strong tradition and have been the backbone of our democracy.

Last but not least, the left in Italy is divided in an infinite number of movements and parties, communists were historically the largest one but Italy has a Socialist party that is separated from the Communists.

p.s. corruption of the Communists (as a political party) has never been proved anywhere.

Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges, ended up in Berlusconi's party. Incidentally Incidentally, Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money, or at least keep him out of jail.

> was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money

This is the perfect definition of a politician. And sadly it applies to 99% of them in a "democracy".

> Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges,

It wasn't really a purge, anyway not so many, just those that were on the Bettino Craxi's side, who was close friend with Berlusconi, who was best man in the second Berlusconi's marriage, a man who's considered the one who ruined the Italian Socialist Party beyond recover.

Proof is the two Craxi's sons: Stefania ended up with the center-right coalition, Bobo with the center left and he's still member of the PSI (Italian Socialist Party)

> Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities

That's a bit romantic.

He had a lot of help from corrupted politicians and organized crime.

He simply escaped justice for enough time to make the narrative of the political victim stick.

>> Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities

>That's a bit romantic.

To be clear, my description was very much tongue in cheek. The man had no discernable sense of morals. He very brazenly allied to whomever he needed to further his interests. For example he was always very friendly with Putin and I wouldn't be surprised if a Russian exile was always an open option if things went south at home.

> Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise.

This government like any other has failed to address the big themes and is concentrating on stupid, more media-friendly stuff. Zero addressing themes of tax evasion, public health, public school, work reform... the list goes on.

A pleasant surprise? A government that says "we do whatever USA tells us to do, against our own interest" is good? If you're from USA I guess…

> "we do whatever USA tells us to do, against our own interest"

This statement sounds like criticism, not an endorsement of such state of affairs. But I was unable to find a source for it, so context or a citation would be welcome.

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