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Comment by thriftwy | Hacker News Reader

I wonder how you are supposed to assimilate the immigrants when they are more than 40% of all students, not to mention 70 to 90%.

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You do not. From a cultural standpoint the only visible trend I have ever seen is German kids picking up migrant trends.

Of course after over a decade most children come out of it with enough German. But that is integration only on the thinnest level imaginable.

I went to school with children of Italian, Portuguese, Turkish and Greek backgrounds (mostly the parent generation migrated) and none of them were distinguishable in terms of "broad" culture from those whose grandparents were born in Germany. Not sure what kind of "migrant trends" you are talking about. The most prevalent cultural influence in my school time was probably MTV and the local "Landjugend" and in my sons' kindergarten and primary school its (sadly) Paw Patrol.

Yes, some very specific school districts in urban centers are predominantly migrant and there are cultural ramifications to that. But that is a fraction of German schools.

>Not sure what kind of "migrant trends" you are talking about

I don't know where you live, but here Arabic and Turkish Music (especially "rap" performed by these groups), attitudes and even language (I regularly hear turkish/arabic slang) clearly have a large influence outside of their respective migrant cultures.

>I went to school with children of Italian, Portuguese, Turkish and Greek backgrounds (mostly the parent generation migrated) and none of them were distinguishable in terms of "broad" culture from those whose grandparents were born in Germany.

I had a simmilar experience in my school. But we also had a lower tier school right next to us where that clearly was not the case. And there Turkish/Arabic influence was very clearly greater than any German one.

Well, there is a bias there. If you would ask the parents of the migrant kids you would get a statement that they lost 80% of their culture. A mixture is to be expected and is a necessity for human and society evolvement.

This clearly is not "integration". There is a delusional fantasy, by all political sides, going on here that migrants will "integrate", like what actually did happen with sub 1% imkigratnt groups.

Why would these groups, which locally easily are a third of the population, if not the majority, want to integrate? German "culture" is literally just doing 8-5 work. Of course they are going to assert their native cultures.

>A mixture is to be expected and is a necessity for human and society evolvement.

A mixture of what? Speaking German + fundamental Islam + LGBT rights + driving a BMW + putting Gyros into bread. Is that "integration"? Completely laughable to be honest. These migrants group are doing what all otuer groups would do, forming their own parallel society, with their own shops, their own spaces and asserting it in the face of integrationist pressure.

"Outer groups," "native culture," "fundamental islam + LGBTQ rights," "These migrants," … The 1930s called, they want their xenophobic language back!

What kind of nonsense response is that? Why do you think I am literally hitler because I use the most normal words imaginable and repeat what migrants will tell you about their experience.

Maybe there is a large cultural gap here, but I grew up in a "worse" part of town with lots of migrants around. Maybe you should try to do the same before calling everyone a nazi because they dare to point out what these people say they want?

And here someone won the Godwin award again. That was fast.

Fascinating how your adversary is having a well mannered argument and you derail it to call him a nazi. Takes one to know one, I think.

I said his use of language is reminiscent of the way language was used in the 1930s, I didn't call him a Nazi. For what it's worth, the Nazis certainly don't have a monopoly of using language in this kind of way (creating an "us" vs. "them" narrative), it is quite common with populists all throughout history and certainly not confined exclusively to one particular political spectrum. But every time someone tries to stylize two very complex groups into two simple opposing forces, it should really ring alarm bells.

You are using language that is designed to (artificially) create an us vs. them scenario. You are creating two groups, "Germans" on the one side, "migrants" on the other. These are rhetorical devices that have been used throughout history, but most prominently during Nazi rule, to create a social climate and justification for discrimination and ultimately violence targeted at minorities.

In reality, there is neither something like "German culture," nor something that can be defined as "migrant culture". Migration and cross-influencing of languages and cultures is a fundamental feature of human history and every time someone gets out the tropes that you are using, what they are really saying is "I want society to work the way I prefer" instead of going through the trouble of trying to understand what is happening and participating in working out a solution to actual problems.

I think it is quite hilarious to see how utterly delusional people are about the subject of migration. Probably because they never had the experience of growing up in a place where a significant population were migrants and consequently having very little interactions with them or migrant classmates, friends, colleagues.

Ask them how they feel about "us versus them". They will laugh at you if you tell them that they have no culture. They have a culture and they intend to protect it, of course.

But at least you seem to agree that integration is a complete fantasy.

The point is that you are creating an image of a society fundamentally split into "natives" and "migrants" – two distinct groups that in this telling are incompatible. I am sorry about the seemingly bad experiences you've had growing up, if I understand you correctly. But they have little to do with the other people in your environment being migrants or of migratory background. You'll find similar dynamics even in contexts where migration is not prevalent but other social problems exist.

Your experience is certainly real and worth to be taken seriously, but it reflects an outlier and not a fundamental problem with society in Germany. The vast majority of interactions between "immigrants" and the rest of the population are positive and productive for everyone involved, especially when you take into account that the concept of a German society is not that old to begin with and virtually every family has some form of migratory history. "Migration" as the root cause of social problems does not make any sense because it always presumes that there is something "different" about people from other places. And as someone who has been to plenty of places that most people in Germany would describe as "different," I think that's just not true. People are mostly the same everywhere and want basically the same things. "Culture" in terms of personal and collective experience certainly matters a great deal to many people, but it only becomes exclusionary if people feel challenged by the context they are living in and their culture/religion/caste/whatever provides a convenient narrative to fall back on.

Regarding 'their' culture in their shops I recently came to the conclusion that large parts of them tend offer sloppy services for high prices with cheap stuff.

That may not be the case for everyone, and also depend on how they perceive you, so they vary the prices according to their 'culture'.

TBH they can all fuck off, I won't miss them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

It say in schools “where” 70 to 90 percent have immigrant background. I don’t think it means that portion of all students everywhere on average have immigration backgrounds.

There doesn't seem to be accurate data available, but surveys show it's around 39%. [1]

I wouldn't be surprised if the German government doesn't collect reliable data on purpose.

Original text:

> Wie viele Schüler in Deutschland einen "Migrationshintergrund" haben, ist nicht ohne Weiteres zu beantworten. Denn die Datenlage ist lückenhaft und die Ergebnisse sind häufig nicht miteinander vergleichbar.

> Laut Mikrozensus hatte 2021 über ein Drittel (rund 39 Prozent) der Schüler*innen an allgemeinbildenden und beruflichen Schulen in Deutschland einen Migrationshintergrund. Die Daten des Mikrozensus basieren jedoch nicht auf der amtlichen Schulstatistik, sondern auf einer repräsentativen Befragung von rund 810.000 Personen. Die Ergebnisse werden hochgerechnet.

English translation through Google:

> How many schoolchildren in Germany have a "migrant background" cannot be answered without further ado. The data situation is incomplete and the results are often not comparable with one another.

> According to the 2021 microcensus, more than a third (around 39 percent) of students at general and vocational schools in Germany had a migration background. However, the microcensus data is not based on the official school statistics, but on a representative survey of around 810,000 people. The results are extrapolated.

[1] https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/schule.html

That’s for a fairly broad definition of “migration background”. Everyone who wasn’t born a German citizen or has at least one parent who wasn’t a German citizen at their birth qualifies (“Wer die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit nicht durch Geburt besitzt oder mindestens einen Elternteil hat, bei dem das der Fall ist, hat einen "Migrationshintergrund".”)

For example, Angela Merkel’s mother was born in Danzig in 1928. That wasn’t part of Germany at the time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig), so chances are she wasn’t born with German citizenship. If so, Angela Merkel has a migration background according to that definition.

For primary school kids, I would guess many of them are children of people who have lived and worked in Germany for decades.

"migrant background" in German political discourse is mostly defined as "at least one parent was not born with German citizenship". That is incredibly broad and covers both children of Syrian refugees who arrived last year, as well as children of a English-German couple or the children of a third-generation Turkish immigrant who has retained his Turkish citizenship but has lived in Germany his whole life. For the sake of this debate (how many children have adequate knowledge of the German language) it is essentially meaningless.

The problem is having an immigration background in Germany doesn’t not mean the students don’t speak German [1]. Even if their parents came from Turkey or Russia 50 years ago, they are classified as such. It also doesn’t explain the deficiencies in math. While the issue is real, I think either Meidinger or the journalist is pulling a fast one here.

[1] Linked in the same article: https://www.dw.com/en/german-is-the-most-spoken-language-in-...?

Every school class in Germany has now at least 1-2 kids with migration background. Syrian, Ukraine, etc. So overall every class is affected (because the teacher needs to allocate more focus on them). Is that bad? Maybe, but what do you expect if you have migration and no increase in teacher capacity. The way to solve it is get more teacher capacity.

While what you mention (capacity) is an absolutely important issue, I am skeptical of the effect that those 1-2 kids could have had on the students' performance on a national level so suddenly. Immigration is not a new phenomenon here. I guess there could be more to it. Like, for example, Covid lockdowns, which were not implemented the same way (severity) for schools among European nations. That could also have had a big effect on students' performance, and even more on the performance of those 1-2 immigrant kids. What I am saying is the excuse that the authorities are giving is not convincing me TBH and the wording they choose makes me feel even more skeptical. My 2 cents.

You won't and that is the point. A population without social cohesion is easily governed.

That's not true at all. Germany is easily governed already.

Indeed. The social cohesion in Germany was bad to begin with. This is what happens when you are occupied territory for more than 70 years. But mass immigration destroys the last glimmer of hope for self governance.

None of that makes any sense. Having Western military bases in Germany harms social cohesion? What? Social cohesion in Germany is high anyway. Nothing you say makes any sense, the conclusions and reasoning are both wrong. You're not a serious person. Also people like you normally argue that more immigrants means more disorder, so I am really not convinced your stance is even remotely coherent.

Occupying forces are in control of the state media obviously. But since their influence on people blow 70 years of age is going to zero fast more migrants are needed.

And having experienced mass migration first hand I can assure you: more immigrants means more disorder, more violence, more cost for social net, less quality of life and lower wages across the board. My experience with migrants is 100% universally bad. And I'm absolutely serious about that.

Ah yes, obviously, of course.

> more immigrants means more disorder, more violence, more cost for social net,

Strange, you literally just insisted immigration would make Germany easier to govern. Difficult to take you seriously.

"divide et impera" is not exactly a new concept. Maybe you should brush up your greek philosophy.

Lol

Looking at France, with its assortment of violent movements and protests and ever growing ethnic plurality ... your theory seems to have some flaws.

Obviously not. Thanks to "plurality" people are occupied with fighting each other instead for themselves against rulers that repeatedly act against their interests.

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