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Comment by AussieWog93 | Hacker News Reader

Recently I was reading that in Europe, most cars sold don't even have automatic transmission, yet the drivers there are much safer than than people in the US or Australia.

There was some speculation that because they shift gears manually, they have to pay more attention to the road and can't do things like drink coffees while driving. They also enjoy driving a lot more than we do.

I wonder if other technology would have a similar effect of ultimately making driving less safe and enjoyable. I've never driven a super-modern car, but I do know that I zone out a bit when cruise control is on...

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After a recent 3 week driving trip through Europe, I can anecdotally back this up. It’s not even the manual transmission, but also the much smaller roads with no shoulder where at times you meet a car, have to slam on the brakes, and decide in the moment whether you or the other car will back up to a turn out. You have to pay constant attention and there’s little room for looking at phones, eating, etc. In the US we have such large roads and shoulders that you can zone out and are more easily tempted to take your eyes off the road.

This is backed by infrastructure studies. It's called traffic calming and it's done on purpose in places with advanced infrastructure such as the Netherlands.

In the same vein, I encourage neighbors to park their cars on the street rather than in their garage or driveway so the neighborhood street becomes narrower for traffic due to a row of parked cars on each side of the street. Works better than posted speed limit.

That's just a bad idea. Cars passing through the street won't see the kids and kids won't see the cars.

It is kind of a moot point when so many cars in the USA end up crunching people on the sidewalk or their own driveway...where the kids usually are.

I'd rather have one of those people who drive distracted crash into my parked car than on my lawn.

Demonstrably incorrect on my street, which has hotly contested on-street parking that narrows the roadway to a single lane. Cars have to stop and reverse into parking spaces to pass each other. Yet children play ball games in the street, and stop to move out of the way of the cars, with the cars barely needing to brake.

Children are not mindless suicide machines; they learn at a tremendous rate from their environment. The children you see around you might not survive on my street, but that's because they haven't lived there for all of their lives.

Lead footing is a phenomenon exclusive to automatics. Basically, you are on a 35mph road maybe, you lead foot some, the car shifts from third to the overdrive gear, now you are going like 45 or 50mph with the engine barely making any noise, you thinking this is just fine. On a manual, you'd know if you were in third and went to 50mph—the engine would be howling at another couple thousand rpm depending on the car. Going into your overdrive gear would require a conscious effort to shift into it.

I think it’s a lot of factors because when driving an automatic ‘99 Honda Accord, it’s pretty obvious when you’re not driving 35mph anymore.

That said, after driving the same vehicle for a while, at least for me, I can usually guess how fast I’m going.

That‘s just silly - I drive my (manually shifted) car basically solely in the highest gear in non-city traffic and have the same effect. Nothing to do with automatic, but with powerful cars.

The driver test is super hard and expensive in France. Never got it for this reason even after spending 1k euro on it. Came to the US and got the driver license in a week for like 200$ including lessons lol

> Never got it for this reason even after spending 1k euro on it.

Really? In order to pass the test you have to pass the theory test which is just about knowing the rules of the road. Yes many experienced drivers wouldn't always pass it first time, especially when it has been a long time they got their license and laws have changed but you get it quite easily by just ready the "rulebook" and do trial tests at your driving schools until you pass tests. It is no different than passing any easy test as a student.

As for the practice, you get something like mandatory 20 to 30hours with an instructor. And most of it is just about applying the rules you already know by having passed the test above. It takes less than a handful of hours to master clutch and gearbox, same for parallel parking, rest is applying the priority rules and showing the instructor...and then the examiner that you apply them and give a quick look in all directions and your blind zone whenever you change lane or direction. It is more about feeling comfortable and confident on the car than learning really.

Me and a bunch of friends failed the test the first time, and then I had to wait 6 months to pass it again. If you try to pass it without going through a school it’s the same wait time.

The booklet is also pretty big, and the trial tests are pretty hard with hard questions.

In the US I just went there and passed it on the spot. Super easy. No way anyone with half a brain could fail it. The code book is so small, there are barely any rules compared to France. Worse than that you’re barely supervised. Some lady yelled “no phones allowed” to a girl passing the test on the computer with her family around her lol.

Then I just drove with my gf who already had the driver license (legal in the US). Took 2 hours of lessons. 2 weeks later I was passing the driving test. Super easy as well.

> There was some speculation that because they shift gears manually, they have to pay more attention to the road and can't do things like drink coffees while driving.

I am highly skeptical of this. I am sure auto insurers in the US have looked at the statistics, and if it were true, they would be charging higher premiums for automatics than manuals.

There could be a shortage of data to control for obvious things like disproportionately many sports cars having manual transmissions.

I doubt it. There are so many vehicles, especially historically, from Toyota Tacomas, Jeep Wranglers, Honda Civics, to yes, Porsche 911s that are available with both AT and MT. Considering the number of vehicles insured in the US, and the fact that you can do paired comparisons like this, if there is a meaningful difference, insurers would see it.

edit: link from State Farm, a large US insurer. https://www.statefarm.com/simple-insights/auto-and-vehicles/....

Studies haven't really shown which transmission type is safer. Automatic and CVT transmissions do allow you to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, while manual transmissions may require more attentive driving. Your driving habits will play a large role in your safety. Safety features available for both automatic and manual vehicles can make a difference, too.

I’m still skeptical there’s enough data to distinguish from the obvious selection effects. The difference in safety between manual and automatic 911s probably tells you essentially nothing about whether a random driver would be safer driving a random automatic or a random manual.

It is hard to distinguish indeed, since there is no noticeable difference.

Jokes aside, as a data scientist of a long career, I don’t share your skepticism. It would be a hilariously easy task to extract this information from the data with the variables involved and the records insurance companies are able to keep.

As an expat from Germany I also highly doubt this.

As an American who drove a manual car in Chicago for a few years, trust me, there are ways to eat and drink while rowing your own gears.

Most European countries have far higher barriers to entry for driver's licenses compared to the USA. A German driver's license costs around $2000 to obtain. I spent $2000 on my first car (in 2018). Combine high financial barrier with competent public transit, and people who would be bad drivers just don't drive at all.

UK here. I have driven both autos and manual cars.

It barely takes any mental energy to drive manual. After you learn it it's just not a big deal.

I drink coffee whilst driving.

Main difference is that American roads are big, grid layout, traffic light to runway to traffic light style things. UK roads weave inbetween buildings. It requires more attention.

> in Europe, most cars sold don't even have automatic transmission

Something like 60% to 80% of new cars in European countries are now sold with automatic transmission. And this figure is growing year to year. It will take a decade or two for the old manual cars to get replaced, though.

This is a very recent phenomenon driven by hybridization and fuel regulation (auto get better mileage because they have more gear). But you are right, they sell a lot more auto nowaday than they used to.

I'm from EU, and i've been driving both manual and automatic transmission. I can testify that auto transmission is safer, your hands are 100% at the steering wheel. Most people cannot turn and change gear at the same time.

I've also spend quite a bit time in US driving. EU is safer as narrower streets/lanes and smaller number of lanes (on highways), closer parked cars and pedestrians/bicycles forces you to pay much more attention.

> Most people cannot turn and change gear at the same time.

That's just not true. If you cannot do that, you won't get your driver's license in most countries.

Sweden has very strict tests for the drivers license, and afaik you can easily pass those without ever turning (more than a fairly small bit) and changing the gear at the same time. With the planning you are supposed to learn this is kind of a natural consequence.

There a loads of cars with automatic transmission in Europe - especially the newer, medium to premium level cars. But it definitely isn‘t as prevalent as in the US.

It is no problem at all to drink coffee or even eat while driving a manual car, so no idea where this comes from ;)

Hehe that has nothing to do with having to watch the road because of stick shifting, that's the result of road safety design and setting very high demands on driver's permit. Where I'm from, it takes an average of 40 hours of driving lessons in which they drill you an driving safely, before you're able to pass the driver's license exam.

I'm sure it has more to do with the fact that roads are well-designed in Europe. While in the US it's not at all uncommon to have 4-6 lane roads in front of houses meaning drivers have to watch every house for a possible car pulling out of their driveway.

Americans should look outward with humility to policies which are proven to be effective. However, that may be bridge too far, given the inward looking hubris which has bedeviled road safety in America.

Hmmm, being from Europe and having driven on a holiday in the US, I'd say that people are more careful and respect rules better in the US than in Europe (certainly than Southern Europe, but even in parts of the North). Driving in US reminded me of driving in the UK.

Of course, US is a big country and my perception could be not very typical. Extrapolating from one data point is dangerous. It's like comparing driving in Naples and Amsterdam. Both are Europe, but the driving experience is fairly dissimilar.

I agree, driving in the US (only went to Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia) is more relaxed than in Germany and driving is less aggressive (yeah, there is the occasional nutjob in Atlanta). I like the four-way stops in the US, which forces people to communicate with each other.

> There was some speculation that because they shift gears manually, they have to pay more attention to the road and can't do things like drink coffees while driving.

I don't think its the gears, Its a combination of education. You have to pass a reasonably intense exam that requires coaching and also pass written test (unless you're Belgium, although that might have changed)

Moreover road laws tend to be much more strictly enforced. And not just parking laws.

> Recently I was reading that in Europe, most cars sold don't even have automatic transmission

I don't have any numbers regarding sales, but after renting 10s of cars in Europe during the last decade, it seems like they almost never have any manual cars anymore. In some countries, the entire fleet doesn't even include any manual ones anymore, I was told the last time I wanted to rent a car.

That’s true for rentals, they don’t want idiots screwing up their gearboxes. But, most cars on the streets are manuals, and you can’t get a driver’s license if you don’t know how to drive one.

> But, most cars on the streets are manuals

I don't know, anecdotally, all my friends (besides me, if I count as a friend of mine) drive automatic.

> and you can’t get a driver’s license if you don’t know how to drive one.

This is definitely not true in a bunch of countries, where you get to chose if to take a license for manual or automatic, where if you chose manual you can drive both and if you chose automatic, you obviously only get to drive automatic ones.

That is only true in poorer European countries with older, cheaper vehicle fleets. Most new car sales in more affluent countries no longer have manual transmissions. Modern automatics with 8+ forward gears or CVTs are more fuel efficient than manuals and easier to integrate as part of hybrid systems. And of course EV sales are growing rapidly: they don't use conventional transmissions at all.

New car sales - of course, but average car age even in Germany is around 10 years, it gets better only in wealthy small countries like Switzerland or Luxembourg.

I seriously doubt there’s a majority of automatic in Germans and French’s individual buyers. In fact most people that don’t rent cars don’t are very hesitant when required to drive one (if that ever happen)

You can get an automatic-only license in the UK AFAIK. But I don't know anybody that has that.

Even in Italy?

Just now I went to Avis.com , set pick up in Rome tomorrow, drop off in Rome the day after, and it said there are 6 types of cars available, and 5 of those types have manual transmissions.

I was really shocked in italy by the standard of driving. I was fully expecting full on car honking road rage in cities and uber fast driving on the motorways/highways.

Florence was incredibly calm, respectful and considerate driving. The Motorways everyone was doing just under the speed limit.

My italian friends said that its not the case in the north.

Apparently in Italy the speed limit is strictly enforced by automated cameras. If you go more than 5% over, you'll get a fine.

Wait... Does the US not have speed cameras?

Hmm, some states do. I didn't know that. The majority don't. California doesn't.

For the ones that do, I would guess they have more leniency than 5%, but I don't know.

Call them instead and ask. Multiple times they have manual available on the website, but after choosing it and going there to pick it up, it turns out they don't even have manuals in their fleet! Incredible

Europe would be in a depression if you couldn't drink coffee while driving stick, which you certainly can.

Completely anecdotal but I have never been the -source- of an accident in 30 years of driving. I have been hit 4 times by people being careless. I have always driven stick because I prefer the control of gearing and it kind of gives me something to do. If there comes a day I can't get a stick shift in a new car I will likely just keep fixing up older cars. The only I would replace that feeling if I can completely trust AI in cars to get me to work/destination without paying any attention at all.

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