Logistics challenges of saving Air India’s diverted 777 in Russia
flightradar24.com
flightradar24.com
The reality is quite boring. It should come as no surprise that Air India was not flying over Russia without any idea what they would do if they had to divert to an airport there. As for sanctions, they are mostly concerned with end users, and if Air India flies in their own aircraft with their own parts and engineers, they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed. A lot of tedious paperwork is probably the biggest challenge.
(The logistical challenges if it had required an engine change are certainly real, though.)
If Air India wants to risk sanctions, whereby their entire fleet loses access to new planes, engines, parts and servicing, sure.
We’re looking the other way. India is more important as a regional relation than global player, and the degree to which it’s practically enabling Moscow is minimal. India has its own interest in not becoming a Chinese vassal, something Russia is rapidly devolving into. Any military planner in India worth their salt is keenly aware that in a conflict between New Delhi and Beijing, one would have the leverage in Moscow.
https://www.ft.com/content/ebb851db-6ff6-4334-a47f-dd176b2ad...
I highly doubt that because these kind of sanctions given with absolute bullshit reason would really hurt west's claim of being better. Even the Russia's sanctions is going really badly for Europe and west is not in a good time to extend their arms further. Also China is developing its own airplane and now is definitely not a great time to encourage other countries which don't have good relation with west.
Point is if Air India strolled into Russia with restricted engine components, there would be consequences. Everyone at GE involved would be subject to criminal investigation. Everyone's banking relationships would be in jeopardy.
Sanctions indirectly enforce themselves. Air India could get a waiver, but that takes time, time during which that plane would be stranded and unproductive. Those were the stakes here. Because nobody is stupid enough to stick their finger to U.S. sanctions and rely on the “West’s claim of being better.”
And just if you don't know, India is not part of US Russia sanctions and trades with both.
It's not a political decision. It's current law. What Air India would have needed would have been a political decision, a waiver, to an understandable but unforeseen situation.
New Delhi would be fine asking for forgiveness if this were military plane. But Air India, a private company, has to deal with other private companies. Do you think Air India's banks want to bet their livelihoods on an ex post facto waiver? Even if (read: when) Air India is given a waiver, the American wire officer who processed their transactions after a known sanctions violation would be in personal jeopardy, legally, professionally and possibly criminally. Same for every engineer who provided support, every courier who knowingly transported parts.
> what has it to do with GE? The equipment belongs to Air India in India.
The engine on that 777 is made by GE. It has to comply with U.S. law. You don't want every part and service contract with GE and Boeing and who knows who else being held up while you get forgiveness.
Indian policy is to do trade with Russia and that is all that matters here.
You do realize engines like this require continuous maintenance, access to parts etc? They couldn't safely operate their fleet for very long without western companies.
Risking all of that just so that they wouldn't have to delay the repairs for a few weeks or even months would make zero sense.
> Indian policy is to do trade with Russia and that is all that matters here.
Air India operates zero Russian airplanes and it's fleet is exclusively made up from Airbus and Boeing jets. There are zero practical reasons for them to want to move away from that now.
Nor legally. Overfly regulations generally require minimum standards be met. This is why Iranian and Russian jets are largely confined to domestic service.
Of course there is. The Trading With The Enemy Act of 1917, together with a series of E. O.s, namely, 14024 and 14068, as implemented last June [1]. Everyone knew the rules they were playing by going into this.
Jeopardizing what? There are no real alternatives to Airbus and Boeing and won't be for years.
Also at the end it's a signal aircraft which will be fixed and back in service even if might take a few weeks or even months than it would ussually. No need to blow this out of proportion.
Importing the same amount or even much lower amounts of oil/gas at much higher prices would result in higher overall imports yes.
Also Russian a lot natural resource exports were/are exempt from sanctions due to practical reasons so what are you trying to say?
> India and China haven't even agreed to sanction ever.
Yet their companies will at least more or less outwardly comply with them because they want to continue doing business with western companies. It makes zero sense for Air India to ship GE engines to Russia without getting an exemption.
All of that is completely irrelevant of course since the airplane in question is already back in India...
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/14/air-india-places-orders-for-...
See my other comment [1]. Nobody thinks the U.S. will permanently stick Air India with sanctions. But everyone knows there is a gray area during which, if you're an American or do business with America, particularly if you are in a regulated field, you do not want to be the banker or engineer who kept doing business with an entity that just publicly violated sanctions.
And both sides' politicians would love this. Private parties bear the cost. New Delhi can rail on American imperialism, the immorality of sanctions and the pragmatism of its geopolitical strategy. Washington can talk up how it pragmatically exempted India while throwing pot shots at Russia's isolation. It's a manufactured crisis with a simple solution whose costs are borne by a third party: that's catnip to electeds.
Please enlighten everyone: in what way is an Indian entity paying their own engineers to use their own parts to fix their own aircraft “violating sanctions”? Please give as much detail as possible.
These products are subjext to reëxport controls—that’s what sanctions bite with. Air India transporting a controlled engine component into Russia violates those June 2022 sanctions. (It’s the same reason e.g. Germany can block the reëxport of its tanks, or Russia can tell India it’s not allowed to donate its new Su’s to the USAF.) It’s similar to if Air India starts importing American computer components and reëxporting them to North Korea; it would be blocked from accessing American and allied services. That’s the entire point of sanctions.
This is clearly-established law and precedent that is easily available from any competent attorney in India familiar with export/import of restricted goods.
It wasn’t a bad place to spend a few weeks but you would definitely get the occasional reminder that hey, this isn’t Europe anymore, Dorothy.
If this shocks you, you might want to avoid visiting San Francisco. I hate pulling out this tired trope, but it felt actually appropriate here.
Haven’t been to Kyiv for a few months but immigration was fine, shops restaurants were open, people were normal. Sure you might get an air raid, but then in the US you might get shot
Welcome to (certain parts of) Berlin, SF, NYC and scores of other places. Where sometimes even less pleasant things are to be seen. The fact that nobody does anything doesn't mean they find it to be "perfectly normal". Rather they are horrified, or simply inured -- and don't dare get involved for obvious reasons.
If anything such occurrences are far less common in Kyiv than in the above 3 places.
- Bring some cash and exchange it here.
- Open a bank account here and transfer money there (yes, there are some ways).
- Bring crypto wallet keys along and use crypto ATMs.
- Exchange through a friend/relative with accounts on both sides of the iron curtain.
I suspect the ATMs will give you a worse exchange rate than what you'd get on a P2P exchange online.
Although I was initially a bit surprised, it makes sense. I mean, I suppose there are plenty of Russians in America living a totally normal life.
Yep, and vice-versa.
> For instance, when a Norwegian 737-8 MAX diverted to Shiraz, Iran in December 2018, the aircraft sat on the ground in Iran for 70 days. Much of that time was spent arranging an export license for a CFM LEAP1-B engine for the stricken aircraft.
“It’s gonna be stuck there for some time” doesn’t appear to be a comical understanding of the situation.
It's also pretty funny that you're referring to a self-imposed problem by the West as an example for an issue with the non-West.
Are we talking about the same Russia that is engaged in a genocide against it's neighbour? The one that purposefully destroys civilian infrastructure to cause death and suffering? Kidnaps children? Did multiple false flag operations against it's own civilians? Murders journalists and dissidents, even abroad, in brutal ways, with nerve agents and radioactive materials? That Russia, right? Taking civilians from an airliner hostage wouldn't even get close to the top 10 of their state organised terror acts in the past 2 years...
Russia is a terrorist state, run by war criminals that has engaged in genocide, horrific human rights abuses, where rule of law doesn't matter. Yes, them kidnapping civilians isn't out of the question because they literally kidnap children en masse from the neighbour they've invaded.
> Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft
It's not like they didn't do that after the beginning of the war, so it wasn't a crazy thing to be fearful of Russia pulling off. What made that unlikely was the fact that it's an Indian airliner; if it was an American one, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did decide to steal it.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-m...
> they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed
Except for all those listed in the article, such as a full engine replacement being hard to do at an airport not equipped for it, the engine being very hard to ship because it only fits on 2 plane models, with very few operators available, etc. Just because the repairs turned out to be quick doesn't mean that a full engine replacement wouldn't have been a significant multi-week undertaking.
Oh dear.
Anyone remember Guantánamo? Tuskegee? The Rwandan genocide?
Once that's out of the way and we've cleared that indeed Russia is a terrorist state committing a genocide, we can also discuss the now lone superpower. The US indeed has committed a lot of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are more relevant than the Tuskagee experiments which ended 50 years ago. However the US hasn't actually perpetrated a genocide, unlike Russia which is actively engaged in one as a matter of state policy. The Rwandan genocide, complicit as the US and other countries such as France and Belgium may be, was perpetrated and organised by Rwandans against other Rwandans.
Comparing the two is useful to an extent, but excusing Russia's actions with "well the US does something vaguely similar on a small scale, so that's all fine" is bullshit. Also, comparing rule of law in Russia vs US is.. laughable. Feel free to share examples of dissidents being murdered brutally in broad daylight recently with no consequences.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-history-riddled-with-ma...
Apart from the genocide against Native Americans, the rest are just highly deadly wars with civilian casualties. In no other scenario was the goal of American intervention/occupation/invasion to annihilate a group of people, which is a necessary qualifier from the Genocide convention for something to be considered a genocide:
> In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such
Source: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Which is why the Armenian Genocide is a genocide. The Turkish government, mostly led by some of the most incompetent people to walk this planet, blamed Armenians for their own incompetence, and ordered and enticed forced marches, massacres, etc. Nothing new for the barbaric Ottoman regime, after all this was done numerous times against practically all peoples occupied by the Ottomans, only this time ot was on such a scale that most Armenians were murdered (estimates vary, between 800,000 and 1.5 million, out of a pre-war population of between 1.1 and 2.1 million people).
Hence why I said: "the logistical challenges if it had required an engine change are certainly real, though."
It's still the case that all of those logistical challenges were considered when Air India decided to continue flying over Russia, it's not some kind of movie-plot "oh shit" moment when a diversion inevitably happens.
Russia has been known to imprison Western civilians on trumped-up drug charges, then exchange them for hardcore criminals imprisoned in the US or elsewhere (the recent exchange of Brittney Griner, a basketball player arrested for having a bit of cannabis oil, for Viktor Bout, an arms dealer nicknamed the "Merchant of Death", comes to mind).
> Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft
Other countries are impounding Russians' yachts, I can see where the Russian government would see it as reasonable to impound planes in retaliation.
So all of this speculation is outdated.
They stripped everything out of the aircraft - seats, galleys, everything. Then put in just enough gas to hop over the hedges to Heathrow. They barely made it.
[1] The pilot was cashiered.
"As a precaution, the main A40 trunk road, which runs past the bottom of the easterly end of the runway at Northolt, was closed to traffic until the Boeing 707 had taken off. However, much lighter without much of its interior, the aircraft was airborne quickly off the Northolt runway and successfully landed at Heathrow a few minutes later."
> Cashiering (or degradation ceremony), generally within military forces, is a ritual dismissal of an individual from some position of responsibility for a breach of discipline.
I'm glad we have GPS now!
Even with GPS, stuff like this still happens: https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-dreamlifter-wrong-airpor...
What happened isn't so surprising if you check the location of the air base in relation to the airport
They bussed off the passengers (and luggage), took out the seats, put on enough fuel to reach Grand Junction, and managed to get it airborne.
This was a big enough deal in Hanksville that they closed school so that all the kids could come down and see the big plane.
Details are slightly unreliable - my parents told me about it when I was a kid; I have no independent information.
You just reminded me of the book, Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel.
Thanks for that!
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2000/oct/06/american-airlines-f...
[1] https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-dreamlifter-wrong-airpor...
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2018/0521/965058-mexican-lands-p...
And these are London streets, not American ones, so it might still not fit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/eerQMHDv2gXLdu5D7?g_st=ic
Adding source, on Flightradar24 itself (same as the article): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vt-alh
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/engine-issue-resolve...
Edit: Answered my own question. The runway is barely long enough for 777 with two working engines.
The asymmetric thrust requires a long, careful takeoff roll until the plane has enough rudder authority to keep it straight.
Edit: Numbers
Empty operating weight: 134,800 kg (297,300 lb)
Maximum Takeoff Weight(MTOW): 247,200 kg (545,000 lb)
The empty operating weight includes everything needed to fly (including crew) minus useable fuel. So the only additional weight need is fuel.
it requires both a test pilot
https://www.infinidim.org/b777-engine-failure-on-takeoff-efa...
The biggest problem were not delivering repairs and taking off the plane but to house 200+ foreign people at once in a very remote Siberian town (population: 95,982).
https://news.sky.com/story/us-bound-passenger-plane-stranded...
Edit: The fan of a 777 engine is 10in wider than a 747-8. According to a chart from https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/21375/what-is-t..., the ground clearance is 3-5 inches. Which is a bit short of 10 inches. :)
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-5-engines/
The video above mentions that the Antonov An 225 was the only aircraft large enough to carry the engine referenced in the hold (versus a pod ferry position). That aircraft was destroyed in the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War as of February 2022.
The only real question is whether they'd be willing to take the risk and the appropriate people are willing to sign off on it.
Sure, it's not actually designed to go from standstill to V1 on a single engine, but it shouldn't have any problems. It's just going to increase the takeoff roll slightly (or decrease the maximum takeoff weight)
Looks like the plane was out of route right from the beginning?
Why not turn around from where it took off?
Is there an overlay somewhere?
And why would it drive all the way to a deserted airbase with no qualified personal to fix it?
Air India has always had a YOLO attitude to air traffic control. I'm somewhat surprised America doesn't restrict inbound and outbound flights from overflying Russia.
That would make a lot of non-stops not viable. Russia is gigantic.
Between America and whom? The only places I'm imagining going nonviable are Central Asia. (China Airlines' New York <> Taipei is a 16-hour flight and doesn't overfly Russia.)
(It probably could be viable direct with limited passengers/cargo, but financially unviable).
https://onemileatatime.com/news/air-canada-london-mumbai-fli...
But if you fly this route on Air India, it's still non-stop, utilizing Russian airspace: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC188/history/20230610/...
UA867: https://www.flightera.net/en/flight/United+Airlines-San+Fran...
It would need quite a diversion to avoid russian airspace: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sfo-del
Newark-Mumbai by United also cancelled: https://www.indianeagle.com/travelbeats/united-airlines-susp...
sfo-cts-del is 9.9% longer according to that website, that doesn't seem that much especially if its just cruising.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sfo-Cts-del&MS=wls&DU=nm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner
Add some winds, takeoffs/landings in the “wrong direction”, weather diversions and it probably needs a tech stop in at least one direction to do that routing. Maybe both.
777-200LR could do it easily, but United doesn’t operate any, and few others do
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_777_orders_an...
Well, of course the Air India plane where this discussion started was one of those 777s
What do you mean by this? Do you have some examples in mind. Also, the airline is a different entity now from a few years back.
> I'm somewhat surprised America doesn't restrict inbound and outbound flights from overflying Russia.
I am sure they would have but this might have been a concession few governments might have secured to keep flights economically viable.
AI 121 came to mind [1]. I've also been on domestic Air India flights where e.g. the plane never bothered leveling off. We just flew from Bombay to Delhi at a 30-degree angle.
[1] https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2323889-air-india-flight-121
You mean a misunderstanding arising from a glitch in the app? https://twitter.com/QuebecTango/status/1496835604503576582
> We just flew from Bombay to Delhi at a 30-degree angle.
I didn't realise Avatar was commercially operational already. Someone should update the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(spacecraft)
Air India has plenty of real issues worth criticising. There's no need to make up plainly nonsensical stuff.
Sometimes it's easier/cheaper to avoid a country's airspace through a slight diversion than pay the overfly costs. Some country's ATC's can be kinda hostile/annoying/unprofessional/expensive. (I've heard China likes surprise military airspace restrictions that make flight planning annoying).
Plenty of routes that don't take shortest path for geo-political & artificial cost reasons (but you don't hear climate change activists raising issues with that much).