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Comment by 0xbadcafebee | Hacker News Reader

Weird they don't stock UHT milk. I buy milk for 6 months and keep it in my pantry. I honestly can't tell the difference between modern UHT milk and mass-produced "fresh" milk (at 2% anyway). They could in theory ship in UHT milk instead of fresh, and stock enough extra to last a few more months in winter. It would be fun to make your own cheese down there as a hobby!

Eating by the seasons is also pretty interesting, I think. It forces you to expand your gastronomic horizons, explore the cuisine of different regional cultures. Some cultures don't use milk (and thus cheese or butter), some don't use much oil, some are vegetarian while some are nearly all meat. There's preservation by fermentation, by drying, by salting, by burying, by sealing in hardened butter. Some just eat a lot of soup. There's really an infinite number of dishes that express flavor, aroma and texture. If you ever get bored of your food, you can fix that.

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(creds: I was down to McMurdo as a researcher three times)

I suspect this has to do with space and weight constraints, and probably a touch of old-school procurement practices.

In the not-too-distant past, basically everything was flown to south pole station, so weight was at a premium. Powdered milk weights a lot less than UHT milk. Now they do a traverse to the pole with sleds and tractors, so weight is less of an issue, but volume might still be.

On top of that, procurement may be slow to change. If, in fact, weight is no longer a constraint, it might take years for procurement to change to include buying UHT milk.

Whoa I had no idea:

"To reduce the cost and increase the efficiency and reliability of transporting fuel and materials to South Pole Station, USAP established an overland traverse route from McMurdo Station to the South Pole. The traverse route is approximately 1,030 miles long and took several years of route-finding to prove and to mitigate areas with crevassing. This route is traveled by the South Pole Traverse (SPoT), a tractor train that hauls supplies and fuel using specialized sleds. SPoT tractors ascend more than 9,300 feet along the route to Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station. On average, it takes 52 days for the round trip from McMurdo to Pole and back."

https://www.southpole.aq/activities/station-logistics.html

Reading this I am picturing a blowing blizzard and massive tractors crawling over the barren landscape. INTENSE!

It's both intense and the most boring thing you could imagine. Picture day after day in a tractor traveling across a white landscape with another tractor in front and another tractor behind. I have only traveled such things by snowmobile, but I've befriended a few of the traverse folks in Greenland and Antarctica and they described it as "intensely exhilarating and extremely boring".

One of those classic stressful but boring jobs. Nothing around you for a thousand miles and it takes 50 days but at any point you could fall into a hole and die.

> ascend more than 9,300 feet

Ah yes, the Mountains of Madness pass.

(ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness)

I am perversely drawn to applying to this job, even though I know it is at least 500% more shitty than what I currently do.

My first thought was of the heavy swings used by Camp Century in the 1960s to haul construction materials and supplies to that project.

Except that MMS to AMS is seven times the distance.

And those SPoT tractor trains are averaging less than 3 kph / 2 mph for the round trip.

Even if UHT wouldn't bust mass budgets for the trip, it'd have to be protected from freezing. I don't know what the SPoT capabilities are for non-deep-freeze er ... warm chain transport, but that's an additional logistical hurdle.

Liquids could also pose stability issues in transit, from sloshing and the like.

I'm surprised you can't tell the difference between UHT and regular milk. I've tried a few brands in the UK, and there's a clear difference in tea / coffee, and it's particularly marked if you're drinking milk on its own.

Maybe the UK is lagging behind on UHT? Or I'm just buying the wrong brand.

In my personal experience I prefer the taste of UHT over traditional milk. I do however buy UHT from a local dairy.

I don't think the UK pasteurizes their milk to the same degree as North America. When I lived in the UK a pint of milk would last a week or so at most, but here in Canada it can last a month.

A month??? That’s definitely different.

UHT can easily last longer, it's shelf-stable (like literally on the shelf, no refrigeration needed) for months.

It's kinda wild it has as small of an impact on taste as it does. There's absolutely a difference, but it's surprisingly decent.

Oh, yeah, UHT can last for ages on the shelf. But I read it as referring to ordinary milk, in the refrigerator. "When I lived in the UK a pint of milk would last a week or so at most" sounds about right for that.

I personally think there's a big difference in taste, and I don't use UHT unless I really need to, but I'm sure that's partly just snobbery. You're right that it's perfectly OK for most purposes.

> here in Canada it can last a month.

This seems to depend on the container as well as the brand / market segment.

"low end" Nielson / Sealtest / Beatrice in bags seems to last < 2 weeks, whereas stuff like Natrel / Lactantia / Nielson Truetaste in cartons seems to last around a month.

Coming from drinking Irish milk, American milk already tastes like water. I can understand UHT being interchangeable if the baseline product is already bland.

American milk is very varied, sounds like you’re describing plastic gallon jug skim milk. If you want something a bit heartier, you can probably find creamline milk from a local farm.

Plastic litres jug milk sold in Ireland and the UK is what both commenters were comparing to the bland UHT milk.

Generally everything is available in the USA, but there are some surprising cases where the default product is of noticeable lower quality than the default in Europe.

Yeah, I’d say that the default in the US is generally cheaper and lower quality than the default in France, at least (no experience with Ireland).

If you spend the same amount in US as France (milk _is_ more expensive in France), is the quality the same? This comment only seems to confirm that cheaper milk will be worse.

Just with https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings... the price is within 10%.

I would say that default dairy and meat quality is roughly the same in France and Ireland. France has an edge on bread and pastries, while fruit and veg depends on the season but because so much more has to be shipped into Ireland, France gets the edge there too.

Not gonna comment on something as subjective as "quality", but just the taste of Coca Cola is noticeably different in the US vs at home in the EU.

High-fructose corn syrup is used as the sweetener in US Coca-Cola, rather than sugar.

I have been reliably informed that homogenized dairy products increase inflammation, and so I've made efforts to purchase creamline products instead. It's been revelatory, the difference and enjoyment I derive from it. I've found Straus Creamery makes amazing milk and yogurt products. Sometimes the milk comes in a glass half-gallon with a $2 deposit and I return them to the store. It's kind of a game to scoop out a big plug of cream from the narrow-mouth bottle! I guess you're supposed to mix it into coffee or tea, but I just kind of eat it. Yummy. Also, this kind of milk seems to keep for a good bit of time and it goes sour very, very slowly. The fresh scent is very delicate.

The yogurt is likewise amazing. You can get European or you can get Greek, if you don't want to pay for water. I get the plain stuff and again, it's got delicate flavors and odor, not the real tang of plain mass-produced yogurt. It's great to mix with my Muesli or just have a few medicinal tablespoons every day. In fact, it's difficult to stop once I've started spooning it out.

So i don't like homogenization because it destroys the mouth feel. So i am sympathetic to what you are saying.

However, what would the mechanism be for increased inflammation caused by homogenization? Do you have a source? I'm not saying you're not correct, but I'm more inclined to believe that there is a hidden, highly correlated variable at play.

Regardless of whether it has harmful effects or not, the fact is that homogenization is a wholly cosmetic operation; it's done because urban middle-class consumers were supposedly grossed out by solids floating in their milk and having to deal with the separate elements; it's done more or less in denial of the nature of milk in its natural state. There's no benefit, other than looks and feels, that homogenization offers, so why go through that process, expense, and bother if it's pointless, and may in fact be harmful? Just put the milk on the shelves. I feel that the cream is lovely and I'm thankful that it's separate so it can be handled appropriately.

Can you point to any documentation for the inflammation claim? A quick search didn't come up with much besides a study explicitly concluding the contrary: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09586...

Unfortunately, I circulate in woke bubbles where accurate medical information is actively contradicted, rewritten, and suppressed, so it's difficult for me to come by. I read it in a book, by authors with proven credentials, a good track record, and the book is replete with accurate yet suppressed information. I seldom bother searching for more of the same while I live in this backwater, because none of the search results or websites I find will deviate from the establishment narratives.

My stomach can't stand non homogenized milk. My father, on the other hand, loves it. Both of us were raised on it, only I had to be trained with the stick to drink it as a child.

Both of us are lactose intolerant. God knows why he likes it and I don't.

By non-homogenized I mean straight from the cow, still warm.

Are you just talking about normal milk in Ireland like this?

https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/en-IE/products/250005606

It's essentially identical to whole milk in the US. Nutritionally, compositionally, and flavor-wise.

I really can't imagine what you're talking about "tasting like water" unless you switched to skim milk or 2% in the US without realizing it?

Nope. American milk is pasteurized to a much higher temp. It lasts way longer. Irish goes off in days, US milk will last a month in the fridge. The extra pasteurization effects the taste and flavor.

I can't find any evidence to support that.

High-Temperature, Short-Time (HSTS) Pasteurization appears to be the standard in both Ireland [1] and the US [2] -- 71.7°C / 161°F for 15 seconds.

And I can tell you from personal experience that US milk goes bad in days as well, and has for decades. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it lasts a month in the fridge.

There are real differences in some foods between the US and Europe, e.g. American eggs are washed while European ones aren't. But fresh milk from the supermarket appears to be very much identical.

[1] https://ndc.ie/accordion/what-is-pasteurisation/

[2] https://www.usdairy.com/news-articles/why-is-milk-pasteurize...

I also looked into this and couldn't find any reliable information on what pasteurisation method was actually used in the UK.

I did find that US allows the use of hormones to increase milk production. Possibly that's a factor? But very difficult to tell.

I can say in my personal experience that fresh whole milk in Europe and the US tastes the same.

I really don't know why the original poster claimed otherwise. Maybe it's just an urban legend in parts of Europe or something.

I live in the US but grew up on a dairy farm in Ireland. In my personal experience the two milks are very different.

I think mikk is disgusting, but even the few times I've tried it in the USA it's obvious there's something wrong, lower quality, with it.

Perhaps it's the homogenization. Too aggressive perhaps?

Or maybe the comparatively poorer diet/aggressive production schedule?

Not that Im surprised though. The one thing I throughly dislike about the US (otherwise I love it) is the low foods standards. My local WF doesn't hold a candle to the quality of any grocery story in any country Ive lived in.

> mass-produced "fresh" milk (at 2% anyway)

At 2% I would not even bother considering this product as a milk.

I don't think you deserve all the down votes. I grew up in the U.S. in the 90's drinking healthy 1% or skim milk, then lived in Europe for two years drinking probably 3.5% or 4% and I tried going back to low fat milk and just can't. Whole milk all the way

The taste difference between 2% and skim is vast to me, but the difference between 2% and 3.5% seems much less noticeable. I regularly buy either 2% or whole for no particular reason other than my mood and they are interchangeable, at least to my taste buds. Skim milk is just milky water as far as I'm concerned.

That's angry American guys, probably *grin*

The other guy deleted his comment, but:

> it's 3.5%.

Thanks, I know, I say this about the taste and.. texture? At 2% it's just a watery fluid with a hint of milk for me. Back when I had milk in ny house I never bought anything with less than 3.5%, it was pointless for me.

2% is semi-skimmed. I can’t imagine confusing what with whole milk. Even 3.5% and 5% are quite different from each other.

Here (Ontario Canada) 5% is sold as light cream.

I agree that the difference is very noticeable, but it's still small enough that if OP was, say, a smoker they might not be able to notice it.

I live in the UK and always thought UHT milk was horrible. Recently I spent some time in Spain where all the milk is UHT (presumably because of the climate). At some point I realised I couldn't tell the difference, or at least it wasn't horrible. However, I was only consuming it heated up, like in a café con leche. Maybe that's why GP can't taste the difference?

Could be! I imagine I also notice the difference because I usually use UHT when I've run out of fresh milk. So the taste of coffee with fresh milk is pretty recent, vs travelling to another country.

I'm sure if I was using UHT every day I'd start to forget the difference.

I've tried UHT-processed milk in other countries and agree with you that the flavor is bizarre; usually the stuff is sold in TetraPak containers ime. But in the US, I can't tell the difference in flavor compared to non-UHT milk - Horizon was the first brand I noticed that sells mostly UHT milk products but nowadays, most grocery store-brand milk is UHT processed and it seems fine.

UHT milk doesn't generally make good cheese. It can be used to make some simple cheeses, like ricotta, but the high temperature changes the proteins enough to make most rennet-curdled cheeses fail.

https://cheesemaking.com/blogs/fun-along-the-whey/problems-w...

I've heard that you're more likely to have success with reconstituted dry milk than with UHT milk, but I haven't tried it.

> Eating by the seasons is also pretty interesting

Eating by the seasons is mundane and normal almost everywhere in the world.

Are you sure? Obesity, caused by eating processed food, is normal almost everywhere.

I doubt this. Obesity, caused by eating processed food is certainly happening in many places, but outside the USA I don't think it's normal

For certain definitions of "almost everywhere", I suppose? Care to define that more rigorously?

Most American city-dwellers I know wouldn't be aware of in-season food items, and wouldn't care either, because grocery stores stock almost everything year-round, so if you're meal planning based on what's in season it's nearly an afterthought, or superfluous. Growing food in the desert and importing it from the Southern Hemisphere really works to blur those lines for us. When I was preparing fresh meals at home, I considered eating what's in-season and paying attention, but that turned out to be a lot of pointless work.

Usual definition of "almost everywhere" does not include American cities but almost everywhere else.

> For certain definitions of "almost everywhere", I suppose? Care to define that more rigorously?

Good question. In my experience it's people who don't live in very developed countries plus people who shop at fresh food markets and countries that have a culture of not eating a lot of processed food e.g. in good part of Europe plus people who live in the countryside.

Let's say maybe 90% of human population.

> They could in theory ship in UHT milk instead of fresh, and stock enough extra to last a few more months in winter.

From a prior post [1], the no-flight period for the South pole is ~8 months, which really stretches the shelf life of UHT milk.

[1] https://brr.fyi/posts/last-flight-out

If you ignore the "best by" label on UHT milk, it can easily (safely) last 8 months. Especially if you store it at 32/33° F.

But more practically, there are different types of containers for UHT milk hermetically sealed to different extents. The more expensive kinds can last years. The US Military says 10 months for "normal" UHT milk stored under "normal" conditions [0]. The more expensive kinds can go much longer.

[0]: https://www.dla.mil/Troop-Support/Subsistence/Operational-ra...

I'll also add, most food products down there are "expired" already. When I was down there, it was often a challenge to find the oldest piece of food. I think we found 5 years + beyond the Best By date.

Best by dates for shelf stable/frozen food are often not safety related, so the antarctic program just charges forward with whatever they have.

UHT milk is terrible. As a brit, when I'm abroad I notice it immediately and it ruins an otherwise good cup of tea or coffee.

Milk freezes well. If they can afford to carry UHT milk all the way there, then you might as well take the fresh stuff and freeze it. Then it'll keep.

It freezes well but will spoil between 2-3 months. Maybe the much lower temperature would delay spoilage a bit more?

Most milk is ultrapasteurized and homogenized, making the difference between shelf stable milk pretty unnoticeable. Good cream-top milk is on another plane of reality.

It does taste significantly worse than fresh milk if you're not used to it, but definitely better than powdered milk.

And bad news is you can't really make decent cheese out of UHT milk, since the proteins have been denatured by the heat.

Really surprised you can't tell the difference between regular milk and UHT. I always assumed UHT was the inspiration for the Dog's Milk scene from Red Dwarf!

Anchor Full Cream Milk Powder. Powdered, but some of the best milk we've ever tasted. Great for lattes and mochas. IMHO much, much better than UHT. From New Zealand, so wouldn't even have to ship it very far. Expensive, though, ordering it in the U.S.--equivalent of 22 liters is over $50. Popular in Dominican Republic and think other parts of Lat. Am., so can probably get it cheaper.

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