This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...
I'm starting to feel like this whole notion that newbies can't come in and learn say React or modern JavaScript without having to go all the way back to that day in 1995 when they were hashing out the std lib for JavaScript and learn every thing about it before that "Hello World!" in React starts is becoming a gatekeeping method.
Either an epic troll or a great illustration :-D
Also it's 9am and I just woke up a bit ago.
You should try waking up at 6 AM
Let me spell it out: You should have woken up at 6 AM. The error would have been even funnier.
Nah I just think people here like to be liberal with their downvotes. "I didn't find that funny, downvote"
While I didn't get the joke, I still appreciate the attempt.
is nowhere even remotely close to
> parse an archaic binary format
The goalposts are on the other side of the field.
And most developers don't interact with hardware day to day, no. That's an exceptionally small set of people.
But also... everyone interacts with hardware whenever they use a a computer.
I think our difference of opinion has to do with abstraction layers here. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I work on web apps in java, python, and js, C++ desktop applications, and I operate a mars rover using various domain specific languages. Before switching to engineering I was a scientist and had to deal with data collection in the lab and field from all sorts of instrumentation which often required understanding low-level protocols and the movement of bits and bytes.
It's hard for me to imagine the world you're describing... sounds like it's full of script kiddies.
That said, there's also a point in here that's often underappreciated. There's a big difference between someone who learns today's modern tools from nothing and someone who has a good foundation learning today's modern tools. I think it's fundamentally one of approach. The former treats coding as a trade where you just need to learn a few tools. The latter treats it as a vocation where fundamentals allow you to learn whatever tools you need.
The one makes sense short-term - it gets people to paying work with modern tools in a minimum of time. The other makes sense long-term - it keeps people in paying work with modern tools for decades.
When you're just getting started and looking to get that first job with the life-changing six figure paycheck, all that farting around with fundamentals that the gatekeepers are talking about seems like an absolutely massive waste of time.
It is gatekeeping, but gatekeeping can and sometimes does serve a purpose that is not just the purely selfish.
Give them a codepen with modern React already bootstrapped so they can start just tinkering with it and changing things, man watch their EYES LIGHT UP at the possibilities... Every time I see this happen it takes me back to 1997 when I was first learning to build websites.
I've found it's also one that is very expensive as measured by instructional time and energy. I've also found it relatively ineffectual for teaching fundamentals.
I do not have to lecture someone about how they are unworthy and useless to know that understanding a bit of discrete mathematics, HTTP fundamentals, DNS, or relational algebra will make them better software engineers. There are absolutely people in this world who, when learning the glories of React with a codepen, will ask how things work several times and learn big-O notation... but there are far more who won't ask but would benefit from knowing anyway.
Do you think it's perhaps possible that people benefit from both a solid grasp of the often-boring fundamentals as well as feeling the joy of tinkering?
I don't think they were explicitly excluding the former, but rather saying it's important to get someone interested before they even become interested in learning the fundamentals.
This particular project comes from people who regard fundamentals as optional.
You're wearing your lack of CS knowledge like some kind of badge of honor. Of course you don't need deep CS knowledge to be a competent programmer. But almost undoubtedly you'll be a better programmer if you do know CS (I'm using binary here as a proxy for CS since I can't imagine having a deep knowledge of CS without knowing something fundamental like binary). How many times over those 25 years could a problem have been more efficiently solved (in programmer time or CPU time) if you had known about problem solving techniques (perhaps those related to binary knowledge for example) that you don't know from the world of CS? You'll never know... You may guess, but you'll never know what you don't know.
It's not gatekeeping to say that to give someone a complete education to be a software developer we should provide them a knowledge of binary. We can teach programming in an approachable fashion AND teach binary in an approachable fashion. We do it every day at my college.
(Yes, there are algorithms that use bitwise operations. They're technically expendable and it doesn't make you any less of a programmer not to know everything. Especially if you're using Python or JavaScript!)
Are you joking? Without understanding binary, you can't understand:
- Numeric types, which numbers can be represented exactly, their failure modes, etc.
- Bit-field flags, e.g. for enums
- IP address masks and other bitmasks
- Anything at all about modern cryptography
- Anything at all about data compression
- The various ways color is represented in images
- Any custom binary format, MIDI, USB, anything low-level at all
Honestly the list goes on and on. It's absolutely insane to me to hear people say that you can be a competent software engineer without understanding binary.
I'm guessing 80% don't even know bit-field flags and never have to use them, despite them being relatively simple. It would also take someone moderately capable at understanding math less than an hour to "learn." I learned them when I was 13 because I fucked around with MUD codebases, and I don't think I am special for it.
> we sure as shit aren't writing cryptographic algorithms because we're told to leave that one to the experts.
Shouldn't we all be striving to be an expert in something? If you're not working your way toward expertise, what are you doing? Why are the absolute fundamental basic building blocks for understanding how computers work and what programming languages are doing something that only "they" need to bother to learn?
And yes, I agree we should be an expert in something. Harping on binary seems like a waste of time, however. I would certainly like that people are interested enough in the field that they spend their time learning as much as they can about CS, but I'm under no illusion that I'm going to automatically be more productive or better as a software engineer because I know bit-fields.
PS: Thank you for downvoting me.
We're "harping" on it because it's so basic. There are a hundred equally basic things you should also know.
> Most of the problems software engineers are solving today are business problems defined by stakeholders in a business.
Even understanding the business problems usually requires a lot of fundamental knowledge in a wide variety of subjects. Being a good software engineer is hard.
And regardless of the problem, if the solution is going to be in code, you can't get away from binary. I actually don't think most programmers should be learning assembly language, because you can actually completely abstract away from it (and you should, because you don't know which assembly language you're programming for). But you can't abstract away from addition, the alphabet, binary, strings, algorithm complexity, and other basics.
PS: I didn't downvote you. I don't downvote people for disagreeing with me. I like disagreement, and besides, it would reduce the visibility of my pithy responses! I only downvote comments that aren't even worth arguing with. So the very fact that I'm taking the time to respond means I have at least some respect for your argument.
- Numeric types? Who cares? I know min, I know max. I take number from user and insert it in database. For calculations with money, I use integer cents.
- Bit-fields? I work in Java, what are bitfields?
- IP addresses? I am web dev loper, not network engineer. I don't need to deal with netmasks.
- Cryptography? Me no understand. Me use Let's Encrypt. Is secure, no?
- Compression? Browser do gzip for me. Me no care.
- Colors? I pick the nice color from the color wheel.
- Binary? What is binary? I only use binary when I want users to upload a file. Then I put the files on S3.
Well I do embedded dev as a hobby now so I know this stuff. But for a long time I didn't know how many bits were in a byte simply because I never really needed that knowledge.
Interesting term to conflate with "developer".
You don't have to be a "competent software engineer" to be a developer, and in fact, we were never talking about being a "competent software engineer".
These developers do not get jobs as "competent software engineer"s, do not train to be a "competent software engineer", and do not care about being a "competent software engineer". And yet they make things that work perfectly fine! I'm sorry that you think handling PII or having a career (ooo) has anything to do with being a "competent software engineer".
> But we're talking about career software developers here.
I don't remember the name of this fallacy but it sucks, knock it off.
And for a long time, I've just never needed to learn about how many bits were in a byte.
The only time I've ever needed to deal with individual bits in Java was when I was working with flags or parsing binary formats. Both of which are extremely rare when doing generic server dev.
You can even do rudimentary binary reverse engineering without any knowledge of bits. I remember running programs through a disassembler, looking for offending JMPs and then patching them out in a hex editor with 0x90.
Not having knowledge is not a problem as long as you know that you are missing that knowledge.
You have an artificially high bar so you can gatekeep people from being smart and be the arbiter of who's smart and who's not. What you don't realize is most people don't give a crap and easily hundreds of billions worth of software is sold every year by developers who don't know about anything you mentioned.
Your attitude is also inappropriate for a place called "hacker news" where people are resourceful try to do the most with whatever they have. Maybe you want to go to /r/compsci
The actual choice of what we consider part of the "core" CS curriculum is pretty arbitrary. Why do we consider, say, binary part of that but semantics not? Would it be "gatekeeping" to say that you can't be a good programmer without a passing knowledge of, say, operational and denotational semantics? Do you really have a "complete" CS education without it?
Reread my comment I never said binary in-and-of itself is "deep" knowledge. I said not knowing it is a proxy for a lack of CS knowledge more generally.
You're both right and wrong.
Principles are a lot of cognitive debt to take on, and not strictly necessary to be functional. Literally anybody can sit down with an IDE and write code to merge spreadsheets or whatever the actual business need is. We teach this stuff to anybody with any interest. Kids, even!
If someone thinks they want to be a plumber, they shouldn't start with a 4-year commitment to learning principles of hydraulics and mechanical engineering-- makes much more sense to apprentice, lay some pipe, and if it's the job for you, then go back and learn it at a deeper level. Doing it the other way is why college is so ridiculously expensive and most spend 5 to 6 figures on a major and then go manage at Target.
After failing discrete math three times and giving up, I managed to make it almost 20 years in this industry before needing to learn anything about binary math-- and even then, it was only so I could understand how flags in old MUD code worked, for fun. Truth tables are important, but there has never come a logic problem I couldn't solve by taking a few extra steps to be explicit where you might reduce the logic to a compact blob of symbols. I'll never optimize code as well as someone classically-taught. I don't know what Big-O is-- and outside of a botched Google interview absolutely not a single employer or client has ever given a shit. Nobody has ever been victimized by my code. The "CS" way implies the academic approach is the only way to do things. It's the textbook definition of gatekeeping. All academia did was appropriate and institutionalize experiences yahoos like myself have always learned through ingenuity and trial-and-error.
You've learned more than I do, so you have more tools in your bag. The only thing that sets us apart is that I won't be advancing the industry or publishing anything on arxiv anytime soon. Outside of that, you're going to struggle with quantifying how you're better than the self-taught without resorting to speculation or guild/union mentality (gatekeeping).
You don't know that. Actually all code that is inefficient is victimizing both the user (via performance) and the environment (unnecessary energy usage). I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, I'm just saying we all don't know what we don't know. I'm sure my inefficient code has had many users and electric bills as victims. I released software before that subsequent versions where I had better CS techniques improved 100 fold in performance. I wasted my users' time before I learned how to do it better.
> You've learned more than I do, so you have more tools in your bag. The only thing that sets us apart is that I won't be advancing the industry or publishing anything on arxiv anytime soon. Outside of that, you're going to struggle with quantifying how you're better than the self-taught without resorting to speculation or guild/union mentality (gatekeeping).
You made a lot of assumptions about me without knowing my background. I was a self-taught programmer as a child/teenager and my undergrad degree was in economics, not CS. I went back to school to get a masters in CS which was difficult coming from a self-taught background. I did programming both paid and hobbyist for over a decade before that more formal education. And I write books read largely by self-taught programmers.
Saying a full software development education includes binary and the fundamentals of CS is not gatekeeping, it's a low bar if we don't want inefficient software wasting users time and sucking energy. I'm not saying you have to start there, I'm saying it should be part of your education as a programmer whether self-taught or formally taught.
My point is that most jobs are simple CRUD app jobs or positioning divs on a screen, not deep seeded CS stuff.
It's really not "most jobs." Although I do agree that a CS or software engineering degree is overkill for that type of stuff.
Also, "knowing binary" is a strawman, and not a very good one. A newbie developer getting confused by bit flags isn't a big deal. Point them to Wikipedia and let them read about it.
The much bigger problem is when inexperienced developers go off and write a ton of bad spaghetti code, re-invent a bunch of wheels they never learned about, and generally just write crap because they're clueless about best practices (or even any practices at all). Now the clueless newbie is slowing down everybody else and creating a maintenance nightmare.
TBH, most new developers are pretty bad (self taught, university taught, or whatever). The important thing is having experienced people around to point them in the right direction and help them get "real world" experience.
Gate keeping isn't always a bad thing.
Trivial applications of things that might go in the first couple weeks of an algo class, about the same rate of use.
I always get a little excited when I get to use those things. Like spotting an old acquaintance in a restaurant in another city. "Hey! It's that thing they said was really important but in fact my career would basically be identical if I never learned it at all! Long time no see!"
[EDIT] Still waiting to use math past what I learned in 6th grade, aside from extremely rare use of very simple linear algebra or plugging in stats formulas that I looked up anyway because I don't trust my recollection since I use them so rarely. Doubting I'll even once need any of it before I retire, at this point. Which is great, because I've entirely forgotten all of it, on account of never needing it.
This strawman is used in several comments. CS is not "some old knowledge you might never use". Knowing that it's way faster to search by key in a hashmap rather than iterating through a whole array is useful. Knowing why it's a bad practice not to have primary key (and other DB knowledge) is useful. Knowing the stages of a HTTP request is useful.
You can get a job and actually do some productive work without any of that, but that some point not knowing all those basics is going to harm your work.
Pro tip for anyone working w/ junior devs, especially those who came through bootcamps and the like: you can point them to CS knowledge without actually calling it CS.
Knowing what binary is lets you generate smooth sounding sentences about it, which someone else who also only knows what binary is accepts as true.
Learning binary lets you actually exploit its properties in a solution.
Really? Binary isn't a language like Python, it's a notation; either you understand it or you don't (you could say it's 'binary', I suppose). If you don't understand it, you don't know what it is.
I... guess?
But the full explanation of binary is only a paragraph long. At a certain point that seems like something you'd have to avoid on purpose.
Been doing this for almost 30 years now, about 15 of those professionally. I think the last time I used binary was in a microcontrollers class in high school.
Even in college, yeah we talked a lot about binary, we learned the single most useful thing in my career – truth tables – and we dived deep into how CPUs toss bits around. Did we ever use binary for anything practical? No of course not, that’s what the compiler is for.
I mean I guess the real question is: What does “learn binary” even mean? Knowing it exists? That’s easy. Knowing that your code is eventually all binary? Yeah great. Knowing how NAND gates and such work? Well that’s discrete mathematics, bool algebra, quantum physics, circuit design, and whatever field of math talks about translating problems from one to another, not “binary”. Being able to calculate, by hand, numbers from binary to octal and decimal? Meh you can have a computer do that or google the algorithm when you need it. Does “learning binary” mean memorizing the ASCII table so you can read hex dumps or whatever? Maybe, doubt a lot of modern engineers still do that tho.
How to tell people you have never implemented anything performance sensitive in your life without spelling it out bluntly in a nutshell. The code of any popular image processing/decoder/encoder/compression/cryptographic libraries is littered with the use of bit operators because they operate at the fundamental building block level of computing, they are the most efficient and the "sufficiently smart compiler" that supposedly always produces the best interpretation is a lie. You merely need to skim through any implementation of jpeg, of h264 or anything that actually matters in this world to see the practical application of working on bits in the real world.
But sure, understanding computer architecture is meaningless. Trust the compiler. Thank gods I can still see stutters scrolling a web page on a 16 core CPU with 64gb of ram. I don't know how I could live my life if people actually knew how to make proper programs!
And that’s okay. Millions of engineers work on software that leverages those fine-tuned optimizations. Hundreds of engineers make them.
Plus I grew up in an era of cheap compute. Everything got faster every 18 months for free. Even now computers as a whole keep getting faster and faster despite the cap on single core performance.
Even at my relatively high level, the performance concerns I spent months learning about in 2005, just don’t matter anymore when you can get a single server with terabytes of ram and petaflops of compute.
99% of [user facing] code just isn’t performance bound these days. What does it matter if your loop takes 10ms or 20ms when the data is a 300ms network call away
If you arent working close to hardware, then for example doing bitwise operations may be really rare.
I don't think I've met a problem that required them even once during my first few years as SE.
I've had CS degree and years of experience and I werent proficient with those, I needed to write it down in steps
and then I started working closer to hardware where those operations were common and I've learned it
I don't even remember whether we were doing them in school
There's difference between "do you understand this if ladder" or "can you simplify this boolean expression"
and "clear bits 3, 25, 26, 27 of this register and set bits 25, 26, 27 to value 0b101"
I'm not saying that this is hard or something, just the 3rd thing is really rare unless you work close to hardware or some other specific tasks
If I recall correctly, we only spent a few minutes on it in a larger lesson about different schemes for representing numbers in Comp Sci I. I don't think I've performed binary arithmetic since that class, but it's good to know how it works and I could always look up/figure out how to do those calculations again if I needed to.
Why exactly is it “good to know how it works” if you literally have never used that knowledge? Why is it “something you want to get a handle on pretty quickly” if you don’t touch binary?
Are there places where it would come up? Most certainly. Is it required learning for every single dev out there? Highly debatable.
The problem is that this is the sort of foundational knowledge that isn't easily gained through the learn-as-needed approach that applies to higher level things. Most people can notice when they don't know how to use a library. It's probably not obvious to most people who don't already know about it that their computer can handle numbers wrong.
0.1+0.2=0.30000000000004 is not obvious? When a floating point error happens, it’s quite plainly obvious. At that point, someone would look up a SO article like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/588004/is-floating-point... and learn about it. And from there, FPE mitigations.
Would you get to the mitigations faster if you knew binary? Sure, the first time you ever hit it. But that seems to be bottom of the barrel optimization, IMO.
You're right, of course. This would be only marginally faster if the person knew binary. That said, there's a large swath of very similar things that crop up where the person benefits from a familiarity with the fundamentals of computing. There's enough of these things that a reasonable person might conclude that a software engineer benefits from such a knowledge base inside their head. That way a person can benefit from all those marginal gains at once.
Searching “why is my arithmetic operation not rounded”, I got https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/floatingpoint.html as the third answer. I obviously can’t unlearn what floating point arithmetic is, but it feels like someone without any knowledge of it would likely be able to get a similar result relatively quickly as long as they are good at searching for answers (a much more important skill, IMO, which should be considered foundational)
> That said, there's a large swath of very similar things that crop up where the person benefits from a familiarity with the fundamentals of computing.
We’re talking specifically about binary, not fundamentals in general. Some fundamental knowledge is more important than others, and I posit that binary is on the lower end of that spectrum.
I don't think we're actually talking specifically about binary. I am treating the reference to binary as a stand-in for the mathematical fundamentals of computing, rather than a narrow comment on understanding binary and bitwise operations.
"why is my arithmetic operation not rounded" seems like something anyone facing the problem would ask. That's pretty much the root issue in words.
> I don't think we're actually talking specifically about binary.
I mean, that is literally what the thread you replied to was discussing.
The comment I replied to explicitly talks about binary and their use of it, the comment they replied to originally also specifically calls out the OP’s quote which talks directly about binary. You can choose to deviate from that if you want to make a point, but the thread has always explicitly been about binary and that is what we should actually be discussing.
The OP's quote is "fundamentals of computing, like binary..." It seems reasonable for a person to think the discussion is about "fundamentals of computing" more generally than the specific example given of "binary". More precisely, the fact that a thread caught on to one specific aspect of the discussion doesn't mean that a commenter can't keep in mind the greater context.
For the sake of debate: call me old-fashioned, but I don't ever want to rely on code from a "developer" who isn't familiar with binary notation.
You should be judging the code, not the person who wrote it.
For most of that software, of course, I'm not in a position to judge the developer either; but if all I know is that the developer isn't familiar with binary and hex, then I wouldn't expect her to be competent to write, for example, a brochure website, let alone a webserver. URL encoding depends on hex. Debugging often depends on hex. Arithmetic overflow and carry are binary. Twos-complement notation for signed integers is a binary convention.
I wouldn't hire a developer who couldn't explain binary notation. In fact I don't think I've ever met one like that.
As I suggested, perhaps I'm old-fashioned.
So, should this new programmer start there, or start with binary?
The new programmer should start with the life skills. As a toddler. They should also learn the alphabet and how to wipe their own ass. Why do you think this is a gotcha question?
Before it was "learn C before learning Python" but some people didn't love that either...I guess my point is, we've been moving to higher and higher abstractions ever since computer programming was invented, the next abstraction is probably going to be talking to an AI to write some code that you need to vet, the above is just marketing speak for that.
>Made with in
How did all the haze treats you yesterday?
Thanks for asking. I didn't leave my apartment. Hope everyone who is forced to be outside for work is safe, and this passes soon.
But software engineers aren't the only people using python. I work with data scientists - with degrees in data engineering from computer science departments in very good universities - and I am certain that they believe a computer to be a magical box. I know for sure they're terrified of binary. Honestly, I'm looking forward to the day that they actually use functions and classes properly.
I wish I was exaggerating, I really do. It'd make my life easier. And it is no surprise - I've seen the supplementary material attached to papers that come out of those departments. I won't go into too much detail, but I don't know how any codebase could more closely resemble a house of cards and still function.
They still have successful careers in what they're good at. After all, one of the main reasons that python is so successful is that it can be used by people who don't know much - or care much - about programming. It can obviously be used by far more capable hands to do many more things, but for applied tasks it takes the pain out of learning something that they consider tangential.
I’m not arguing that someone shouldn’t eventually teach themselves more fundamentals as they mature their skillset, but most modern languages are so many abstractions above binary that it’s more of a distraction while learning about the basics of code in the context of real world use cases.
Understanding assembly on some level is in a similar category.
I think of this more as an avenue for specialization. One need not learn these things to get started, but they may very well need these things if they want to continue their journey past a certain point.
I taught myself programming at age 12, well before undergrad.
If I'd been forced to learn binary before I could make websites and games, I would have given up. I might have even avoided programming forever.
I think the very first thing someone should learn is the fastest path to build something that interests and delights them. Theory can come later, when they're ready to appreciate it.
This doesn't work for everybody!
Let people learn in the direction that interests them. The highest energy reward function first.
Once they feel rewarded, then let them learn theory. They'll have a deeper appreciation and the stamina to press deeper.
I get your point. But you can't convince me that teaching binary before the fun parts of programming is the most effective way to bring more people into the subject matter.
It's like trying to onboard game developers with linear algebra before they play around with pygame.
Fun first, rigor once they're hooked on the magic.
[1] (Tongue in cheek, obviously.)
Sure, you can do that, but you can't convince me that that's not troubling.
Same as most of the rest of primary and (especially) secondary school math, really. I doubt 1% of recent high school grads can tell you a single reason why anyone should care about quadratic equations, even though they likely spent months of their lives jacking around with them (for unclear reasons). Most of it's just taught is extremely-painful-to-learn trivia. Trig and calc get a little bit of justification & application, but not much. Stats probably comes off the best, as far as kids having even half a clue WTF they can do with it after the class ends.
That's weird. When I was in school in the UK (1960..1974) mathematics was illustrated with practical applications. This was especially so as we progressed into more sophisticated physics and chemistry.
But yes, we'd see some applications of usually limited and relatively simple math from e.g. calculus or algebra in other classes, which typically amounted to plugging values into a handful of formulas (which, to be fair to those classes, is what the vast majority of "using math" is in the adult world, aside from basic arithmetic). Not in math class, though, and not at all for many topics.
My first program was Machine Code, designed on a pad of lined paper, and punched directly into RAM, via a hex keypad.
These days, I write Swift. It's nice to not need to deal with the way Machine Code works, but I'm glad I learned it.
That said, everything we learn takes up NVR, so there's a strong argument to be had, against the need to learn below a certain fundamental floor.
Yup. That's also where I started. In fact, I still own one of these in mint condition:
https://www.hewlettpackardhistory.com/item/making-a-case/
I truly believe the low level fundamentals are crucially important. Even today, in the days of Python and Javascript.
Not to go too far, about a year ago I was working on an embedded board we designed which used MicroPython. The communications protocol required IBM CRC-16 to be calculated. MicroPython could not run this calculation fast enough. Since MicroPython allows you to insert code in assembler, I just wrote the CRC routine (an many others) in ARM assembler. The performance boost was, as one would expect, massive. Writing the code wasn't a problem at all given my background.
Having this knowledge also allows you to reach for optimizations that someone who has only seen high level languages and (as posters elsewhere in the thread have revealed) don't understand low level code or even binary. A simple example of this is that comparing to zero is faster than comparing to a value. The simple explanation being that you have to juggle registers and perhaps even read and store that value from memory every time you go around a loop. All processors have the equivalent of a JZ and JNZ (jump if zero, jump if not zero) instruction, which does not require anything to be fetched from memory or register swapping. Of course, this is processor and task dependent.
And then I wonder about such things as DeMorgan, bit-wise operations, masking, etc. I was surprised to read some of the comments on this thread about people not being comfortable with binary beyond 1=true and 0=false. I don't understand how someone can develop non-trivial software without having a solid foundation. I mean, even for CSS you should understand what "FFC21A" or "3FE" means, where it comes from and how to work with these numbers.
I didn't learn binary before Python. I learned Lua before Python. But now I'm messing around with low-level C++, and Rust.
Where you started doesn't necessarily have anything to do with where you are now.